The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[nirvana]

I don't remember Northern Ireland even being discussed pre-referendum (a weakness of all sides, how the debate was framed, the problem of a remain/leave simplistic question)

It wasn't really mentioned on here until about 18 months ago

Its been obvious over the last twelve months that there is no solution and its a show-stopper. Even less prospect of any solution where the hardline DUP hold the balance of power (ridiculous with hindsight: early election and terrible campaignthat lost their majority)

Yet the ERG won't give way at all, only interested in the theory of leaving the EU and the dogmatism of the misguided, rather than the pragmatism of getting something over the line and then going from there

I think in a few years we'll look-back and think T May did a remarkable job to even get it this close (as contrarian as this may seem now)

I think we'll consider her as far more of a politician than Cameron, Corbyn (standing by twiddling his thumbs), and Boris, Davis, Fox, Rees-Mogg and the hardliners, especially once economic reality hits after next March

A coupla months back I coudln't help myself and went back to quite a few of the pages in the run up to the referendum. It surprised me, but there were a few mentions about the border prior. Also, in the immediate aftermath, the tone between leavers and remainers on here was much more conciliatory - noticeable how, if we're remotely representative, things are more divided than then.

[MANTIS01]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

Who are the people who have said EU reform is not required? There you lot go again, creating positions for us that we never took ourselves. I’m sure most agree with you that reform is needed. I certainly do. So what? We should cut our own throats because an organisation we belong to hasn’t undertaken necessary reforms?

it was pokerpops

I said 100% agreed EU reform was required

think you've created a position for me there buddy

[nirvana]

I don't remember Northern Ireland even being discussed pre-referendum (a weakness of all sides, how the debate was framed, the problem of a remain/leave simplistic question)

It wasn't really mentioned on here until about 18 months ago

Its been obvious over the last twelve months that there is no solution and its a show-stopper. Even less prospect of any solution where the hardline DUP hold the balance of power (ridiculous with hindsight: early election and terrible campaignthat lost their majority)

Yet the ERG won't give way at all, only interested in the theory of leaving the EU and the dogmatism of the misguided, rather than the pragmatism of getting something over the line and then going from there

I think in a few years we'll look-back and think T May did a remarkable job to even get it this close (as contrarian as this may seem now)

I think we'll consider her as far more of a politician than Cameron, Corbyn (standing by twiddling his thumbs), and Boris, Davis, Fox, Rees-Mogg and the hardliners, especially once economic reality hits after next March

Absolutely. I think she has done an incredible job, playing a long game in the face of opposition and ridicule from all sides. She made some whopping mistakes, not just the election, but she has toughed it out, despite losing some key allies and, while I don’t agree with all her positions, she has manoeuvred us away from the extremist outcome. Still plenty of brinkmanship and opportunities for everything to go wrong to come, so this may be premature, but impressive so far. I expect to be in the minority on this one.

I can take this ticket entirely - I really admire her on a number of levels - she can't be in this post still because she loves doing it or because of all the credit she gets, or the long term prospects (too many Tory bastards, from Soubry to Johnson) or because she's power crazy. Genuinely think she's in this out of a sense of duty and knowledge that, when you look around, it could be being led in a much much worse fashion.

[kukushkin88]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

What reform did you have in mind? It’s a body that constantly changes and evolves, we elect the people that are responsible for bringing about that change when it is needed. It seems an OK system to me. I’d like to keep it the same.

mate earlier in this thread you said the UK were constantly objecting to all these proposed changes and evolutions, the only dissenting voice.

Yo...if the people we elect are always objecting...why'd you like to keep it the same?

First sentence: I didn’t.

Second sentence: It’s a hell of a muddled sentence but if you mean what I think you mean. That’s just democracy, we elect people, they then debate issues and make decisions on our behalf. It’s a deeply flawed system but it’s the best we have.

Although it’s all a bit nonsensical, right from when you made up the first sentence.

[nirvana]

I don't remember Northern Ireland even being discussed pre-referendum (a weakness of all sides, how the debate was framed, the problem of a remain/leave simplistic question)

It wasn't really mentioned on here until about 18 months ago

Its been obvious over the last twelve months that there is no solution and its a show-stopper. Even less prospect of any solution where the hardline DUP hold the balance of power (ridiculous with hindsight: early election and terrible campaignthat lost their majority)

Yet the ERG won't give way at all, only interested in the theory of leaving the EU and the dogmatism of the misguided, rather than the pragmatism of getting something over the line and then going from there

I think in a few years we'll look-back and think T May did a remarkable job to even get it this close (as contrarian as this may seem now)

I think we'll consider her as far more of a politician than Cameron, Corbyn (standing by twiddling his thumbs), and Boris, Davis, Fox, Rees-Mogg and the hardliners, especially once economic reality hits after next March

As I already mentioned, agree with your thoughts on May. But I think you are wrong to damn people like Rees Mogg and some other hardliners. Their position has some integrity- they have always believed that leaving on WTO terms would be a perfectly acceptable outcome and have never hidden that. Another 114 MPs who voted against the bill on Article 50 also have a decent degree of integrity imho.

The 498 MPs (sadly for May, this includes her) who voted for the Article 50 bill voted for a 'blind' Brexit then and it's a bit rich to make this a bone of contention now. This is why the Labour position, in particular,  today is so disingenuous.

