Vegas & The Aftermath - Diary

[LLevan]

I personally believe it is no longer possible to play the UK Tournament Poker Circuit without sponsorship. Apart from the travelling and living expenses required to turn up at tournaments the entry fees have risen whereby it is now a minimum of £1000 entry to play most main events not even mentioning playing side events. Most of these festivals are every other week now so I would imagine if you are not sponsored the total cost including expenses for a whole year of playing the UK circuit, which doesnt include the EPTs where the mega prize money is, would come to somewhere in the region of £75,000. Minor cashes in main events only pay you a small return so you would need to have a 1st or 2nd at least once a year in order to probably only breaking even on the year.
Also I believe with the advent of sponsored players the start of tournaments has become a lottery as the value of hands has decreased and it always amazes me when reading the updates how many players are eliminated in the early levels. Players who have satellited into a main event or who are sponsored dont consider they are risking such a big investment as those that have paid in and are more prepared to risk all for a good start and to try and accumulate chips.

[Royal Flush]

I personally believe it is no longer possible to play the UK Tournament Poker Circuit without sponsorship. Apart from the travelling and living expenses required to turn up at tournaments the entry fees have risen whereby it is now a minimum of £1000 entry to play most main events not even mentioning playing side events. Most of these festivals are every other week now so I would imagine if you are not sponsored the total cost including expenses for a whole year of playing the UK circuit, which doesnt include the EPTs where the mega prize money is, would come to somewhere in the region of £75,000. Minor cashes in main events only pay you a small return so you would need to have a 1st or 2nd at least once a year in order to probably only breaking even on the year.
Also I believe with the advent of sponsored players the start of tournaments has become a lottery as the value of hands has decreased and it always amazes me when reading the updates how many players are eliminated in the early levels. Players who have satellited into a main event or who are sponsored dont consider they are risking such a big investment as those that have paid in and are more prepared to risk all for a good start and to try and accumulate chips.

Everything you said there proves the opposite of the intended....

Only now is it possible to make a living on the UK circuit as there are enough events with big buyins, if you are a winning player the more you can spend on buyins in a year the better, you live of your ROI so higher volume means more cash!

I don't understand how players playing badly can make it harder as well?

You deffo couldnt make a living when it was 200£ events every 2 weeks, you can when its 500/750/1000 all the time.

[Royal Flush]

If you are a full time poker player there is nothing wrong with taking the odd shot at bigger events, once a month say with GPT's

Assuming you run at a profit, no.

That's why i said full time as opposed to 'professional' i am not referring to the hordes of truly awful poker players in this country who are labled big name pro's just because they play all the events, despite the fact they will all be long term losers.

I am thinking of the likes of JP/Moorman/Pab etc all +EV tournament players who make decent money from the game but don't have the rolls to play these games full time.

[bobby1]

Young Stuart Rutter is a great example of a youngster "chasing the dream" & playing the Big Buck Events. But he's doing it the right way. He's earning money the other side of the table, writing articles & taking pics for Poker News, & making sure he has a regular income. Good Man him.

Nobody has a "right" to pkay poker at the expense of others, be it paid for by Sponsors or Nippers, so they need to go earn some money themselves, do it the hard way, earn the right - literally - to play big buck events.

I doff my cap to the Stu Rutters of this world, who have got their Bankroll Management spot on. Instead of begging & borrowing & poncing, he goes out & earns the money he needs to cover Tournament Variance. Were there were more who did the same, eh?

I was going to use a similar example until I noticed you already did in this post. So, am I right in understanding that we are talking about those who go into debt (via nipping, loans and so on) to chase the big bucks rather than folk who, say, buy-in to a big event when there bankroll doesn't justify it, but don't rely on loans, nipping, etc.

For example, lets say someone wanted to play all the GUKPTs and GBPTs throughout 2008. To play these events will cost them all their wages and won't leave them with much, but they won't have nipped or taken out any loans. This is also a form of chasing the big bucks, but without the nipping.

Is this the sort of thing you mean with your Stuart Rutter post?

Fascinating response, thanks for that. Something i'm genuinely interested in.

Let me answer your question with a question then.

In Bankroll Management Terms, & assuming normal Touney Variance, what Bankroll would you need to play.....

1) An EPT Season.

2) A GUKPT Season?

As to "not afford" or "nip", of course it's the Nipping that I find so lamentable, so pitiful, & so endemic in poker. Do folks have no pride these days? To borrow, as I sometimes do (overnight, because I'm not "carrying") even £100 from a close friend such as Tom, Jules or Chili pains & embarrasses me.

Which reminds me of that awful 'phone call I had a few mornings ago.....I've joined the Nipping Brigade myself, it seems! Oh, the shame.......

Well, I don't know the cost of an EPT season, but for a GUKPT (exc Final), I think it's 10k. But let's say someone earns 10k online and uses all that to play the GUKPTs, don't cash, and therefore lose their bankroll and have to go back to building up another 1k to play the next one. I believe there are quite a few players on the circuit who adopte this strategy in the hope tthat sooner or later that win will come. Do you pity these guys, or just the nippers?

