Manchester Arena bombing

[SuuPRlim]

I'm sure many on here couldn't expand their mind 1mm past political correctness and watch it

Whenever people say something like this it is usually always the case that they themselves are being very narrow minded on a subject, you're not really saying people can't expand their minds you're really saying that people who think something different to you are refusing to agree with you...

I watched the video, and found it interesting, he speaks very well and is extremely convincing, he makes some points you cant really help but agree with and provides some evidence that supports his case well. Just like all political propaganda though it is edited and presented in the context you want it in, and the result of his political activism was the creation of an extremist group, using examples presented in an extreme light to encourage people to support and share his beliefs. You cannot ignore the irony in that. In defending the laws of the country he himself committed crimes and that is not irrelevant.

If he is speaking honestly and not just sugar-coating racist beliefs to gain mainstream approval then one thing that he says I completely agree with is his closing statement, "the only way to fix this is to bring each side together" working to integrate young impressionable communities together, young muslims who might be venerable to radicalisation and disillusioned people like Tommy Robinson at age 19, bring them together - show each side they are just people and it's fine to get along, when Jhiadi radicalisation comes knocking the young muslim will say, NO - I'm not fighting against british non muslims because they are my friends.

When i say things like this I'm a do-gooder liberal, but that is EXACTLY what I think. Ignorance is the root of all this, it's a war and we're not unified against the enemies, they are driving holes right through us and groups like EDL do nothing but further this unfortunately. We need to stand strong and say NO ISIS, we refuse to blame Islam, preach all the hate you want we don't share it.

Tommy Robinson is clearly very passionate about his beliefs and I respect that, my beliefs are in civil liberties, millions died for them and I will stand up for them.  I share the frustration that Islamic extremists, hate preachers and active/would be terrorists live here in the UK, and a lot of them claim benefits - the costs of this must be astronomical and the fact this goes on when schools and hospitals are desperate for funding makes my blood boil, as it does so many people.

It's a very common thing to mistake people who think big picture in terms of civil liberties as "politically correct do-gooders" and when you take issues in a vacuum then yes obviously these hate preachers should just be instantly deported, arrested or even killed, but we live in a state where you're innocent until proven guilty, where everyone has the right to human rights and where you can say, think and believe what you want as long as you stay within the laws of the country. When you start to make exceptions to this you set up for serious abuse.

If a lady in the house next to you is stabbed with a kitchen knife, the police come to you and say...You were in last night...You have a kitchen knife...You're under arrest. It's easy to forget when you're coming from a super privileged position as a white british man but these civil rights and liberties protect you everyday as well. The fact the we have these rights and liberties is THE MAIN DIFFERENCE between us and ISIS and it's very important that we remember that. I'm as up for throwing these disgusting hate preachers and jihadi recruiters in the sea as anyone but I refuse to do it at the cost of everything millions of people have died for.

The other thing I dispute is that the police and authorities do nothing, how can that possibly be true? The fury that people who were on a watch list committed a terror attack is really baffling to me, surely you should be miles more annoyed if someone who they had no idea about committed a terror attack?

D.U.C.Y?
 

[Magic817]

leaving aside the ludicrous tommy robinson (i cannot believe he is being espoused in here as a credible commentator, he's a racist, with five criminal convictions)

khurram butt and the like

born in the UK

No criminal record

suspected of being radicalised, been reported by concerned citizens

--

what are we proposing to do?

surely not intern on the off-chance that they "might" do something?

guantanamo bay type solution?

deport? to where? they are British

what is a workable solution here?

I am sorry but all this dancing round is the reason this sort of thing is able to happen in the first place.

If we mark down Hate Marches, as illegal in the first place, we imprison all that attend....thems the rules, you break them you go to prison.

As the death toll increases, doing nothing at the risk of upsetting a few liberal/wishy washy minded folk, wont really bother the majority of decent law abiding citizens.

How is it dancing around?

Stopping hate marches is a good start but you haven't actually answered the questions.

[exstream]

People are saying tommy Robinson isn't credible because he's a criminal, what convictions does he have regarding racism etc that wouldn't make him credible

[SuuPRlim]

People are saying tommy Robinson isn't credible because he's a criminal, what convictions does he have regarding racism etc that wouldn't make him credible

Not saying he isn't credible. Saying that there is racist rhetoric in his speeches and they are also steeped in extreme political propaganda, I agree he makes some points that are totally valid and really hope his change in political direction from leader of an extremist group opposing extremist groups (L.O.L Irony) to a peaceful, diplomatic representative of UK communities is legit because if it is, I think he could like do a lot of good things and bring people together.