For a short while I was lulled into thinking a second vote was a reasonable idea, given the apparent mess we're in...but now feel firmly that this is a massive cop out by the politicians and we should try to avoid this option and a get out of jail card for MPs of all parties, at all costs. I'd like to see a general election and see what the major parties promise with regards to Brexit. If there is any integrity at all in politics at least one of the major parties would break ranks and stand on a remain platform - in line with the majority thoughts of their parliamentary party. It would be particularly interesting to see what the Labour position would be on Brexit now

[Pokerpops]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

Who are the people who have said EU reform is not required? There you lot go again, creating positions for us that we never took ourselves. I’m sure most agree with you that reform is needed. I certainly do. So what? We should cut our own throats because an organisation we belong to hasn’t undertaken necessary reforms?

it was pokerpops

I said 100% agreed EU reform was required

think you've created a position for me there buddy

Oh such fun.
If you can find any post from me, as Pokerpops or as David3103, that says that EU reform isn’t needed i will play the APAT tournament this weekend in a dress.

In a shockingly accurate use of numbers I am 100% certain that this is not something I have ever said. Nor have I implied it.

[Pokerpops]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

What reform did you have in mind? It’s a body that constantly changes and evolves, we elect the people that are responsible for bringing about that change when it is needed. It seems an OK system to me. I’d like to keep it the same.

We don’t elect the people that are responsible for changing the EU. That’s one of the major issues that makes it a less than satisfactory organisation.

[BigAdz]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

What reform did you have in mind? It’s a body that constantly changes and evolves, we elect the people that are responsible for bringing about that change when it is needed. It seems an OK system to me. I’d like to keep it the same.

We don’t elect the people that are responsible for changing the EU. That’s one of the major issues that makes it a less than satisfactory organisation.

I thought this but surely Kush cant be wrong?!

[kukushkin88]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

What reform did you have in mind? It’s a body that constantly changes and evolves, we elect the people that are responsible for bringing about that change when it is needed. It seems an OK system to me. I’d like to keep it the same.

We don’t elect the people that are responsible for changing the EU. That’s one of the major issues that makes it a less than satisfactory organisation.

I thought this but surely Kush cant be wrong?!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/07/14/does-it-make-sense-to-refer-to-eu-officials-as-unelected-bureaucrats

[kukushkin88]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

What reform did you have in mind? It’s a body that constantly changes and evolves, we elect the people that are responsible for bringing about that change when it is needed. It seems an OK system to me. I’d like to keep it the same.

We don’t elect the people that are responsible for changing the EU. That’s one of the major issues that makes it a less than satisfactory organisation.

I thought this but surely Kush cant be wrong?!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/07/14/does-it-make-sense-to-refer-to-eu-officials-as-unelected-bureaucrats

Looks straightforward, this will probably be one that doesn’t get discussed again, convenient that.

[BigAdz]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

What reform did you have in mind? It’s a body that constantly changes and evolves, we elect the people that are responsible for bringing about that change when it is needed. It seems an OK system to me. I’d like to keep it the same.

We don’t elect the people that are responsible for changing the EU. That’s one of the major issues that makes it a less than satisfactory organisation.

I thought this but surely Kush cant be wrong?!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/07/14/does-it-make-sense-to-refer-to-eu-officials-as-unelected-bureaucrats

Looks straightforward, this will probably be one that doesn’t get discussed again, convenient that.

I know the last Gen Election there was a 70% voter turnout.

I suspect it was less than half this for MEPs.

Moot to describe anyone as being elected on that basis....

[RickBFA]

Great thread as always. I hope it continues without some of the daft name calling and belittling of views that are different from each of our own.

Shame when it gets like that as people stop posting.

Bit of mutual respect would be good all round I think.


And it ain’t over just yet. Plenty more drama to come.

[kukushkin88]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

What reform did you have in mind? It’s a body that constantly changes and evolves, we elect the people that are responsible for bringing about that change when it is needed. It seems an OK system to me. I’d like to keep it the same.

We don’t elect the people that are responsible for changing the EU. That’s one of the major issues that makes it a less than satisfactory organisation.

I thought this but surely Kush cant be wrong?!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/07/14/does-it-make-sense-to-refer-to-eu-officials-as-unelected-bureaucrats

Looks straightforward, this will probably be one that doesn’t get discussed again, convenient that.

I know the last Gen Election there was a 70% voter turnout.

I suspect it was less than half this for MEPs.

Moot to describe anyone as being elected on that basis....

What voter turnout do we need for the result to count in your eyes?

[Woodsey]

Great thread as always. I hope it continues without some of the daft name calling and belittling of views that are different from each of our own.

Shame when it gets like that as people stop posting.

Bit of mutual respect would be good all round I think.


And it ain’t over just yet. Plenty more drama to come.

Shut it c**t 

[MintTrav]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

What reform did you have in mind? It’s a body that constantly changes and evolves, we elect the people that are responsible for bringing about that change when it is needed. It seems an OK system to me. I’d like to keep it the same.

mate earlier in this thread you said the UK were constantly objecting to all these proposed changes and evolutions, the only dissenting voice.

Yo...if the people we elect are always objecting...why'd you like to keep it the same?

First sentence: I didn’t.

Second sentence: It’s a hell of a muddled sentence but if you mean what I think you mean. That’s just democracy, we elect people, they then debate issues and make decisions on our behalf. It’s a deeply flawed system but it’s the best we have.

Although it’s all a bit nonsensical, right from when you made up the first sentence.

That was me.

Or it might have been Pokerpops.

No, it was me.