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Author Topic: "The Online games are not fair anymore"  (Read 48850 times)
teddybloat
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« Reply #60 on: September 03, 2015, 04:43:43 PM »

tufffish used a HUD.

tuff-fish.

i have spoken with the owner of a training site who sells an extremely high spec and format specific HUD and most of his customers are losing players.

HUDs, training sites etc CLOSE the gap. not widen it. regs are doing more and more study, working in ares of the game previously thought to be barren in terms of edge all to maintain winrate.

recs, regs, good and bad all enjoy using HUDs.

Tracking software is incredibly cheap for the service it provides, and available to all hobbist players
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 04:46:50 PM by teddybloat » Logged
titaniumbean
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« Reply #61 on: September 03, 2015, 04:44:44 PM »

Gd post Cos.

These conversation's about huds are so frustrating,  it's blown totally out of proportion, 80% of the ppl using HUDs even don't know how to use them properly, in games like Antonius is talking about where the player pool is very small (nosebleeds) they are in the hands of very clever pros who really really know how to use them and in an environment where there are very useful.  It's so honestly true that mist recreation players are hardly affected by thier existence.

This is not to be said they shouldn't be banned,  10000% they should but if we were going to make a list of what's wrong with online poker then HUDs would honestly struggle to make the top ten.


it's hardly surprising that when you post $400-$1000 as a blind that people bothered to put the work in. Antonius just doesn't want to have to work.

Last paragraph nails it. This thread seems to be forgetting that we have very little ability to change anything, and those that do give very few shits.
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« Reply #62 on: September 03, 2015, 04:50:11 PM »

Gd post Cos.

These conversation's about huds are so frustrating,  it's blown totally out of proportion, 80% of the ppl using HUDs even don't know how to use them properly, in games like Antonius is talking about where the player pool is very small (nosebleeds) they are in the hands of very clever pros who really really know how to use them and in an environment where there are very useful.  It's so honestly true that mist recreation players are hardly affected by thier existence.

This is not to be said they shouldn't be banned,  10000% they should but if we were going to make a list of what's wrong with online poker then HUDs would honestly struggle to make the top ten.


it's hardly surprising that when you post $400-$1000 as a blind that people bothered to put the work in. Antonius just doesn't want to have to work.

Last paragraph nails it. This thread seems to be forgetting that we have very little ability to change anything, and those that do give very few shits.


I have the ability to change where or if I play. Seems very empowering to me.
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« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2015, 04:53:12 PM »

Good for recs, good for sites and good for the game.

Do you think it would be good in the long run or just a short term fix?

Think it would give a boost to rec players for a short time until they discover that HUD's aren't the reason they are losing and infact it's just that they are bad. They stop depositing anyway. They may even stop playing live as they don't have any excuses to why they lose online as they are on exactly the same footing as everyone else, leading them to recognise is an incredibly skilled game whether online or live.

The sites lose an entire layer of players, who play loads of tables, generate tons of rake and make up a massive chunk of online players now. These players can't play as many tables, and even if it may improve their winrate it will for sure decrease their hourly, which is infinitly more important to people who play for a living. These players now can't make a substantial living from playing poker so just quit. This may lead to many of the medium sized networks/sites just collapsing completely.

Do you think an industry wide blanket ban on rakeback/bonuses etc and a significant decrease in rake would be any better for online poker as a whole?
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titaniumbean
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« Reply #64 on: September 03, 2015, 05:12:20 PM »

Gd post Cos.

These conversation's about huds are so frustrating,  it's blown totally out of proportion, 80% of the ppl using HUDs even don't know how to use them properly, in games like Antonius is talking about where the player pool is very small (nosebleeds) they are in the hands of very clever pros who really really know how to use them and in an environment where there are very useful.  It's so honestly true that mist recreation players are hardly affected by thier existence.

This is not to be said they shouldn't be banned,  10000% they should but if we were going to make a list of what's wrong with online poker then HUDs would honestly struggle to make the top ten.


it's hardly surprising that when you post $400-$1000 as a blind that people bothered to put the work in. Antonius just doesn't want to have to work.

Last paragraph nails it. This thread seems to be forgetting that we have very little ability to change anything, and those that do give very few shits.


