The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[MANTIS01]

Lamenting the system, lamenting the past

No wonder we aren’t arriving at solutions.

As far as self harm goes the obsession with looking backwards is right up there

you must be looking for a reaction right?

Looking at the past? An older brexit voter's speciality. Empire, street parties, bunting over the street, "we got through the war we will get through this"

Pining for a world that cannot be recreated is a fair part of the 17.4m vote.

The difference in our views are...

I’m reacting to what one person actually wrote

You’re reacting to what you think 17.4m people probably thought

[bobAlike]

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result.

A second referenduum will only tell us what we already know which is the country is split almost straight down the middle by the issue of Brexit"

Hard to disagree with this no?

It is split, yes, but the evidence suggests that the split would now favour a remain outcome which entirely contradicts the 'will of the people' argument that keeps being used.

Consequently, putting this to the test once again seems the only logical way to move things forward conclusively, in whatever direction, but needs to be done so that whatever conclusion is reached is enacted immediately afterwards.  The vote therefore needs to be framed around either an agreed withdrawal agreement or no deal (having both wouldn't be fair, as it would split the leave vote) vs immediately revoke A50.

If there was no consensus as to what should go on the leave side of the ballot, the question would need to be in two-parts.  Leave vs Revoke, with a follow up vote for method of departure (in which everyone would have a chance to vote, even if they were voting to Remain).

I don't see how doing that can be either undemocratic or unambiguous as to what subsequently happens.  It's certainly better than using a General Election as the vehicle to move things forward.

The problem I have with the second referendum is that since the original vote we have had a bunch of remainers blocking the progress of the withdrawal. In that bunch of remainers we have also had the PM who has absolutely screwed up the negotiations. Of course some people will have changed their minds based on the shit state that we are currently in. The only way forward is to have a leader with the bottle to stand up to the EU and be resolute in the chosen direction.

[TightEnd]

No, a complete misrepresentation

How have remainers been blocking anything?

a deal came back, the hard line brexiters voted against it too. vote in favour (accepting its a staging post), we are out now, all that was required was some compromise and pragmatism (on all sides to be fair)

what do you expect a "leader with bottle" to do to stand up to the EU and realistically succeed? No deal is effectively off the table, WU won't re-open the withdrawal agreement or sell Ireland down the river?

[bobAlike]

No, a complete misrepresentation

How have remainers been blocking anything?

a deal came back, the hard line brexiters voted against it too. vote in favour (accepting its a staging post), we are out now, all that was required was some compromise and pragmatism (on all sides to be fair)

what do you expect a "leader with bottle" to do to stand up to the EU and realistically succeed? No deal is effectively off the table, WU won't re-open the withdrawal agreement or sell Ireland down the river?

I am not a chief negotiator that's for sure, but having a remainer as leader of negotiations when the remainers were kicking up so much fuss from the very start meant this was doomed. A no deal would be bad for everyone and I for one minute dont believe that if the new PM is resolute with the EU then will allow some flexibility even if they say they wont. It just doesn't make any sense.

A deal was blocked because it wasn't any bloody good. The PM thought she knew best, remind me how many times did she try a put it forward. This is exactly my point the remainer PM doesn't want out irrespective of what she was saying. When Cameron stepped down and May took over I thought that it was going to be a good thing that a remainer could bring balance to the table but I was so wrong.

And why is no deal off the table? (Rhetorical question) It's because parliament dont want out because they 'know' what's best. Is that representing the people?

A leader with balls would have succeeded, I, not saying they would have got everything they wanted but there would have been more compromise from the EU based on the simple fact the EU does actually benefit from the UK being a member. Dont forget there will be pain for both parties.


Imagine going for any negotiation without the backing of the team behind you or even playing poker trying to bluff with the worst hand and your mates behind you saying out load 'why you done that with that hand?'

[Jon MW]

..

And why is no deal off the table? (Rhetorical question) It's because parliament dont want out because they 'know' what's best. Is that representing the people?
...

No Deal is off the table because it's a terrible thing to do; doing what is best for the country is what Parliament is meant to be doing.

I can't think of a better way of representing the people then doing things that make the country stronger, and not doing things that actively harm us.

[bobAlike]

..

And why is no deal off the table? (Rhetorical question) It's because parliament dont want out because they 'know' what's best. Is that representing the people?
...

No Deal is off the table because it's a terrible thing to do; doing what is best for the country is what Parliament is meant to be doing.

I can't think of a better way of representing the people then doing things that make the country stronger, and not doing things that actively harm us.

But it is not everyones opinion that its the best thing to do. There are so called experts from both camps. Who knows for sure what will happen? The remain campaign stated many things during the campaign that simply have not happened such as we would be in a recession to mane one.


The point i am really trying to make is that the negotiations have not been strong.

[Jon MW]

..

And why is no deal off the table? (Rhetorical question) It's because parliament dont want out because they 'know' what's best. Is that representing the people?
...

No Deal is off the table because it's a terrible thing to do; doing what is best for the country is what Parliament is meant to be doing.

I can't think of a better way of representing the people then doing things that make the country stronger, and not doing things that actively harm us.

But it is not everyones opinion that its the best thing to do. There are so called experts from both camps. Who knows for sure what will happen? The remain campaign stated many things during the campaign that simply have not happened such as we would be in a recession to mane one.


The point i am really trying to make is that the negotiations have not been strong.

Where are the experts who think the best outcome is leaving with 'No Deal'?

Any links?

[TightEnd]

..

