"The Online games are not fair anymore"

[tikay]

Saying that recs should put in more work if they want to keep up is absolute bullshit to be honest. You work at your job and if your job isn't poker why the f**k would you want to work at it? I put in enough f**king work every day earning the money which I then use to fund hobbies, one of which used to be poker.

To be told be professional poker players that I should work a bit harder at my hobby just pisses me right off!! Even if I put in a bit of work it still won't be as much as the pros so all I'm doing is slowing the rate at which they're getting better than me. It's far easier to just select a new hobby that doesn't require any hard work.

Pros and better recs used to take money off me slowly. I'd happily lose a few thousand a year because I enjoyed the game and there was always a punchers chance that I may bink a decent score one day. I've completely given up with online poker as I don't feel I have a chance any more. Whether it be HUDs or whatever doesn't matter, the fun goes out of poker if you think you haven't even got a hope of that lucky bink. I won't be putting in 8 hours a day to get better, I won't be buying HUDs and learning how to use them to try to narrow the gap. I'm just not going to spend any more money at online poker.

Hobbies are supposed to be fun and the way that poker has gone recently both live and online has ripped most of the fun out of poker for me. Even in live comps I now feel like my puncher's chance has been massively reduced because of the multi-entry/re-entry thing that's being debated elsewhere on the forum.

The thing is I'm not stupid, I'm actually quite intelligent. I understand the math behind re-entry and multi-entry, I understand that a HUD won't make much difference against me because you won't play enough hands against me to ever gain any more of an edge than you already have. I understand that my recent losing run might have nothing to do with any of the above, it might just be variance. None of this matters though. I've got to the point where the combination of variance, HUDs, better players, multi entry blah blah blah has just gotten too much.

I know that I can combat most of these problems by putting in more effort or more money but I just don't want to. It seemed far easier to just drastically reduce my £10k a year contribution to the pros weekly food bills and go on a few more holidays instead.

Good luck for the future.......

You were a good customer for years, Matt, but they've lost you now.

[EvilPie]

You were a good customer for years, Matt, but they've lost you now.

This is what so many pros don't realise. People like me are their customers and they really need to keep their customers happy. There was a great post by Stu (Honeybadger) a few years ago talking about keeping the recs happy, let them see a few flops, don't call them fish, don't moan at them when they make a bad call and get there, take their money slowly etc. Smart guy that one! Shame he can't hold down a half decent bank account.......

[Rexas]

Feel like posting one of the various rants I've had about this topic over the last week or so on here, but I'll keep this one short:

I would love it if HUDs were banned across every site, but they won't be. And while there is basically no chance of them being banned, I kinda feel like we have to address this problem. HUDs are not the issue here, it is "recs" perception of them that is the problem. I mean, as I posted on another thread recently, poker is already outrageously unfair against the regs by its very nature, because my mum (who just about knows the rules) could sit down heads up with Phil Ivey and win. It is completely fair that the pros win because they work for it, and random punters can sit down and win anyway just by getting lucky. I completely cannot see why people seem to think a rec should have the same chance of winning as a pro, despite putting in no work to get there.

And now we're sat here, with this absurd impression of good players as these big, bad, evil people with software that lets them cheat their way to winning. It's insulting, it's completely wrong, and it takes the piss out of all the work myself and various others have done to get ok at this game.

[LonOhRay]

But I want to be better than someone at poker, not at operating and interpreting software programmes.

If we follow this to it's conclusion, shouldn't I be allowed to use my motorbike to win the Tour de France?

The closest example would probably be Chess grandmasters - I don't know if your game can deteriorate or if the curve is anywhere near as fast as poker but I imagine if a top player stopped playing or cut his hours tenfold he wouldn't be able to compete at the top level either. Players now can evaluate their plays using computer programmes and tens of thousands of games have been recorded they can study from, if they refuse to use these resources they will probably lag behind too.

If that's the closest example then you've got problems because quite frankly it's shit.

The deteriorating chess grandmaster isn't having to go to work for 8 hours a day and then funnel a % of his hard earned wage to the other grandmasters is he?
 

