The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[TightEnd]

quite difficult to disagree with anything said in this clip isn't it?

https://twitter.com/Independent/status/1134480402561753088

[TightEnd]

^ Fair enough.

point 2 i think a valid counter-point is zero hours contracts etc depress the recorded stats but don't lead to job security etc and (i think) wage growth is lagging inflation so living standards are squeezed y-o-y.

There are very, very few people on zero hours contracts.

There are abuses of it for sure, but the 'dramatic' growth in them is pretty much all down to the fact that they went from almost none to very few.

Oh, and you with your facts facts facts, wtf. :-)

1,800,000 on contracts with no minimum number of hours according to the Guardian’s reporting of ONS figures for 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/23/number-of-zero-hours-contracts-in-uk-rose-by-100000-in-2017-ons

About half that number, 883,000 according to statista
https://www.statista.com/statistics/414896/employees-with-zero-hours-contracts-number/

Really unsure as to why people treat zero hours contracts as a negative, the majority of tradesman have worked like this for centuries, obvs

One of the reasons why they’re viewed negatively is because when there’s no work because of our massively underperforming economy, it allows our government to paint a less than realistic and rosy picture when it come to employment figures. Loads of them will be in relative poverty and plenty in absolute.

Another person that goes way over the top with his language to make his argument more believable.
Since when was our economy massively under performing? Compared to what? The rest of Europe? because I assure you(and I think you know), we are not. The vast majority of the EU would love to have the bouyancy of our economy. It might not be where we want it to be, but we don't operate in a vacuum.

its true though

"In the first six months of 2018, the UK was one of the slowest growing economies in the G7. This is a group of the largest advanced economies in the world and includes Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and the US, alongside the UK.

This is a significant turnaround since the period from 2013 to 2016, where the UK was one of the fastest growing economies."

https://fullfact.org/economy/uk-economic-growth-within-g7/

multiple sources to get that sort of info from

forecasts for 2019 are about 1.3% GDP growth

[Pokerpops]

^ Fair enough.

point 2 i think a valid counter-point is zero hours contracts etc depress the recorded stats but don't lead to job security etc and (i think) wage growth is lagging inflation so living standards are squeezed y-o-y.

There are very, very few people on zero hours contracts.

There are abuses of it for sure, but the 'dramatic' growth in them is pretty much all down to the fact that they went from almost none to very few.

Oh, and you with your facts facts facts, wtf. :-)

1,800,000 on contracts with no minimum number of hours according to the Guardian’s reporting of ONS figures for 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/23/number-of-zero-hours-contracts-in-uk-rose-by-100000-in-2017-ons

About half that number, 883,000 according to statista
https://www.statista.com/statistics/414896/employees-with-zero-hours-contracts-number/

Really unsure as to why people treat zero hours contracts as a negative, the majority of tradesman have worked like this for centuries, obvs

Tradesmen? Do you mean plumbers and electricians and painters and the like? They have control of their marketing and their pricing. Joe Zero Hours at Sports Direct warehouse doesn’t.
Zero Hours Contracts give all the flexibility to the employer. Sure, you can turn a shift down, but you better be really good at your role if you want to keep getting shifts offered.

[TightEnd]

The Peterborough by-election will be the first shot in a multi-year battle that may reshape British politics in ways not seen for a century -


 https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/05/30/this-city-could-upend-british-politics-forever

[kukushkin88]

^ Fair enough.

point 2 i think a valid counter-point is zero hours contracts etc depress the recorded stats but don't lead to job security etc and (i think) wage growth is lagging inflation so living standards are squeezed y-o-y.

There are very, very few people on zero hours contracts.

There are abuses of it for sure, but the 'dramatic' growth in them is pretty much all down to the fact that they went from almost none to very few.

Oh, and you with your facts facts facts, wtf. :-)

1,800,000 on contracts with no minimum number of hours according to the Guardian’s reporting of ONS figures for 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/23/number-of-zero-hours-contracts-in-uk-rose-by-100000-in-2017-ons

About half that number, 883,000 according to statista
https://www.statista.com/statistics/414896/employees-with-zero-hours-contracts-number/

Really unsure as to why people treat zero hours contracts as a negative, the majority of tradesman have worked like this for centuries, obvs

One of the reasons why they’re viewed negatively is because when there’s no work because of our massively underperforming economy, it allows our government to paint a less than realistic and rosy picture when it come to employment figures. Loads of them will be in relative poverty and plenty in absolute.

