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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 56

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 1327897 times)
aaron1867
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« Reply #21615 on: October 20, 2019, 10:47:32 AM »

However, I do find it silly and hypocritical of anyone who choose to vote one way or the other because of "democracy". I very much doubt that democracy would come into it if one side of the argument offered them huge incentives to do so, they wouldn't be thinking about democracy then. People should be voting for what is important to them and their family, not this silly democracy argument, because what is more democratic than asking the public again?

As for the current situation, it's shameful. I think this country would be happy for a delay if there was some plan to get to a final decision, or the EU responding with an extesnion if a vote is to happen.

There is a worrying side to all off this, I've said this over and over but I fear that public disorder is going to get worse if nothing is sorted. Remainers embarrassing themselves yesterday with their response to MP's outside of parliament.

I worry about response if Brexit is stopped or no deal is forced upon this country. Getting it done is not the end of it.
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nirvana
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« Reply #21616 on: October 20, 2019, 11:28:22 AM »

It was good to watch Oliver Letwin represent his own motivations for yesterday's amendment on Marr today.

It was easy to think of it as more game playing (at least I thought that) but he had a good solid rationale that seemed to come from a position of integrity, conviction and concern for the national interest
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ripple11
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« Reply #21617 on: October 20, 2019, 01:00:36 PM »

one comment said

"Boris Johnson threw the DUP under the bus. The DUP found the keys to the bus and drove off."

Jonathan Powell: DUP justifiably aggrieved over Brexit deal

https://irishtimes.com/opinion/jonathan-powell-dup-justifiably-aggrieved-over-brexit-deal-1.4055358

the post yesterday where the DUP say they might supoort a second referendum didn't get any interest, but it might be hugely significant. 10 vote swing in parliament might make any amendment on that very close

Tighty....I cant seem to find any "analysis" on the referendum question. Almost everyone seems to say it should be  " remain v an agreed deal".  How does that get through the electoral commission ? Apart from alot of people saying they will boycott the vote....how is it anywhere near a fair question compared to remain v leave ?
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TightEnd
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« Reply #21618 on: October 20, 2019, 01:16:40 PM »

I don't think I have seen any. It's the big downside of the referendum question, how can the question be fairly set, particularly without splitting the leave vote.

Perhaps the best solution might be leave with this deal versus leave with No Deal, and no remain option.
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RickBFA
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« Reply #21619 on: October 20, 2019, 02:08:55 PM »

I don't think I have seen any. It's the big downside of the referendum question, how can the question be fairly set, particularly without splitting the leave vote.

Perhaps the best solution might be leave with this deal versus leave with No Deal, and no remain option.

One option was a question of leave or stay with a secondary question for leave voters of no deal or BJ deal.

That seemed to cover most bases (we don’t need another though).
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aaron1867
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« Reply #21620 on: October 20, 2019, 02:20:57 PM »

I don't think I have seen any. It's the big downside of the referendum question, how can the question be fairly set, particularly without splitting the leave vote.

Perhaps the best solution might be leave with this deal versus leave with No Deal, and no remain option.

One option was a question of leave or stay with a secondary question for leave voters of no deal or BJ deal.

That seemed to cover most bases (we don’t need another though).

This seems like the best option. I did see someone suggest that perhaps it could be held over many days with many options.
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« Reply #21621 on: October 20, 2019, 04:36:34 PM »

Remain
Leave -> Deal
Leave -> No Deal

If between them leave has >50% then the higher of the two options wins.

Although I don't see how no deal can be responsibly be put on the ballot.
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AndrewT
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« Reply #21622 on: October 20, 2019, 06:14:00 PM »

I do like the idea of a Referendum World Cup - could be like Eurovision where the semi finals are on Tues/Thur with the final on Saturday.
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RickBFA
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« Reply #21623 on: October 20, 2019, 06:57:30 PM »

Just watched some of news.

Comment made that Bercow may not even allow a vote tomorrow.

He has already pushed impartiality to its limits.

If this were the case and the Speaker denies the vote, he will have become overtly political.