Lol, I've been up a long time and just finished playing 12 hours of live poker without a Hud or seating script, just my brain, my conversation/terrible jokes and money (I rebought no less than 20 times in a cash game over the course of the night/morning) I was prepared to lose. It was very enjoyable for all at the table (pros, recs, fish, dealers, supervisors, valets whatever term want to use for any of the people present) with laughs all night long even from those who lost significant money - a fun game and enjoyable atmosphere to play in and I'm sure thats why most of us choose to play, these guys won't be sitting at home playing on their computers, they want to come out have a beer, flirt with the staff and have some banter with the characters in the game. Online really doesn't compare to a good live game of cards and I don't think it ever has or could. Didn't read any of it back just typed and pressed enter, why it may not make any sense and this one probably won't either.

He doesn't have to do that, no. But if he wants to be better than his opponents he will have to practice some more, just that that hobby needs a chess board and pieces to play, doesn't cost him anything but time.

I really haven't put a lot of hours into online poker in a few years now, when I do it's full schedule of Sunday MTTs otherwise its 5 and 6card PLO, without a seating script, without a HUD or any form of 3rd party software. Actually a big % of my hours has been HUD-less cash on sky.

I'm on the Recs side of this argument and firmly believe all the softwares should be banned, but I don't think it's "unfair". I'm sure in any business or industry the people who are trying to make the most money are using every tool or piece of software they can get their hands on to maximise profits. Economies of scale for Tesco are going to be more prevelant than a local family run Greengrocers - does that make it unfair on the small shop that they haven't got the same resources than Tescos do?

Perfect decision to quit playing if you no longer think you are getting value for money or enough enjoyment, more people should be doing the same but a lot can't/won't give it up finding excuses as to why they seem to lose over time. It does make me sad seeing the same guys do their money over and over and I'm always happy for them when they walk away a winner even with my money, even worse when some who had given up the game for a period of time but come back to it. Some people just have too much disposable income and too much love for the game I guess. It's a catch 22 playing poker for a part of income, if I could play vs the house or robots and win i'd far rather do that, I'm not sure there's too many professional players that like the idea they are making others worse off by playing the game.

Online has been in steady decline for a long time and I really don't think it can be stopped now, it's too far gone, make the games as rec friendly as possible over night and it still can't be saved, the decline may slow but won't ever come close to what it was.

I'll stop posting now and get to bed, read this back and be embarassed when I wake up



Edit: Forgot to say a big thank you for typing out that post I read it with a big smile, great post haha

[SuuPRlim]

Saying that recs should put in more work if they want to keep up is absolute bullshit to be honest. You work at your job and if your job isn't poker why the f**k would you want to work at it? I put in enough f**king work every day earning the money which I then use to fund hobbies, one of which used to be poker.

To be told be professional poker players that I should work a bit harder at my hobby just pisses me right off!! Even if I put in a bit of work it still won't be as much as the pros so all I'm doing is slowing the rate at which they're getting better than me. It's far easier to just select a new hobby that doesn't require any hard work.

Pros and better recs used to take money off me slowly. I'd happily lose a few thousand a year because I enjoyed the game and there was always a punchers chance that I may bink a decent score one day. I've completely given up with online poker as I don't feel I have a chance any more. Whether it be HUDs or whatever doesn't matter, the fun goes out of poker if you think you haven't even got a hope of that lucky bink. I won't be putting in 8 hours a day to get better, I won't be buying HUDs and learning how to use them to try to narrow the gap. I'm just not going to spend any more money at online poker.

Hobbies are supposed to be fun and the way that poker has gone recently both live and online has ripped most of the fun out of poker for me. Even in live comps I now feel like my puncher's chance has been massively reduced because of the multi-entry/re-entry thing that's being debated elsewhere on the forum.

The thing is I'm not stupid, I'm actually quite intelligent. I understand the math behind re-entry and multi-entry, I understand that a HUD won't make much difference against me because you won't play enough hands against me to ever gain any more of an edge than you already have. I understand that my recent losing run might have nothing to do with any of the above, it might just be variance. None of this matters though. I've got to the point where the combination of variance, HUDs, better players, multi entry blah blah blah has just gotten too much.

I know that I can combat most of these problems by putting in more effort or more money but I just don't want to. It seemed far easier to just drastically reduce my £10k a year contribution to the pros weekly food bills and go on a few more holidays instead.