Another person that goes way over the top with his language to make his argument more believable.
Since when was our economy massively under performing? Compared to what? The rest of Europe? because I assure you(and I think you know), we are not. The vast majority of the EU would love to have the bouyancy of our economy. It might not be where we want it to be, but we don't operate in a vacuum.

http://www.primeeconomics.org/articles/uk-economy-2010-2018-the-devastating-impact-of-the-age-of-austerity

[TightEnd]

interesting book is

The People Vs Tech
How the internet is killing democracy (and how we save it)
Jamie Bartlett

https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/111/1116305/the-people-vs-tech/9781785039065.html

contains this interesting section

[Pokerpops]

quite difficult to disagree with anything said in this clip isn't it?

https://twitter.com/Independent/status/1134480402561753088

But it’s Tony Blair.

[TightEnd]

quite difficult to disagree with anything said in this clip isn't it?

https://twitter.com/Independent/status/1134480402561753088

But it’s Tony Blair.

so?

a far higher standard of politician and statesman than any available at the moment, and i never voted for him!

you will no doubt come back with "Iraq".

but what do you disagree with in the clip?

[Sheriff Fatman]

quite difficult to disagree with anything said in this clip isn't it?

https://twitter.com/Independent/status/1134480402561753088

It's a very interesting argument, and not one I've seen made before - essentially looking at this in 30 year's time.  Interesting that he has India as one of the powerhouses, which seems questionable to me, but the overall argument is logical.

More importantly, it's a reminder of what a competent Labour party leader looks like.

Corbynistas will naturally respond with the usual 'but Iraq', etc.  Sadly, their hero is simply incapable of rationalising an argument in this way.

[Pokerpops]

quite difficult to disagree with anything said in this clip isn't it?

https://twitter.com/Independent/status/1134480402561753088

But it’s Tony Blair.

so?

a far higher standard of politician and statesman than any available at the moment, and i never voted for him!

you will no doubt come back with "Iraq".

but what do you disagree with in the clip?

His political career was as self-serving as any of the current crop. Cameron was Blair-lite and the big difference between them is that he wouldn’t have lost the referendum.

His basic premise seems to be that only countries with a large population will have power in the future. He then uses that to justify the need for the EU, which is fine.
Except I’m not convinced that large populations automatically equal power in a technology driven world.

Even if we accept his premise, why do we need to be part of a political European Union? Why this example of countries working together to gain strength in numbers? Why not, for example, the Commonwealth? EFTA? We’ve already got NATO.

I’m open to persuasion on this issue.

[TightEnd]

in economic union terms the EU comes with 4,5,7 and 9 in terms of global  economy sizes in Germany, UK, france and Italy

being in the commonwealth or an EFTA without similar sized economies isn't the same, doesn't necessarily get us a seat at the table?

the political union side: the EU's formation and subsequent role in maintaining peace in the region is widely not mentioned/forgotten

re India its already 6th largest and $0.01 trillion behind us and fast growing.figure from  https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/

think its reasonable to say US/China/India on a 30 year view

[MANTIS01]

^ Fair enough.

point 2 i think a valid counter-point is zero hours contracts etc depress the recorded stats but don't lead to job security etc and (i think) wage growth is lagging inflation so living standards are squeezed y-o-y.

There are very, very few people on zero hours contracts.

There are abuses of it for sure, but the 'dramatic' growth in them is pretty much all down to the fact that they went from almost none to very few.

Oh, and you with your facts facts facts, wtf. :-)

1,800,000 on contracts with no minimum number of hours according to the Guardian’s reporting of ONS figures for 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/23/number-of-zero-hours-contracts-in-uk-rose-by-100000-in-2017-ons

About half that number, 883,000 according to statista
https://www.statista.com/statistics/414896/employees-with-zero-hours-contracts-number/

Really unsure as to why people treat zero hours contracts as a negative, the majority of tradesman have worked like this for centuries, obvs

Tradesmen? Do you mean plumbers and electricians and painters and the like? They have control of their marketing and their pricing. Joe Zero Hours at Sports Direct warehouse doesn’t.
Zero Hours Contracts give all the flexibility to the employer. Sure, you can turn a shift down, but you better be really good at your role if you want to keep getting shifts offered.

