The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[kukushkin88]

A key part of discussing something, I think,  is trying to limit the number of times you make up what the other person said, maybe even don’t do it at all. Can you think why that might erode the quality of debate?

Also, it has nothing to do with wings, that’s how you’ve been deceived in to this extraordinary level of ignorance. It is not a battle between two sides. It should only be about what’s best for most of the people most of the time.

[MANTIS01]

I often think Britain's reputation is still plagued by Empire & slavery. When I read commentary from other countries it's mentioned often enough. That was a time when we firmly put commercial interest ahead of people and equality. As far as I can see the Remain argument has always been squarely about our own commercial interest.

Why not start a new chapter in the world where we put people and equality first? Initially at our own expense. All people equal. All nations have access to our markets. Everybody considered equally if they wish to settle in our country. Ethical, free and fair trade for all. The world is changing it's view on plastic and consumption. The flow of opinion seems more ethical. Why not start a new chapter where we lead the world away from closed unions and embrace freedom and fairness. Maybe that catches on and we find ourselves way ahead of the shackled failing EU in a new era. 

[Longines]

"If we need to leave with no deal and negotiate a free trade agreement during the transition period, so be it. Let’s be clear and honest and tell the EU that’s what we are prepared to do."

David Davis 19 Nov 2018

This would be the transition period that only occurs as part of a deal is it? I'm not entirely sure how he remembers to breathe in and out.

[nirvana]

If there's a second vote and Leave win again do Remain accept the result this time? Or do they start again with the moaning, demonstrations and marches through London?

If there's a General Election would it be possible to have another one if the result is deemed unsuitable?

Incidentally I was talking to a guy who owns a wine import business. He told me when he ships wine from South Africa it MUST go to France first. Does anybody know if that's true and why?

I guess it would be wrong to frame it as Ref2. It’s a wholly different event and we aren’t leavers or remainers going in to it, it won’t be the same question. We should try and stop thinking of ourselves as leavers and remainers and try to go back to being people who make good level headed decisions in the best interests of ourselves and everyone else. People now have knowledge on the subject, for all practical purposes no one did before. I think sentiment or as you called it emotion was the overriding influence on both sides.

I voted remain because all of the evidence I have says humans are at their best when they’re characterised by togetherness, inclusiveness, diversity. I just love a diverse, cosmopolitan society. The vote might not make us less of either of those things but the sentiment of the Leave vote was contrary to the principles that are important to me.

I love an inclusive diverse society too.

Conceptually as a free nation we could deal with any country we wanted, reach out and include everybody around the world.

As part of a closed, restricted club we can't.

How is having limitations on inclusion and diversity beneficial to inclusion and diversity?  

I didn’t say it is. Are we saying the Leave vote is a mandate to relax/remove the rules on immigration? If you are, I and many others just might have got muddled up at some stage.

If one believes there should be any form of immigration control at all, and I think this must be be the view of a very large majority, then it only becomes a question of whether we believe the benefits of uncapped immigration from a specific set of countries outweighs the perceived costs. Our 'success' as the most dynamic economy in Europe from a business and economic perspective ensured we attracted many people and this, in turn, ensured that there was a legitimate debate around the benefits / costs of uncapped immigration.

The strongest voices against ending free movement are embodied by groups like the CBI which tells me all I need to know about who benefits most from uncapped immigration.

Freedom of movement sounds like a much more attractive and egalitarian principle than it is - for the most part it just means trafficking of low waged labour but without the need for a bit of paperwork and approval. People who want to move for non economic reasons ( as well as sought after, highly skilled people) will still move quite freely across Europe (and the rest of the world) as they always have done

[kukushkin88]

If there's a second vote and Leave win again do Remain accept the result this time? Or do they start again with the moaning, demonstrations and marches through London?

If there's a General Election would it be possible to have another one if the result is deemed unsuitable?

Incidentally I was talking to a guy who owns a wine import business. He told me when he ships wine from South Africa it MUST go to France first. Does anybody know if that's true and why?