I have the ability to change where or if I play. Seems very empowering to me.


yes you could play on a site where you are the only player. except that doesn't work. there is no centralised structure for the players to have a voice/empower themselves (lets not pretend someone like D Neg is fighting the average players fight). So the players have little chance to change something. The changes have to come from the site, this is why it's so good to see Rob fighting the players fight and trying to affect changes in the industry, but as you can see for all the good will and effort in the world dealing with party/or whoever getting changes made is exceptionally hard especially when they dont directly lead to increased revenues.
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« Reply #65 on: September 03, 2015, 06:20:33 PM »


You were a good customer for years, Matt, but they've lost you now.


This is what so many pros don't realise. People like me are their customers and they really need to keep their customers happy. There was a great post by Stu (Honeybadger) a few years ago talking about keeping the recs happy, let them see a few flops, don't call them fish, don't moan at them when they make a bad call and get there, take their money slowly etc. Smart guy that one! Shame he can't hold down a half decent bank account.......



So Matt (or anyone else for that matter), what could online pro's do to make you want to play online again ?

Obv any reg who has a chat war with a rec is a complete moron.
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« Reply #66 on: September 03, 2015, 06:21:12 PM »

fwiw i think Antonius isn't talking about HUD's. Hes more likely talking about PLO "dream machines" built by the likes of hollywood Haxton and a few other at the nosebleeds have access to which can help you make decisions IN GAME.

Huds should defo be banned now since the lines have become so blurred. I would just like a something to track how many hands I've played and how much I've lost.

Disclaimer: Much of this post is based on rumour and hearsay from third parties and may not be 100% factually correct.
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rfgqqabc
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« Reply #67 on: September 03, 2015, 06:26:43 PM »


You were a good customer for years, Matt, but they've lost you now.


This is what so many pros don't realise. People like me are their customers and they really need to keep their customers happy. There was a great post by Stu (Honeybadger) a few years ago talking about keeping the recs happy, let them see a few flops, don't call them fish, don't moan at them when they make a bad call and get there, take their money slowly etc. Smart guy that one! Shame he can't hold down a half decent bank account.......



So Matt (or anyone else for that matter), what could online pro's do to make you want to play online again ?

Obv any reg who has a chat war with a rec is a complete moron.

Lose to him.

I feel like I said close to the same thing in Matt in places. I don't expect rec players to work hard, but unfortunately don't expect them to moan when they lose, just like I don't moan when a better hearthstone player beats me. I accept they are better and although they use some software I don't because I can't be bothered, I don't feel like it gives me the right to moan. Poker involves too much ego to last long term.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 06:29:55 PM by rfgqqabc » Logged

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mondatoo
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« Reply #68 on: September 03, 2015, 06:31:07 PM »

I think any losing player wants to have a reason to blame other than themselves, ofc some people are self aware enough to know were they are at but the vast majority of people playing poker will find something or someone else to blame. So we could ban huds because that's the reason poker is not attracting as many new players or keeping the losing ones happy, but then what happens when the losing player still loses ? "Oh it's because he can play more tables than I can", ok lets ban people from being able to play more than 4 tables, and so on and so on it goes.

A recreational player who loses over a period of time that they think is a long time to not get much fun out of a hobby because they aren't winning is very likely to quit no matter whether there are huds, cheating scandals or anything else for that matter.
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arbboy
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« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2015, 06:34:39 PM »

How many proper 'recs' even know what a hud is seriously?  If you asked 200 proper recs who play small stakes stuff online now and again on a Friday night who are not on poker forums etc but just play for the craic now and again how many would know?

Poker to so many proper recs was just a short term fad for them like numerous other leisure activities which become fashionable like poker did 10 years ago on tv etc.  People get bored of doing stuff in their spare time and move on to the next fad especially when they are losing/spending money and getting nothing in return for it other than an 'experience'.  HUD's have nothing to do with this.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 06:44:00 PM by arbboy » Logged
rfgqqabc
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« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2015, 06:38:59 PM »

Tournaments are the answer and that is where poker is going. Dull conversation really, not sure anyone will change their mind or anything new has been added to the topic since last time. I'm sure it'll still piss me off in 6 months when Negreanu admits he can't win online
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EvilPie
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« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2015, 08:17:46 PM »


You were a good customer for years, Matt, but they've lost you now.


This is what so many pros don't realise. People like me are their customers and they really need to keep their customers happy. There was a great post by Stu (Honeybadger) a few years ago talking about keeping the recs happy, let them see a few flops, don't call them fish, don't moan at them when they make a bad call and get there, take their money slowly etc. Smart guy that one! Shame he can't hold down a half decent bank account.......