[MANTIS01]

Comparing to RTAs and speed is interesting because if you drive at 34mph on a 30mph road the authorities fall over themselves to smack you up with big fines, educational courses and even ban you from the roads. By comparison this Khuram Butt clown can openly worship the ISIS flag in public, call for our destruction, visit terror websites and associate with known terrorists but like Tighty says...no criminal record, no action taken. Perhaps we should have the same conviction, the same thirst for action to clamp down on people blowing us up as we enjoy a relaxing glass of Chateauneuf-du-pape on a Friday night? So yep, just like motoring, let's take action against the most minor indiscretion. Mr Butt, one of our several million terrorcams flashed you praying in front of the ISIS flag. As such you will be required to attend an educational course at your nearest prison. The course will be residential and will last for one year, it will involve you sewing fabric to make union jacks which we will sell for charity to tourists on London Bridge.

[SuuPRlim]

I agree it's an insult for people living in the UK, enjoying the UK benefit system telling UK Police to go to hell etc - it's very easy to just think...if you hate the UK you're free to fuck off and live somewhere else...

[DMorgan]

tbf the Oxford talk is pretty striking

He uses a lot of clumsy language that makes him sound way worse than he is. Its pretty clear from watching the talk that he isn't bothered about Muslims that aren't engaged in criminal activity

His beef is much more with the police and local services that do little to tackle overt extremism than it is with the wider concept of Islam

[SuuPRlim]

Should all police carry guns?

Thoughts?

[exstream]

Should all police carry guns?

Thoughts?

We should all carry them!

[Magic817]

Should all police carry guns?

Thoughts?

I think suicide bombers would think twice if there was a higher chance of them being shot.

[Doobs]

Comparing to RTAs and speed is interesting because if you drive at 34mph on a 30mph road the authorities fall over themselves to smack you up with big fines, educational courses and even ban you from the roads. By comparison this Khuram Butt clown can openly worship the ISIS flag in public, call for our destruction, visit terror websites and associate with known terrorists but like Tighty says...no criminal record, no action taken. Perhaps we should have the same conviction, the same thirst for action to clamp down on people blowing us up as we enjoy a relaxing glass of Chateauneuf-du-pape on a Friday night? So yep, just like motoring, let's take action against the most minor indiscretion. Mr Butt, one of our several million terrorcams flashed you praying in front of the ISIS flag. As such you will be required to attend an educational course at your nearest prison. The course will be residential and will last for one year, it will involve you sewing fabric to make union jacks which we will sell for charity to tourists on London Bridge.

You watched the video?  The police did stop him after he did his ISIS flag stunt and he was on their radar.  So they clearly took some action, though hindsight shows it wasn't enough. 

I'd suggest that Butt is clearly more likely to get pulled over for the ISIS flag stunt than you are for doing 34 in a 30. 

[DMorgan]

I think suicide bombers would think twice if there was a higher chance of them being shot.

...

eh?

[Jon MW]

leaving aside the ludicrous tommy robinson (i cannot believe he is being espoused in here as a credible commentator, he's a racist, with five criminal convictions)

khurram butt and the like

born in the UK

No criminal record

suspected of being radicalised, been reported by concerned citizens

--

what are we proposing to do?

surely not intern on the off-chance that they "might" do something?

guantanamo bay type solution?

deport? to where? they are British

what is a workable solution here?

I am sorry but all this dancing round is the reason this sort of thing is able to happen in the first place.

If we mark down Hate Marches, as illegal in the first place, we imprison all that attend....thems the rules, you break them you go to prison.

As the death toll increases, doing nothing at the risk of upsetting a few liberal/wishy washy minded folk, wont really bother the majority of decent law abiding citizens.

How long would you imprison them for?

Because if they were just angry and wanting to shout a lot before they got imprisoned, they'll almost definitely come out wanting to kill and maim instead.

- so excellent suggestion if you want to increase the terrorist threat

[titaniumbean]

I think suicide bombers would think twice if there was a higher chance of them being shot.

...

eh?

Daniel meet Matthew.


Matthew has done a funny.
 

[DMorgan]

whoooooooshed so so hard

wp