Good luck for the future.......

  fantastic rant.

Here's the problem, PRO POKER PLAYERS AND THEIR EGO'S.

Just like any industry, poker has its inside secrets, the more of them you know the more successful you could potentially be.

If you saw a few car salesman having a drink one night you'd probably hear them talking about some lil trick they have which got them an extra monkey off Mrs COllins when she bought her new VW Golf, perfected over time this lil trick of the trade has proved pretty successful at getting a slightly better price and a lil more commission. They aren't ripping her off, its the job, get the best price you can get for the car. Mrs Collins is nonethewiser and enjoying her new golf. If she ever heard this conversation she'd probably feel like a bit of a mug, she never really stood a chance of getting the lowest possible price against this guy and all his experience and lil tricks. Under no circumstances does this make her a mug.

SO what you will NOT see happening is the car dealers finding a local forum where most of their customers will see and talking about the techniques they use to get a better price for their cars, nor will they be making training videos that anyone in the world get get hold off virtually for free, neither will they be found openly bragging in front of their customers about it. (There may well be a car salesman forum before anyone brings one up, but i imagine not one that is often frequented by thier customers)

The ugly reality of poker is that it has a few ugly parts to it, as does everything. In fact poker's part's aren;t even really that ugly...they just don't look so good, none of them are immoral, against the spirit of the game par se or even remotely out of line, but the perception they create by being public knowledge is highly toxic. SO WHY THE FUCK DID EVERYONE MAKE THEM PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE.

I'll tell you why, stupid kids with big ego's thinking that sharing all the inside secrets of the game to make themselves sound really clever would be a good idea, and it's nowadays its gotten ridiculously out of hand. Now we have training sites that basically give stuff away (I must have watched 200+ training videos lifetime and never paid a penny in subscription to any of them) articles, forums, and even more incredibly this new craze of "twitching" where for absolutely free you let people actually watch you play. Galfond/Taylor Caby+CR guys/Mason/Jason Summerville/Krantz to one side (who actually made some real money out of opening the book for everyone) well done to you all you utter, utter morons.

99% of recreational player shouldn't even know HUDs exist.

Whenever I speak to recreational players now (who I like ) about online poker I say the same thing STAY WELL CLEAR as you literally stand no chance whatsoever and it's nothing to do with HUD's its to do with the environment of online poker now, no=one cares about maintaining an environment that is pleasurable for losing players (a duty that anyone calling themself a "pro" should take very seriously, it's simply about taking the money as fast as possible, with high rake and swarms of other regulars scrapping over any lose action it's the only way to win now.

I think this is what Antonius is saying when he say its "shame" because it really is, it's absolutely horrible, but we only have ourselves to blame.

[shipitgood]

Really nice post evilpie.

I would say the terms "rec" and "pro" are often misused. For example, someone earning 20K a year playing poker, do you really think you can call that professional?

These two terms are way too simplistic imo, there is probably a lot of categories.

The folk saying "recs" should work on their game don't seem to get poker. As Evilpie eloquently put it - it is a bit of fun for him, and certainly that's what it should be, it is why we all stated playing in the first place. Technology is helping the industry eat itself to an extent.

It also seems some of the posts in this thread look at the issue in a very singular way.

For a healthy economy you need to have the right balance between new money coming into the game, healthy player pools and reasonable rake structures. Rake structures have pretty much not changed. I would say liquidity in cash games is reducing, with less money coming into the poker economy. As EvilPie's post shows certainly some have stopped playing online because it has ceased to be fun, with more folk using programmes and software to help them play, it just becomes robotic.

  

[LonOhRay]

And while there is basically no chance of them being banned, I kinda feel like we have to address this problem. HUDs are not the issue here, it is "recs" perception of them that is the problem.

Poker is a battle of wits against other humans, what % of the population can lose gracefully at anything competitive let alone when there's money at stake - especially when they believe to be winners in the first place. What % of Fifa matches or Call of Duty games end with "well played mate I was outclassed there" as opposed to excuses and moans, that's without money on the line just ego and pride.

Players can take comfort in having excuses as to why they lose and any chance they have, I know I really hate losing at anything. If it isn't HUDs it's rigged poker sites or "guys with 5 red stars always get rewarded like team pros and people who pay more rake" Kings run into Aces way more often online so they take more rake.

