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RED-DOG
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« Reply #1980 on: May 04, 2020, 09:21:40 PM »

Sorry to hear your sad news Arb. My condolences.
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« Reply #1981 on: May 04, 2020, 09:22:18 PM »

Sorry to hear your sad news Arb. My condolences.

thanks red appreciate it.
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« Reply #1982 on: May 04, 2020, 10:12:51 PM »

The government is now paying 6.5m people's wages in this country.   As a pro punter who doesn't get this pay out ( i don't care and don't want it - the pay out) i am interested in people's views on my views.  There are probably 1-2m people in the country out of those 6m who are sitting on huge property equity and other share/savings wealth from the previous 2 decades of successive governments looking afterr them as house owners.  Is there a moral obligation to refuse governement hand outs as a worker who has a few quid when you don't need it to get by for a few months and save the government building up debts for the next geneation to have to pay off?   I have spoke to numerous people who are sitting at home on a fully paid extended holiday doing zero work and loving life whilst the nhs, government and business is bang under it?   What are people's views?
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« Reply #1983 on: May 04, 2020, 10:45:21 PM »

Secondly people who run businesses who claim to be out of cash in 2/3 weeks but they have mortgage free houses/second houses and other assets in ttheir own name.   If you run a business you are a punter.  When the going gets tough you can't expect or claim to be out of cash in 2/3 weeks like most of these business owners are doing?  Try remortgaging your house/other assets if you beleive in your business and stop sending the country and the government skint.   Part of having a bet in business is coping withh the downswings.  Imagine if everytime i had a major downswing as a pro punter i went to the government for a bail out i would be laughed out of town.   Why are these asset rich cash poor guessers any different?  Convert your assets into cash or sell up.  The government isn't there to bail out lol businesses that can'tt last 3 months without a loan.  If your business can't last 3 months cash wise you don't really have a business long term.

You caan't have it both ways.  You want the security of having a wage in the bad times but all the profits and glory in the good times it seems to most of these lol businessmen.  Branson included.
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« Reply #1984 on: May 04, 2020, 11:03:00 PM »

Sorry for your loss Arb. Your words were very evocative and your Gran and Grandad sound very much like my parents.
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« Reply #1985 on: May 04, 2020, 11:04:27 PM »

Sorry for your loss Arb. Your words were very evocative and your Gran and Grandad sound very much like my parents.

thanks pops they were a generation i hope we see again work wise and ethics wise but i doubt we will. 
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« Reply #1986 on: May 04, 2020, 11:22:49 PM »

Hi Arb

Really sorry to hear the news about your Gran.

Like others said, sounds like she had a good long life.

My dad's 95, and so its a scary story to here.

I'll respond to your two questions above tomorrow.
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« Reply #1987 on: May 04, 2020, 11:54:52 PM »

Hi Arb

Really sorry to hear the news about your Gran.

Like others said, sounds like she had a good long life.

My dad's 95, and so its a scary story to here.

I'll respond to your two questions above tomorrow.

thanks stu looking forward to your responses from the other side of the fence!
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« Reply #1988 on: May 04, 2020, 11:59:26 PM »

The government is now paying 6.5m people's wages in this country.   As a pro punter who doesn't get this pay out ( i don't care and don't want it - the pay out) i am interested in people's views on my views.  There are probably 1-2m people in the country out of those 6m who are sitting on huge property equity and other share/savings wealth from the previous 2 decades of successive governments looking afterr them as house owners.  Is there a moral obligation to refuse governement hand outs as a worker who has a few quid when you don't need it to get by for a few months and save the government building up debts for the next geneation to have to pay off?   I have spoke to numerous people who are sitting at home on a fully paid extended holiday doing zero work and loving life whilst the nhs, government and business is bang under it?   What are people's views?

Such an interesting question. I think there are a large number of people loving life to use your words but I'm not sure that stretches to a moral obligation to turn down handouts.

 I spoke to a good friend of mine who is MD of a division of a reasonably large group and was previously the MD at a company where I was a director (title only, no legal effect). He has taken a very easy line with people who are on the vulnerable list  (naturally, he's a decent guy) but a very hard line on chancers who are trying to avoid going to work at all costs. Outside of the extremely cosseted world of very large companies and large parts of the Public Sector there will be quite a reckoning in job losses further down the line as small to mid size companies review their employees contribution over the last month or so.

OTOH, and to your other post, my son works for a small company specialising in services to the craft beer industry. It's a good company, in normal times they do reasonably well without anyone getting rich but without the furlough scheme I don't think there's any chance the company could survive for more than 3 months with almost zero cash flow. I don't think that is completely unusual for many small businesses and I would hesitate to brand them all as unviable businesses - a number of people can earn a living in normal times and the owner isn't banking massive reserves of cash but these companies drive a lot of the economy.

Yes, he has a house and is comfortable but I'd tend to think that's not something he should be putting at risk specifically in this situation when he can be a good employer, generating a living for a number of people for the  next 30-40 years if he's assisted at this time.

I'd certainly think he's as deserving of support as any average employee but there is a lot of inequity in the way this situation is playing out.