I guess it would be wrong to frame it as Ref2. It’s a wholly different event and we aren’t leavers or remainers going in to it, it won’t be the same question. We should try and stop thinking of ourselves as leavers and remainers and try to go back to being people who make good level headed decisions in the best interests of ourselves and everyone else. People now have knowledge on the subject, for all practical purposes no one did before. I think sentiment or as you called it emotion was the overriding influence on both sides.

I voted remain because all of the evidence I have says humans are at their best when they’re characterised by togetherness, inclusiveness, diversity. I just love a diverse, cosmopolitan society. The vote might not make us less of either of those things but the sentiment of the Leave vote was contrary to the principles that are important to me.

I love an inclusive diverse society too.

Conceptually as a free nation we could deal with any country we wanted, reach out and include everybody around the world.

As part of a closed, restricted club we can't.

How is having limitations on inclusion and diversity beneficial to inclusion and diversity?  

I didn’t say it is. Are we saying the Leave vote is a mandate to relax/remove the rules on immigration? If you are, I and many others just might have got muddled up at some stage.

If one believes there should be any form of immigration control at all, and I think this must be be the view of a very large majority, then it only becomes a question of whether we believe the benefits of uncapped immigration from a specific set of countries outweighs the perceived costs. Our 'success' as the most dynamic economy in Europe from a business and economic perspective ensured we attracted many people and this, in turn, ensured that there was a legitimate debate around the benefits / costs of uncapped immigration.

The strongest voices against ending free movement are embodied by groups like the CBI which tells me all I need to know about who benefits most from uncapped immigration.

Freedom of movement sounds like a much more attractive and egalitarian principle than it is - for the most part it just means trafficking of low waged labour but without the need for a bit of paperwork and approval. People who want to move for non economic reasons will still move quite freely across Europe, as they always have done

I agree with plenty of that. Ultimately globalisation is only some sort of ‘Rich People of the World Unite’ arrangement. The CBI would quite reasonably say that their desire to retain freedom of movement is primarily because it’s always been considered an absolute condition on staying in the single market.

[kukushkin88]

I often think Britain's reputation is still plagued by Empire & slavery. When I read commentary from other countries it's mentioned often enough. That was a time when we firmly put commercial interest ahead of people and equality. As far as I can see the Remain argument has always been squarely about our own commercial interest.

Why not start a new chapter in the world where we put people and equality first? Initially at our own expense. All people equal. All nations have access to our markets. Everybody considered equally if they wish to settle in our country. Ethical, free and fair trade for all. The world is changing it's view on plastic and consumption. The flow of opinion seems more ethical. Why not start a new chapter where we lead the world away from closed unions and embrace freedom and fairness. Maybe that catches on and we find ourselves way ahead of the shackled failing EU in a new era. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wlR0KElxxVg

It’s another revelation, putting people and equality first was a key driver behind Brexit. Why did no one ever mention this before?

[nirvana]

This is from a poll in Open Europe - it implies very high numbers of people support immigration control as a principle. So it's probably much more incumbent on remainers to explain why we should forego this principled objection to free movement (which 68% of remainers believe as well) to obtain a set of nebulous benefits. Far more so than someone having to explain that they support the principle (even if it is based on their inherent racism or xenophobia).

There was overwhelming support for only allowing people into the UK who have specific job offers (71% vs 15% disagree). This policy received overwhelming support from both Leave (81%) and Remain voters (68%). There is also a Leave – Remain consensus on allowing high-skilled migrants but restricting low-skilled immigration (75% support from Leavers and 65% from Remainers)

[kukushkin88]

This is from a poll in Open Europe - it implies very high numbers of people support immigration control as a principle. So it's probably much more incumbent on remainers to explain why we should forego this principled objection to free movement (which 68% of remainers believe as well) to obtain a set of nebulous benefits. Far more so than someone having to explain that they support the principle (even if it is based on their inherent racism or xenophobia).