So Matt (or anyone else for that matter), what could online pro's do to make you want to play online again ?

Obv any reg who has a chat war with a rec is a complete moron.

Lil Dave hits the nail on the head Ray and I'm afraid it's too late for me as unfortunately I already know too much.

I don't need to win I just need to feel I have a chance of winning but the information I have tells me that that's not possible.

I've been told about all these devices and tools that have perfected the game to the point where I mathematically can't win. Apparently even when I walk away with cold hard cash I've actually lost long in EV terms because the other guy is playing perfectly. This doesn't sound like a fun way of killing a few hours every evening.

Maybe it's Blonde that's ruined the game for me because that's where I get all of my poker information and that's where I've found out how bad I really am. PHA probably hasn't helped particularly as I no longer feel qualified to comment on there for fear of someone telling me that I'm wrong because ICM says I am. It's like opinions don't matter any more. Everything is down to facts and it doesn't matter what I think, Mr Smart Arse has ran it through such and such poker tool so what I think is wrong and that's that. I can have my opinion fixed if I purchase such and such poker tool and learn how to use it but again this doesn't sound like fun.

So unfortunately Ray there's nothing the pros can do to get me back as I'm too far gone. I'll have to stick to a few live tournaments and cash games every now and then to get my gambling fix now.
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« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2015, 08:20:09 PM »

Saying that recs should put in more work if they want to keep up is absolute bullshit to be honest. You work at your job and if your job isn't poker why the f**k would you want to work at it? I put in enough f**king work every day earning the money which I then use to fund hobbies, one of which used to be poker.

To be told be professional poker players that I should work a bit harder at my hobby just pisses me right off!! Even if I put in a bit of work it still won't be as much as the pros so all I'm doing is slowing the rate at which they're getting better than me. It's far easier to just select a new hobby that doesn't require any hard work.

Pros and better recs used to take money off me slowly. I'd happily lose a few thousand a year because I enjoyed the game and there was always a punchers chance that I may bink a decent score one day. I've completely given up with online poker as I don't feel I have a chance any more. Whether it be HUDs or whatever doesn't matter, the fun goes out of poker if you think you haven't even got a hope of that lucky bink. I won't be putting in 8 hours a day to get better, I won't be buying HUDs and learning how to use them to try to narrow the gap. I'm just not going to spend any more money at online poker.

Hobbies are supposed to be fun and the way that poker has gone recently both live and online has ripped most of the fun out of poker for me. Even in live comps I now feel like my puncher's chance has been massively reduced because of the multi-entry/re-entry thing that's being debated elsewhere on the forum.

The thing is I'm not stupid, I'm actually quite intelligent. I understand the math behind re-entry and multi-entry, I understand that a HUD won't make much difference against me because you won't play enough hands against me to ever gain any more of an edge than you already have. I understand that my recent losing run might have nothing to do with any of the above, it might just be variance. None of this matters though. I've got to the point where the combination of variance, HUDs, better players, multi entry blah blah blah has just gotten too much.

I know that I can combat most of these problems by putting in more effort or more money but I just don't want to. It seemed far easier to just drastically reduce my £10k a year contribution to the pros weekly food bills and go on a few more holidays instead.

Good luck for the future.......



I lolled Matt, but that's a fantastic post.

Best post i have read for a while.
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Young_gun
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« Reply #73 on: September 03, 2015, 09:09:30 PM »

Not enough Rec's in this thread.....

I agree with Evil Pie, i have been playing poker for a while and go through phases of playing every so often, then playing non stop for a week or month Wink

The biggest problem with Huds for me is your average player wont want to a) Pay for them b) play against them

Its clear to everyone Huds do give a edge to anyone regardless who you are, but being a recreational player why would you take the time to study or to even play enough to get the best use from them.

Its not as simple as work harder and get with the times, although it technically is. In theory it is not in the spirit of the game and is a deterrant

Do they impact whether i play less or more? NO

Playing poker is a hobby which does cost most, yet all the additional things on top just make it not very appealing
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« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2015, 09:12:33 PM »

To RFGGBASSDS:

How about turning your hud and all your tools off for a couple of weeks and play and see if your winrate is the same as when your are using the software.




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