Sorry, 2 large bowls of Gin and Prosecco tonight and my thoughts are a bit scrambled.



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« Reply #1989 on: May 05, 2020, 12:02:14 AM »

The government is now paying 6.5m people's wages in this country.   As a pro punter who doesn't get this pay out ( i don't care and don't want it - the pay out) i am interested in people's views on my views.  There are probably 1-2m people in the country out of those 6m who are sitting on huge property equity and other share/savings wealth from the previous 2 decades of successive governments looking afterr them as house owners.  Is there a moral obligation to refuse governement hand outs as a worker who has a few quid when you don't need it to get by for a few months and save the government building up debts for the next geneation to have to pay off?   I have spoke to numerous people who are sitting at home on a fully paid extended holiday doing zero work and loving life whilst the nhs, government and business is bang under it?   What are people's views?

Such an interesting question. I think there are a large number of people loving life to use your words but I'm not sure that stretches to a moral obligation to turn down handouts.

 I spoke to a good friend of mine who is MD of a division of a reasonably large group and was previously the MD at a company where I was a director (title only, no legal effect). He has taken a very easy line with people who are on the vulnerable list  (naturally, he's a decent guy) but a very hard line on chancers who are trying to avoid going to work at all costs. Outside of the extremely cosseted world of very large companies and large parts of the Public Sector there will be quite a reckoning in job losses further down the line as small to mid size companies review their employees contribution over the last month or so.

OTOH, and to your other post, my son works for a small company specialising in services to the craft beer industry. It's a good company, in normal times they do reasonably well without anyone getting rich but without the furlough scheme I don't think there's any chance the company could survive for more than 3 months with almost zero cash flow. I don't think that is completely unusual for many small businesses and I would hesitate to brand them all as unviable businesses - a number of people can earn a living in normal times and the owner isn't banking massive reserves of cash but these companies drive a lot of the economy.

Yes, he has a house and is comfortable but I'd tend to think that's not something he should be putting at risk specifically in this situation when he can be a good employer, generating a living for a number of people for the  next 30-40 years if he's assisted at this time.

I'd certainly think he's as deserving of support as any average employee but there is a lot of inequity in the way this situation is playing out.

Sorry, 2 large bowls of Gin and Prosecco tonight and my thoughts are a bit scrambled.





I have had a few as well but i have been thinking about this question for a while whilst reading about a lot of people effectively paying off their credit card debts with government money whilst they are on full pay not working and can't spend it because everything is closed.  I am genuinely interested in peoples views from all sides.
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« Reply #1990 on: May 05, 2020, 06:25:40 AM »


Sorry to hear of your loss Arb, thoughts are with you and your family. Great to hear your stories of her life, sounds like she lived well  RIP x
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« Reply #1991 on: May 05, 2020, 06:55:28 AM »

The government is now paying 6.5m people's wages in this country.   As a pro punter who doesn't get this pay out ( i don't care and don't want it - the pay out) i am interested in people's views on my views.  There are probably 1-2m people in the country out of those 6m who are sitting on huge property equity and other share/savings wealth from the previous 2 decades of successive governments looking afterr them as house owners.  Is there a moral obligation to refuse governement hand outs as a worker who has a few quid when you don't need it to get by for a few months and save the government building up debts for the next geneation to have to pay off?   I have spoke to numerous people who are sitting at home on a fully paid extended holiday doing zero work and loving life whilst the nhs, government and business is bang under it?   What are people's views?

"There are probably 1-2m people in the country out of those 6m who are sitting on huge property equity and other share/savings wealth from the previous 2 decades of successive governments looking afterr them as house owners. "

I don't think it would be that high.

There might be a group of people in that position, but I think they're more likely to be the people who aren't furloughed and are just working from home. I would have thought the vast majority are people in not as well paid jobs, who will lose their jobs if this scheme wasn't in place. A fair few of them might have equity value in their house, but that would be with a mortgage. Putting yourself into debt, or putting yourself into more debt just as a recession is likely to hit seems to be the worst kind of financial advice possible. If the government scheme wasn't in place those people would lose their jobs - they would be better off just being unemployed then giving themselves more debt.


Secondly people who run businesses who claim to be out of cash in 2/3 weeks but they have mortgage free houses/second houses and other assets in ttheir own name.   If you run a business you are a punter.  When the going gets tough you can't expect or claim to be out of cash in 2/3 weeks like most of these business owners are doing?  Try remortgaging your house/other assets if you beleive in your business and stop sending the country and the government skint.   Part of having a bet in business is coping withh the downswings.  Imagine if everytime i had a major downswing as a pro punter i went to the government for a bail out i would be laughed out of town.   Why are these asset rich cash poor guessers any different?  Convert your assets into cash or sell up.  The government isn't there to bail out lol businesses that can'tt last 3 months without a loan.  If your business can't last 3 months cash wise you don't really have a business long term.

You caan't have it both ways.  You want the security of having a wage in the bad times but all the profits and glory in the good times it seems to most of these lol businessmen.  Branson included.

Similarly I think a lot of people who run businesses probably aren't mortgage free.