There was overwhelming support for only allowing people into the UK who have specific job offers (71% vs 15% disagree). This policy received overwhelming support from both Leave (81%) and Remain voters (68%). There is also a Leave – Remain consensus on allowing high-skilled migrants but restricting low-skilled immigration (75% support from Leavers and 65% from Remainers)

Let’s keep migrants and refugee’s separate, I kind of know that we do but let’s write it down anyway. I feel that immigration in Europe/Uk (everywhere) could be handled better but it’s complex and tough to get right.

I don’t think polls have that much value in determining the best course of action in a complex situation, similar to referenda, people simply don’t understand well enough. Parliamentary Democracy is bad but better than anything else, governance by straw polls and referendums not so much imo.

[nirvana]

We can probably all agree that May working to sell the deal to the public based almost exclusively on the end to free movement is pretty base and objectionable.  

On a broader note, when the deal was first announced it felt like a good thing and perhaps could prove to be a rallying point to collectively move forward. As more detail emerges though it gets harder to support I'm finding

I'm no particular fan of re-nationalising anything but I don't think we should disempower ourselves from doing so. Not being able to leave a customs union unilaterally, if that's our choice, seems a step too far in terms of compromise.

It's so hard to pick your way through the spin, deceit and obfuscation and find a sensible view on all this - perhaps no wonder that people will tend to revert to a simple remain/no deal perspective.

Read this the other day:

If you bend everything totally, blindly and wilfully towards the attainment of a goal, and only that goal, you will never be able to discover if another goal would serve you, and the world, better.

This kind of feels where we're at with FBPE remaniac nutters and the likes of the ERG.

[nirvana]

This is from a poll in Open Europe - it implies very high numbers of people support immigration control as a principle. So it's probably much more incumbent on remainers to explain why we should forego this principled objection to free movement (which 68% of remainers believe as well) to obtain a set of nebulous benefits. Far more so than someone having to explain that they support the principle (even if it is based on their inherent racism or xenophobia).

There was overwhelming support for only allowing people into the UK who have specific job offers (71% vs 15% disagree). This policy received overwhelming support from both Leave (81%) and Remain voters (68%). There is also a Leave – Remain consensus on allowing high-skilled migrants but restricting low-skilled immigration (75% support from Leavers and 65% from Remainers)

Let’s keep migrants and refugee’s separate, I kind of know that we do but let’s write it down anyway. I feel that immigration in Europe/Uk (everywhere) could be handled better but it’s complex and tough to get right.

I don’t think polls have that much value in determining the best course of action in a complex situation, similar to referenda, people simply don’t understand well enough. Parliamentary Democracy is bad but better than anything else, governance by straw polls and referendums not so much imo.

Agreed a poll shouldn't necessarily dictate what we actually do. Yep, I'm no lover of referenda

[Pokerpops]

Spain/Gibraltar apart, the EU 27 countries are proving harder line than Barnier..

Theresa May's frantic bid to save Brexit deal as Merkel threatens to ditch summit

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-mays-frantic-bid-save-13625220 …

It is a challenge to get those 27 countries to agree to anything!!!

Which is one of the reasons why I'm an idiot.

FYP

Seems a sub-standard effort, did you read it before you hit the ‘Post’ button?

The fact that 27 disparate nations with very different political views and equally diverse economic needs can’t agree on much is in no way the reason for my idiocy.

[TightEnd]

Theresa May's letter to the nation

[TightEnd]

(catnip)

High Court ruling could declare Brexit ‘void’ as early as Christmas

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-void-high-court-ruling-arron-banks-investigation-when-december-christmas-a8649001.html

[TightEnd]

Spain gets its veto on any future EU trade deal for Gibraltar after all - an original A50 demand.

HMG opposed this for two years, but concedes defeat at the very last moment.

The Gibraltar situation is actually worse than Northern Ireland. We all understand that is complex, with a sizeable Catholic minority. But Gibraltar is unambiguous. 98% want to stay as effectively part of Britain.

[TightEnd]

Ultimately if you want to preserve Gibraltarians' rights of self-determination, you need to invent a time machine and get a Remain vote in June 2016. Even reversing Brexit won't fix it:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/11/theresa-may-hasnt-sold-out-gibraltar-brexit-vote-did