Ps. Are you going to name the nipper? It wasn't me was it? Was I sleep nipping again?

My view is that is a crazy way to run a bankroll, if you have a 10k bankroll you should be going nowhere near 1k buy in events.

[b4matt]

I personally believe it is no longer possible to play the UK Tournament Poker Circuit without sponsorship. Apart from the travelling and living expenses required to turn up at tournaments the entry fees have risen whereby it is now a minimum of £1000 entry to play most main events not even mentioning playing side events. Most of these festivals are every other week now so I would imagine if you are not sponsored the total cost including expenses for a whole year of playing the UK circuit, which doesnt include the EPTs where the mega prize money is, would come to somewhere in the region of £75,000. Minor cashes in main events only pay you a small return so you would need to have a 1st or 2nd at least once a year in order to probably only breaking even on the year.
Also I believe with the advent of sponsored players the start of tournaments has become a lottery as the value of hands has decreased and it always amazes me when reading the updates how many players are eliminated in the early levels. Players who have satellited into a main event or who are sponsored dont consider they are risking such a big investment as those that have paid in and are more prepared to risk all for a good start and to try and accumulate chips.

Everything you said there proves the opposite of the intended....

Only now is it possible to make a living on the UK circuit as there are enough events with big buyins, if you are a winning player the more you can spend on buyins in a year the better, you live of your ROI so higher volume means more cash!

I don't understand how players playing badly can make it harder as well?

You deffo couldnt make a living when it was 200£ events every 2 weeks, you can when its 500/750/1000 all the time.

Very good post

[Longy]

Bankroll question for playing are almost impossible to answer on the UK/European circuit as there are simply never enough events to reach the long term.

An internet full time mtt pro is going to have 100+ buyins for whatever buyin he is playing if they are exercising proper bankroll management. So the answer is there was an infinite amount of EPT's and you played them purely as your profession we are talking about a millon euros.

Of course this is totally unrealistic as they are never going to be enough EPT's for that to happen and no-one is going to play purely EPT's for a living. So basically you bankroll for EPT's is however much you can afford to spend on these tourneys. About 100k a year to play the lot and travel costs.

Most of people playing these tournies come into  4 categories:

1) Sponsored Pro's
2) Internet Qualifiers
3) Big online pro's
4) People with load of spare income to lose on poker.

If you don't fit into one of these categories and are paying off your own back to do the tour, you want your head testing imo.

[LLevan]

I personally believe it is no longer possible to play the UK Tournament Poker Circuit without sponsorship. Apart from the travelling and living expenses required to turn up at tournaments the entry fees have risen whereby it is now a minimum of £1000 entry to play most main events not even mentioning playing side events. Most of these festivals are every other week now so I would imagine if you are not sponsored the total cost including expenses for a whole year of playing the UK circuit, which doesnt include the EPTs where the mega prize money is, would come to somewhere in the region of £75,000. Minor cashes in main events only pay you a small return so you would need to have a 1st or 2nd at least once a year in order to probably only breaking even on the year.
Also I believe with the advent of sponsored players the start of tournaments has become a lottery as the value of hands has decreased and it always amazes me when reading the updates how many players are eliminated in the early levels. Players who have satellited into a main event or who are sponsored dont consider they are risking such a big investment as those that have paid in and are more prepared to risk all for a good start and to try and accumulate chips.

Everything you said there proves the opposite of the intended....

Only now is it possible to make a living on the UK circuit as there are enough events with big buyins, if you are a winning player the more you can spend on buyins in a year the better, you live of your ROI so higher volume means more cash!

I don't understand how players playing badly can make it harder as well?

You deffo couldnt make a living when it was 200£ events every 2 weeks, you can when its 500/750/1000 all the time.

Its fair enough to say you live off your ROI however playing the live tournament circuit I dont believe the sample size is big enough to allow for the variance compared to an online MTT pro who can definetely make a living without resorting to playing cash tables.
I'm only going by the fine updates we receive on Blonde but it appears to me that the number of casualties in levels 1 & 2 where on many occassions the chips seem to fly in preflop would indicate a huge amount of variance and possibly a higher percentage of luck is nowadays required in the early stages of a tournament to dodge the bullets than used to be the case maybe 5 or more years ago when the majority of play was post flop. Poker has changed a lot since the advent of online poker but at the end of the day to win a big tournament you still need that little bit of luck to ensure that your good hands stand up when required.
A simple question I'd like to know the answer to:
From this years GUKPT apart from the players finishing either 1st or 2nd or 3rd, which I believe no one managed to do so twice all year, did any other player manage to make it pay over the 11 events?