And why is no deal off the table? (Rhetorical question) It's because parliament dont want out because they 'know' what's best. Is that representing the people?
...

No Deal is off the table because it's a terrible thing to do; doing what is best for the country is what Parliament is meant to be doing.

I can't think of a better way of representing the people then doing things that make the country stronger, and not doing things that actively harm us.

But it is not everyones opinion that its the best thing to do. There are so called experts from both camps. Who knows for sure what will happen? The remain campaign stated many things during the campaign that simply have not happened such as we would be in a recession to mane one.


The point i am really trying to make is that the negotiations have not been strong.

May went with strong red lines. brexit means brexit, and especially no freedom of movement. This actually was quite confrontational (from the viewpoint of a wide range of views in parliament) and wasn't very remainer friendly to build a consensus

we hear this "they predicted recession on day one and it never happened" a lot. But never the context.

1 we have the lowest growth rate of any of the G10

2 this despite the BOE propping up the economy with £70bn of Quantitative easing day 1 (pumping money into circulation to boost activity) after the leave vote. This prevented a nasty exogenous shock, which the leave vote might have been

3 The pound has fallen from €1.3 to €1.1 since 2016

4 We have seen lots of signs of corporate distress. Yes some of that is structural changes in places like the high street so you can't say its leave vote related, but for the multinationals all have quoted Brexit and the prospect of it to some extent

and the worst is yet to come ie leaving, yet alone what admittedly may be a slim prospect of no deal.

Its case unproven

[bobAlike]

..

And why is no deal off the table? (Rhetorical question) It's because parliament dont want out because they 'know' what's best. Is that representing the people?
...

No Deal is off the table because it's a terrible thing to do; doing what is best for the country is what Parliament is meant to be doing.

I can't think of a better way of representing the people then doing things that make the country stronger, and not doing things that actively harm us.

But it is not everyones opinion that its the best thing to do. There are so called experts from both camps. Who knows for sure what will happen? The remain campaign stated many things during the campaign that simply have not happened such as we would be in a recession to mane one.


The point i am really trying to make is that the negotiations have not been strong.

Where are the experts who think the best outcome is leaving with 'No Deal'?

Any links?

I have not go the time or the inclination to provide any links but I distinctly remember the likes of George Osbourne stating such drivel as if we voted leave the economy would crash, unemployment would be much higher and all this just for voting leave never mind when we leave (if we leave). They were pretty much wrong predictions then what makes you think they would be right now?

[Marky147]

Isn't he in the muggle camp with 'that twat' who went missing?

[TightEnd]

Here's one Andrew. Literally one minute to find. Not too much effort to give more heft to to your argument

Minford the leading Brexit economist

https://brexitcentral.com/world-trade-deal-brexit-wto-terms-highly-advantageous/

[bobAlike]

..

And why is no deal off the table? (Rhetorical question) It's because parliament dont want out because they 'know' what's best. Is that representing the people?
...

No Deal is off the table because it's a terrible thing to do; doing what is best for the country is what Parliament is meant to be doing.

I can't think of a better way of representing the people then doing things that make the country stronger, and not doing things that actively harm us.

But it is not everyones opinion that its the best thing to do. There are so called experts from both camps. Who knows for sure what will happen? The remain campaign stated many things during the campaign that simply have not happened such as we would be in a recession to mane one.


The point i am really trying to make is that the negotiations have not been strong.

May went with strong red lines. brexit means brexit, and especially no freedom of movement. This actually was quite confrontational (from the viewpoint of a wide range of views in parliament) and wasn't very remainer friendly to build a consensus

we hear this "they predicted recession on day one and it never happened" a lot. But never the context.

1 we have the lowest growth rate of any of the G10

2 this despite the BOE propping up the economy with £70bn of Quantitative easing day 1 (pumping money into circulation to boost activity) after the leave vote. This prevented a nasty exogenous shock, which the leave vote might have been

3 The pound has fallen from €1.3 to €1.1 since 2016

4 We have seen lots of signs of corporate distress. Yes some of that is structural changes in places like the high street so you can't say its leave vote related, but for the multinationals all have quoted Brexit and the prospect of it to some extent

and the worst is yet to come ie leaving, yet alone what admittedly may be a slim prospect of no deal.

Its case unproven

That's exactly right.

[bobAlike]

Here's one Andrew. Literally one minute to find. Not too much effort to give more heft to to your argument

Minford the leading Brexit economist

https://brexitcentral.com/world-trade-deal-brexit-wto-terms-highly-advantageous/

Sorry and thanks for providing that linkTighty I am trying to complete a document in between posts. On that note for the last 4 years I have worked in Germany pretty much for 70% of the time, flying back and forth on a weekly basis. Unselfishly I have probably voted for something that will personally cost me my biggest contract financially but I would still rather be out for the greater good

[TightEnd]

Here's one Andrew. Literally one minute to find. Not too much effort to give more heft to to your argument

Minford the leading Brexit economist

https://brexitcentral.com/world-trade-deal-brexit-wto-terms-highly-advantageous/

Sorry and thanks for providing that linkTighty I am trying to complete a document in between posts. On that note for the last 4 years I have worked in Germany pretty much for 70% of the time, flying back and forth on a weekly basis. Unselfishly I have probably voted for something that will personally cost me my biggest contract financially but I would still rather be out for the greater good

this is illogical, Captain. :-)

[TightEnd]

this is once more very funny

Marina Hyde

My bit on your week in the Tory leadership contest

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/31/opium-drone-no-deal-tory-battle-conservative-leadership-race