And if your business might run out of cash, then why would a bank let you remortgage your assets? (certainly not for a good rate)

One of the underlying assumptions in the governments loan scheme was that it is meant for the businesses that would be okay if it weren't for COVID19. If a company can make a profit from month to month and year to year after paying it's staff then that is a company that has no reason to be out of business. That doesn't mean it makes enough profit to bank an ever growing cash reserve (I think a lot of business theory suggests it's a bad idea to carry too much cash as well).

99% of the businesses in the country have less than 50 employees, and these are the companies (and employees) that are most likely to be in a more precarious situation and most helped by the government schemes.
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« Reply #1992 on: May 05, 2020, 08:28:00 AM »

The government is now paying 6.5m people's wages in this country.   As a pro punter who doesn't get this pay out ( i don't care and don't want it - the pay out) i am interested in people's views on my views.  There are probably 1-2m people in the country out of those 6m who are sitting on huge property equity and other share/savings wealth from the previous 2 decades of successive governments looking afterr them as house owners.  Is there a moral obligation to refuse governement hand outs as a worker who has a few quid when you don't need it to get by for a few months and save the government building up debts for the next geneation to have to pay off?   I have spoke to numerous people who are sitting at home on a fully paid extended holiday doing zero work and loving life whilst the nhs, government and business is bang under it?   What are people's views?

Morning

I think your 1-2 million sitting on huge property equity is massively overstated.
If you think everyone in hospitality, retail, tourism are furloughed, they are going to make up a large chunk of that 6m, and they aren't going to be in there 50's.
Your right though, I am sure there are some people who are furloughed who could get through without it.

Anyone with furloughed with a mortgage probably doesn't need 80% of their wage if they have taken the 3 month mortgage holiday.
 
I would suggest that for 90% of those currently furloughed, the chance of redundancy in the next 12 months has increased greatly. So whether they are roflling around at home or doing some good financial planning, receiving the furlough monies is probably the right thing for them to do.

Another point worth making is that it is the employers choice not the employees. They would have just received a letter stating they are being furloughed. Employees arent claiming at such, they are just getting paid as usual.

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« Reply #1993 on: May 05, 2020, 08:42:01 AM »

Secondly people who run businesses who claim to be out of cash in 2/3 weeks but they have mortgage free houses/second houses and other assets in ttheir own name.   If you run a business you are a punter.  When the going gets tough you can't expect or claim to be out of cash in 2/3 weeks like most of these business owners are doing?  Try remortgaging your house/other assets if you beleive in your business and stop sending the country and the government skint.   Part of having a bet in business is coping withh the downswings.  Imagine if everytime i had a major downswing as a pro punter i went to the government for a bail out i would be laughed out of town.   Why are these asset rich cash poor guessers any different?  Convert your assets into cash or sell up.  The government isn't there to bail out lol businesses that can'tt last 3 months without a loan.  If your business can't last 3 months cash wise you don't really have a business long term.

You caan't have it both ways.  You want the security of having a wage in the bad times but all the profits and glory in the good times it seems to most of these lol businessmen.  Branson included.

Small business isn’t getting a bail out as far as I know?   If you are sole MD then you take most salary via dividends which isn’t covered.  You could furlough yourself and get the small PAYE payment but you’d need to suspend trading so it isn’t worth it?   That’s the position my Mrs is in anyway so she’s just drawing on the company cash reserves for rest of year and trying to position the Business to sprint out of lockdown.

The government has decided to bail out sole traders and big business but not smaller business owners.  It is what it is - can’t save everyone I suppose.
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« Reply #1994 on: May 05, 2020, 08:42:48 AM »

Secondly people who run businesses who claim to be out of cash in 2/3 weeks but they have mortgage free houses/second houses and other assets in ttheir own name.   If you run a business you are a punter.  When the going gets tough you can't expect or claim to be out of cash in 2/3 weeks like most of these business owners are doing?  Try remortgaging your house/other assets if you beleive in your business and stop sending the country and the government skint.   Part of having a bet in business is coping withh the downswings.  Imagine if everytime i had a major downswing as a pro punter i went to the government for a bail out i would be laughed out of town.   Why are these asset rich cash poor guessers any different?  Convert your assets into cash or sell up.  The government isn't there to bail out lol businesses that can'tt last 3 months without a loan.  If your business can't last 3 months cash wise you don't really have a business long term.

You caan't have it both ways.  You want the security of having a wage in the bad times but all the profits and glory in the good times it seems to most of these lol businessmen.  Branson included.

Secondly people who run businesses who claim to be out of cash in 2/3 weeks but they have mortgage free houses/second houses and other assets in their own name.

Again I think the number of people in that situation is tiny. Any of them going to the bank for a CBIL would need to put there mortgage free houses up as security anyway.

On the other hand the number of business that run to their expected cashflow is huge. Many will have enough money to cover a downswing for a few months, maybe a year but downswing for a business would normally be a 20% drop in sales, that sees your net drop to breakeven or below. Not many businesses prepare for their income dropping to zero for 3 months while the majority of bills and commitments still need to be paid.

I am sure there are some asset rich people looking for assistance but the banks will be taking security over those assets.



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