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Author Topic: schoolgirl who joined IS but wants to come home.  (Read 10943 times)
Pokerpops
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« Reply #330 on: April 15, 2019, 03:46:25 PM »

Daily Telegraph reporting today that Begum was an IS "enforcer" who helped to sew terrorists into their suicide vests and roamed the streets brandishing a Kalashnikov looking for women breaking the dress code. I also heard simply travelling to areas of conflict will now be an offence punishable by 10yrs in prison. Do liberals still think she's a sweet innocent child who simply made bad choices like any teen and should be welcomed home?


Now granted legal aid. So effectively she is no longer a Uk citizen but has been given access to yours and my taxes to finance, free, her application to come back.

What the fuck is up with this country?

Waiting for the usual suspects to pipe up now about fairness, human rights blah blah....

Until the legal,process has been completed I would say she’s still a UK Citizen. As such she’s as entitled to Legal Aid as anyone else. Let’s not forget that she hasn’t actually been convicted of anything yet. Other than in the courtroom of the Little Sodoff Golf and Country Club that is.

blah blah blah blah

I understand completely where you are coming from on this issue btw, but there are some principles to which we should hold tight. Accessible legal advice for all in the pursuit of a fair trial being one of them.
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« Reply #331 on: April 15, 2019, 05:13:36 PM »

Daily Telegraph reporting today that Begum was an IS "enforcer" who helped to sew terrorists into their suicide vests and roamed the streets brandishing a Kalashnikov looking for women breaking the dress code. I also heard simply travelling to areas of conflict will now be an offence punishable by 10yrs in prison. Do liberals still think she's a sweet innocent child who simply made bad choices like any teen and should be welcomed home?


Now granted legal aid. So effectively she is no longer a Uk citizen but has been given access to yours and my taxes to finance, free, her application to come back.

What the fuck is up with this country?

Waiting for the usual suspects to pipe up now about fairness, human rights blah blah....


I was going to venture an opinion but I'm guessing you don't want to hear it if it isn't the same as yours.
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Pokerpops
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« Reply #332 on: April 15, 2019, 06:14:12 PM »

Daily Telegraph reporting today that Begum was an IS "enforcer" who helped to sew terrorists into their suicide vests and roamed the streets brandishing a Kalashnikov looking for women breaking the dress code. I also heard simply travelling to areas of conflict will now be an offence punishable by 10yrs in prison. Do liberals still think she's a sweet innocent child who simply made bad choices like any teen and should be welcomed home?


Now granted legal aid. So effectively she is no longer a Uk citizen but has been given access to yours and my taxes to finance, free, her application to come back.

What the fuck is up with this country?

Waiting for the usual suspects to pipe up now about fairness, human rights blah blah....


I was going to venture an opinion but I'm guessing you don't want to hear it if it isn't the same as yours.

Along with a just society, free speech is another principle which we should cling to. Venture away Mr Dog.
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« Reply #333 on: April 15, 2019, 07:45:10 PM »

Daily Telegraph reporting today that Begum was an IS "enforcer" who helped to sew terrorists into their suicide vests and roamed the streets brandishing a Kalashnikov looking for women breaking the dress code. I also heard simply travelling to areas of conflict will now be an offence punishable by 10yrs in prison. Do liberals still think she's a sweet innocent child who simply made bad choices like any teen and should be welcomed home?


Now granted legal aid. So effectively she is no longer a Uk citizen but has been given access to yours and my taxes to finance, free, her application to come back.

What the fuck is up with this country?

Waiting for the usual suspects to pipe up now about fairness, human rights blah blah....


I was going to venture an opinion but I'm guessing you don't want to hear it if it isn't the same as yours.


Sometimes/ often you really don't add much at all Tom, a point in case above.

Of course I want your view, but I can probably guess what it will be now.

Just because we may disagree, I enjoy the debate. It is, I mean, was a democracy and a place of freedom of speech not so long ago, that we live in.
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Pokerpops
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« Reply #334 on: April 15, 2019, 10:59:25 PM »

Daily Telegraph reporting today that Begum was an IS "enforcer" who helped to sew terrorists into their suicide vests and roamed the streets brandishing a Kalashnikov looking for women breaking the dress code. I also heard simply travelling to areas of conflict will now be an offence punishable by 10yrs in prison. Do liberals still think she's a sweet innocent child who simply made bad choices like any teen and should be welcomed home?


Now granted legal aid. So effectively she is no longer a Uk citizen but has been given access to yours and my taxes to finance, free, her application to come back.

What the fuck is up with this country?

Waiting for the usual suspects to pipe up now about fairness, human rights blah blah....


I was going to venture an opinion but I'm guessing you don't want to hear it if it isn't the same as yours.


Sometimes/ often you really don't add much at all Tom, a point in case above.

Of course I want your view, but I can probably guess what it will be now.

Just because we may disagree, I enjoy the debate. It is, I mean, was a democracy and a place of freedom of speech not so long ago, that we live in.


This may side-track us somewhat, but freedom of speech is at risk at the moment.
The concept of “no-platforming” people has no place in a free society.
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #335 on: April 15, 2019, 11:19:55 PM »

On the one hand we have evidence that the girl flew off to Syria to join ISIS and now sources confirm she was an active member, carrying arms and sewing suicide vests. It is now going to be a criminal offence to simply take the first action of travelling to Syria.