These are the thoughts from thousands of recs, spoken in cardrooms all over the world, forums and facebook, they won't be swayed. Not everyone is as intelligent as an average Blonde poster.




Edit: Dave's post is great as usual.

Was about to say you wouldn't find people advertising the best panning spot for gold back in the gold rush days.

If that was to happen now you would for sure find the same morons posting their finds and locations on social media to get some likes or attention or quick recognition from online peers.

[RED-DOG]

I now play on a site that doesn't allow tracking software. Someone on here said that even sites that don't allow it can have workaround programmes written. I don't know if that's true or not, but even if it is the number of people using it would be insignificant.

None of that may be accurate but it's how I see it and that's what matters.

[GreekStein]

I now play on a site that doesn't allow tracking software. Someone on here said that even sites that don't allow it can have workaround programmes written. I don't know if that's true or not, but even if it is the number of people using it would be insignificant.

None of that may be accurate but it's how I see it and that's what matters.

I'd say that's pretty accurate.

[bobAlike]

Maybe the answer is to integrate the player aids with the game software?

[GreekStein]

Good posts Matt and Red. Totally agree with both.

The problem with most poker pros is they are selfish and greedy and want the extra 3bb/100 that a HUD (or insert name of other software here) gives them. They don't understand that losing x amount of recs who drop $1k, $10k, $100k etc etc a year and effectively pay their wages is far worse. Of course not having HUDS and still having these people playing online is more than that HUD would ever earn and keeps the poker eco system healthier but that greed just doesn't seem to want to let it be.

Recs are our customers. If I'm playing with a 'fish' (I don't like the word but w/e) and he says he wants everyone to put the straddle on or he wants to box his chips for 2hours for a long dinner break when the rule is 1 hour, or he wants to rabbit hunt the river that gets the thumbs up from me every time. I would never expect the same luxury afforded to me and wouldn't be giving it to other pros. We have to keep these people happy but my frustrations are that most pros seem too selfish or too short sighted (or a combination of both) to realise that.

Just the fact that everyone's perception of HUDS is so negative is argument enough for me to want them scrapped especially since that perception will not change. Pros will make money anyway. Let's just keep the recs happy because their happiness is more important than any professional's happiness when it comes to poker.

[Boba Fett]

So nobody should try to get better at poker so they dont make everyone else feel outclassed?

[RED-DOG]

So nobody should try to get better at poker so they dont make everyone else feel outclassed?

If you are going to reduce the debate to that level you will need to precisely define 'poker' and 'getting better'.

[GreekStein]

So nobody should try to get better at poker so they dont make everyone else feel outclassed?

I didn't say that at all.

I can only encourage people studying to get better.

When I was at school I was fucking good at languages. Part of it was that I was naturally better at them than I was relative to other subjects but part of it was that I was willing to study a bit harder and take a bit more care and time with my work at home.

Then we had GCSE written exams in which we were allowed to take a dictionary. It was within the rules but I thought it was bullshit and a bit unfair. I still had an edge on people worse than me but this closened the gap.

This is kind of similar in my mind.

Software crosses the boundary of what I believe is acceptable in game time. Billy rec is already worse at poker than Barry Pro. Why should Barry pro be able to see in the middle of a pot when Billy rec raises him that Billy has a 64% check-raise on the turn in 3bet pots and therefore Barry is happy to shove 3rd nuts. It's just not right and can be more advantageous than having someone else helping you. Just feels to me like a clever way around '1 person to a hand'.

I understand why half the pros who actually lack real aptitude for the game don't want to lose their HUDS but it's just good all around if they were banned. Good for recs, good for sites and good for the game.

[SuuPRlim]

Gd post Cos.

These conversation's about huds are so frustrating,  it's blown totally out of proportion, 80% of the ppl using HUDs even don't know how to use them properly, in games like Antonius is talking about where the player pool is very small (nosebleeds) they are in the hands of very clever pros who really really know how to use them and in an environment where there are very useful.  It's so honestly true that mist recreation players are hardly affected by thier existence.

This is not to be said they shouldn't be banned,  10000% they should but if we were going to make a list of what's wrong with online poker then HUDs would honestly struggle to make the top ten.