Yep better be good at ur job if you want to continue in ur job

Being bad at ur job and wanting great flexibility prob not the recipe for career longevity

[nirvana]

^ Fair enough.

point 2 i think a valid counter-point is zero hours contracts etc depress the recorded stats but don't lead to job security etc and (i think) wage growth is lagging inflation so living standards are squeezed y-o-y.

There are very, very few people on zero hours contracts.

There are abuses of it for sure, but the 'dramatic' growth in them is pretty much all down to the fact that they went from almost none to very few.

Oh, and you with your facts facts facts, wtf. :-)

1,800,000 on contracts with no minimum number of hours according to the Guardian’s reporting of ONS figures for 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/23/number-of-zero-hours-contracts-in-uk-rose-by-100000-in-2017-ons

About half that number, 883,000 according to statista
https://www.statista.com/statistics/414896/employees-with-zero-hours-contracts-number/

Really unsure as to why people treat zero hours contracts as a negative, the majority of tradesman have worked like this for centuries, obvs

Tradesmen? Do you mean plumbers and electricians and painters and the like? They have control of their marketing and their pricing. Joe Zero Hours at Sports Direct warehouse doesn’t.
Zero Hours Contracts give all the flexibility to the employer. Sure, you can turn a shift down, but you better be really good at your role if you want to keep getting shifts offered.

Lots of people want these contracts - if they didn't, they wouldn't exist. Nothing more or less really

[nirvana]

^ Fair enough.

point 2 i think a valid counter-point is zero hours contracts etc depress the recorded stats but don't lead to job security etc and (i think) wage growth is lagging inflation so living standards are squeezed y-o-y.

There are very, very few people on zero hours contracts.

There are abuses of it for sure, but the 'dramatic' growth in them is pretty much all down to the fact that they went from almost none to very few.

Oh, and you with your facts facts facts, wtf. :-)

1,800,000 on contracts with no minimum number of hours according to the Guardian’s reporting of ONS figures for 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/23/number-of-zero-hours-contracts-in-uk-rose-by-100000-in-2017-ons

About half that number, 883,000 according to statista
https://www.statista.com/statistics/414896/employees-with-zero-hours-contracts-number/

Really unsure as to why people treat zero hours contracts as a negative, the majority of tradesman have worked like this for centuries, obvs

One of the reasons why they’re viewed negatively is because when there’s no work because of our massively underperforming economy, it allows our government to paint a less than realistic and rosy picture when it come to employment figures. Loads of them will be in relative poverty and plenty in absolute.

Another person that goes way over the top with his language to make his argument more believable.
Since when was our economy massively under performing? Compared to what? The rest of Europe? because I assure you(and I think you know), we are not. The vast majority of the EU would love to have the bouyancy of our economy. It might not be where we want it to be, but we don't operate in a vacuum.

its true though

"In the first six months of 2018, the UK was one of the slowest growing economies in the G7. This is a group of the largest advanced economies in the world and includes Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and the US, alongside the UK.

This is a significant turnaround since the period from 2013 to 2016, where the UK was one of the fastest growing economies."

https://fullfact.org/economy/uk-economic-growth-within-g7/

multiple sources to get that sort of info from

forecasts for 2019 are about 1.3% GDP growth

If one reviews YTD now though it's not quite the same picture - it's not like Italy, France, Germany are surging ahead and we're becalmed. It's not a very good argument tbf

[Pokerpops]

in economic union terms the EU comes with 4,5,7 and 9 in terms of global  economy sizes in Germany, UK, france and Italy

being in the commonwealth or an EFTA without similar sized economies isn't the same, doesn't necessarily get us a seat at the table?

the political union side: the EU's formation and subsequent role in maintaining peace in the region is widely not mentioned/forgotten

re India its already 6th largest and $0.01 trillion behind us and fast growing.figure from  https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/

think its reasonable to say US/China/India on a 30 year view

Which conflicts do you think the EU has prevented?

We are rehashing the arguments that were taking place in early 2016. I don’t mean the Blonde We, I mean the whole country.
Perhaps we’re ready to go 50/50 and give Chris Tarrant our final answer?