On the other hand we have people saying she hasn't been convicted in a court of law and speculating it's obviously just the press trying to add fuel to the story.

So it's kinda reasonable to pass opinion in the negative imo.

Folk get vilified every day who haven't been convicted of crimes in a court of law. A lot of those folk haven't flown to Syria to join ISIS.
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« Reply #336 on: April 15, 2019, 11:24:47 PM »

Daily Telegraph reporting today that Begum was an IS "enforcer" who helped to sew terrorists into their suicide vests and roamed the streets brandishing a Kalashnikov looking for women breaking the dress code. I also heard simply travelling to areas of conflict will now be an offence punishable by 10yrs in prison. Do liberals still think she's a sweet innocent child who simply made bad choices like any teen and should be welcomed home?


Now granted legal aid. So effectively she is no longer a Uk citizen but has been given access to yours and my taxes to finance, free, her application to come back.

What the fuck is up with this country?

Waiting for the usual suspects to pipe up now about fairness, human rights blah blah....


I was going to venture an opinion but I'm guessing you don't want to hear it if it isn't the same as yours.


Sometimes/ often you really don't add much at all Tom, a point in case above.

Of course I want your view, but I can probably guess what it will be now.

Just because we may disagree, I enjoy the debate. It is, I mean, was a democracy and a place of freedom of speech not so long ago, that we live in.


OK. I'm actually on your side with this. I hate the fact that she has been granted legal aid but everything has to be done right, and be seen to be done right, not for her sake but for the sake of everyone else.

We can't allow anyone to make decisions that go unchallenged, that's why even murderers like the New Zealand shooter will get a trial. We all saw him do it but the evidence must still be tested and he should have his day in court, not to protect his rights, but to protect those of everyone else who is accused of something, because God knows, some of them will be innocent.
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« Reply #337 on: April 15, 2019, 11:26:58 PM »

Otherwise, who decides who gets a fair trial?
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« Reply #338 on: April 16, 2019, 01:29:25 AM »

Otherwise, who decides who gets a fair trial?

This is the clincher for me. It's really easy to say people at the far end should have their citizenship revoked, and that they have forfeited rights like the right to legal aid, but where do we draw the line and who decides? The idea of someone just deciding another person isn't worthy of the same rights as the rest of us should be a chilling one, and it frightens me how happy some people are when they see other's rights being taken. I'd think it much better to avoid drawing that line in the first place, to protect our own rights as much as anyone else's.
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« Reply #339 on: April 16, 2019, 05:30:43 AM »

Otherwise, who decides who gets a fair trial?

This is the clincher for me. It's really easy to say people at the far end should have their citizenship revoked, and that they have forfeited rights like the right to legal aid, but where do we draw the line and who decides? The idea of someone just deciding another person isn't worthy of the same rights as the rest of us should be a chilling one, and it frightens me how happy some people are when they see other's rights being taken. I'd think it much better to avoid drawing that line in the first place, to protect our own rights as much as anyone else's.


Yeah, I get that , but some are cut and dry and a waste of all our money. Intent should overall everything when terrorism is the motive.
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #340 on: April 16, 2019, 06:01:29 AM »

Otherwise, who decides who gets a fair trial?

This is the clincher for me. It's really easy to say people at the far end should have their citizenship revoked, and that they have forfeited rights like the right to legal aid, but where do we draw the line and who decides? The idea of someone just deciding another person isn't worthy of the same rights as the rest of us should be a chilling one, and it frightens me how happy some people are when they see other's rights being taken. I'd think it much better to avoid drawing that line in the first place, to protect our own rights as much as anyone else's.

Yeah, I get that , but some are cut and dry and a waste of all our money. Intent should overall everything when terrorism is the motive.

So where do we draw the line and who decides?

In terms of the cost, it will be pennies each, we should happily take the hit to preserve the most fundamental rule that our system of justice is founded on.

It’s still crazy how disproportionately worried about terrorists you are.

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MANTIS01
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« Reply #341 on: April 16, 2019, 07:04:17 AM »

Our soldiers shoot/bomb loads of folk dead without a fair trial.

Why do we decide these victims don’t deserve a fair trial
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« Reply #342 on: April 16, 2019, 07:07:16 AM »

Loads of folk vilifying Michael Jacko and not playing his music

When did he get a fair trial
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« Reply #343 on: April 16, 2019, 07:09:58 AM »

Our soldiers shoot/bomb loads of folk dead without a fair trial.

Why do we decide these victims don’t deserve a fair trial


It’s a good question. Handily we let ourselves define what constitutes a war, the rules are different then.
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« Reply #344 on: April 16, 2019, 07:11:10 AM »

This is a case we absolutely want to be heard.

The government is wanting to remove the citizenship of someone born here. Even if there was a video of her beheading someone I'd want this case to be heard. The only way these arguments are going to be heard is if she has legal representation. As this case could set precedent, it's important the best case is made for her. Regardless of your opinion of this girl, this is a very important case

Legal aid is under attack by the gutter press and it's sad to see.

When the state is trying to impose an action on you, the right to basic competent legal defence should be cherished. The fee is a standard fee and when you see headline figures of 100k you have to remember that does not go to the accused. It is paid directly to the legal team. Vat is applicable, as is income tax and national insurance. The actual cost to the tax payer is much less than the reported figure
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