Given it appears Johnson has the numbers, the attempts by any means to stop him are becoming more and more extreme. Total joke.
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aaron1867
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« Reply #21624 on: October 20, 2019, 07:08:40 PM »

Just watched some of news.

Comment made that Bercow may not even allow a vote tomorrow.

He has already pushed impartiality to its limits.

If this were the case and the Speaker denies the vote, he will have become overtly political.

Given it appears Johnson has the numbers, the attempts by any means to stop him are becoming more and more extreme. Total joke.

I don’t think is about being impartial, I’d say it was more due to parliamentary procedure. I wouldn’t be confident of the numbers either, going to be super close, but there was a switcher from the deal to going against today
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RickBFA
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« Reply #21625 on: October 20, 2019, 07:12:44 PM »

Just watched some of news.

Comment made that Bercow may not even allow a vote tomorrow.

He has already pushed impartiality to its limits.

If this were the case and the Speaker denies the vote, he will have become overtly political.

Given it appears Johnson has the numbers, the attempts by any means to stop him are becoming more and more extreme. Total joke.

I don’t think is about being impartial, I’d say it was more due to parliamentary procedure. I wouldn’t be confident of the numbers either, going to be super close, but there was a switcher from the deal to going against today

He may use his interpretation of Parliamentary procedure to suit his strong remain views.

Not really on is it?
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Pokerpops
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« Reply #21626 on: October 20, 2019, 07:15:15 PM »

Just watched some of news.

Comment made that Bercow may not even allow a vote tomorrow.

He has already pushed impartiality to its limits.

If this were the case and the Speaker denies the vote, he will have become overtly political.

Given it appears Johnson has the numbers, the attempts by any means to stop him are becoming more and more extreme. Total joke.

I don’t think is about being impartial, I’d say it was more due to parliamentary procedure. I wouldn’t be confident of the numbers either, going to be super close, but there was a switcher from the deal to going against today

Could you explain the bolded part for us Aaron? Maybe cite this parliamentary procedure you are referring to.
Explain it in simple terms for me though, because I am one of those less educated folks who voted Leave.


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aaron1867
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« Reply #21627 on: October 20, 2019, 07:23:26 PM »

Just watched some of news.

Comment made that Bercow may not even allow a vote tomorrow.

He has already pushed impartiality to its limits.

If this were the case and the Speaker denies the vote, he will have become overtly political.

Given it appears Johnson has the numbers, the attempts by any means to stop him are becoming more and more extreme. Total joke.

I don’t think is about being impartial, I’d say it was more due to parliamentary procedure. I wouldn’t be confident of the numbers either, going to be super close, but there was a switcher from the deal to going against today

He may use his interpretation of Parliamentary procedure to suit his strong remain views.

Not really on is it?

I don’t know what to think of it really. You can understand it, but also ask how on earth can we go foward?
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aaron1867
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« Reply #21628 on: October 20, 2019, 07:23:58 PM »

Sunday Times reporting extension agreed until February.
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Archer
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« Reply #21629 on: October 20, 2019, 09:14:30 PM »

Just watched some of news.

Comment made that Bercow may not even allow a vote tomorrow.

He has already pushed impartiality to its limits.

If this were the case and the Speaker denies the vote, he will have become overtly political.

Given it appears Johnson has the numbers, the attempts by any means to stop him are becoming more and more extreme. Total joke.

I don’t think is about being impartial, I’d say it was more due to parliamentary procedure. I wouldn’t be confident of the numbers either, going to be super close, but there was a switcher from the deal to going against today

Could you explain the bolded part for us Aaron? Maybe cite this parliamentary procedure you are referring to.
Explain it in simple terms for me though, because I am one of those less educated folks who voted Leave.


After  Letwin went through the government chose not to push the MV. I'm reading that was a mistake and they should have done.
Bercow likely to  rule out of order tomorrow as MV (i) same issue twice (ii) contradicts Letwin amendment which says Brexit related legislation must be agreed first i.e the actual withdrawal agreement and the procedures relating to that.

Doesn't suit Boris but of course the media line will be that he is being denied again and Bercow is a **** blah blah.  All good for Conservative votes when we finally get to GE.



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