[Royal Flush]

I personally believe it is no longer possible to play the UK Tournament Poker Circuit without sponsorship. Apart from the travelling and living expenses required to turn up at tournaments the entry fees have risen whereby it is now a minimum of £1000 entry to play most main events not even mentioning playing side events. Most of these festivals are every other week now so I would imagine if you are not sponsored the total cost including expenses for a whole year of playing the UK circuit, which doesnt include the EPTs where the mega prize money is, would come to somewhere in the region of £75,000. Minor cashes in main events only pay you a small return so you would need to have a 1st or 2nd at least once a year in order to probably only breaking even on the year.
Also I believe with the advent of sponsored players the start of tournaments has become a lottery as the value of hands has decreased and it always amazes me when reading the updates how many players are eliminated in the early levels. Players who have satellited into a main event or who are sponsored dont consider they are risking such a big investment as those that have paid in and are more prepared to risk all for a good start and to try and accumulate chips.

Everything you said there proves the opposite of the intended....

Only now is it possible to make a living on the UK circuit as there are enough events with big buyins, if you are a winning player the more you can spend on buyins in a year the better, you live of your ROI so higher volume means more cash!

I don't understand how players playing badly can make it harder as well?

You deffo couldnt make a living when it was 200£ events every 2 weeks, you can when its 500/750/1000 all the time.

Its fair enough to say you live off your ROI however playing the live tournament circuit I dont believe the sample size is big enough to allow for the variance compared to an online MTT pro who can definetely make a living without resorting to playing cash tables.
I'm only going by the fine updates we receive on Blonde but it appears to me that the number of casualties in levels 1 & 2 where on many occassions the chips seem to fly in preflop would indicate a huge amount of variance and possibly a higher percentage of luck is nowadays required in the early stages of a tournament to dodge the bullets than used to be the case maybe 5 or more years ago when the majority of play was post flop. Poker has changed a lot since the advent of online poker but at the end of the day to win a big tournament you still need that little bit of luck to ensure that your good hands stand up when required.
A simple question I'd like to know the answer to:
From this years GUKPT apart from the players finishing either 1st or 2nd or 3rd, which I believe no one managed to do so twice all year, did any other player manage to make it pay over the 11 events?

I only played 8 events but i did.

[LLevan]

I personally believe it is no longer possible to play the UK Tournament Poker Circuit without sponsorship. Apart from the travelling and living expenses required to turn up at tournaments the entry fees have risen whereby it is now a minimum of £1000 entry to play most main events not even mentioning playing side events. Most of these festivals are every other week now so I would imagine if you are not sponsored the total cost including expenses for a whole year of playing the UK circuit, which doesnt include the EPTs where the mega prize money is, would come to somewhere in the region of £75,000. Minor cashes in main events only pay you a small return so you would need to have a 1st or 2nd at least once a year in order to probably only breaking even on the year.
Also I believe with the advent of sponsored players the start of tournaments has become a lottery as the value of hands has decreased and it always amazes me when reading the updates how many players are eliminated in the early levels. Players who have satellited into a main event or who are sponsored dont consider they are risking such a big investment as those that have paid in and are more prepared to risk all for a good start and to try and accumulate chips.

Everything you said there proves the opposite of the intended....

Only now is it possible to make a living on the UK circuit as there are enough events with big buyins, if you are a winning player the more you can spend on buyins in a year the better, you live of your ROI so higher volume means more cash!

I don't understand how players playing badly can make it harder as well?

You deffo couldnt make a living when it was 200£ events every 2 weeks, you can when its 500/750/1000 all the time.

Its fair enough to say you live off your ROI however playing the live tournament circuit I dont believe the sample size is big enough to allow for the variance compared to an online MTT pro who can definetely make a living without resorting to playing cash tables.
I'm only going by the fine updates we receive on Blonde but it appears to me that the number of casualties in levels 1 & 2 where on many occassions the chips seem to fly in preflop would indicate a huge amount of variance and possibly a higher percentage of luck is nowadays required in the early stages of a tournament to dodge the bullets than used to be the case maybe 5 or more years ago when the majority of play was post flop. Poker has changed a lot since the advent of online poker but at the end of the day to win a big tournament you still need that little bit of luck to ensure that your good hands stand up when required.
A simple question I'd like to know the answer to:
From this years GUKPT apart from the players finishing either 1st or 2nd or 3rd, which I believe no one managed to do so twice all year, did any other player manage to make it pay over the 11 events?

I only played 8 events but i did.

Well done
 

[tikay]

Handy Hints.

If you should happen to need to know what the time is right now in Venezuala, just turn your (analogue) watch upside down, & that gives you the correct time, after adding an hour for the BST adjustment.

What would you do without me?

[Rod Paradise]

Handy Hints.

If you should happen to need to know what the time is right now in Venezuala, just turn your (analogue) watch upside down, & that gives you the correct time, after adding an hour for the BST adjustment.

What would you do without me?

Not reading incorrect factoids methinks

Someone's been pulling your leg (probably to see if you read the 'fact' out on TV).

[tikay]

Jeez, it's nearly Crimble, where did the year go?

Anyway, got a fairly quiet week in prospect.

Played DTD on Sunday night, only moderately successful in the Tourney, but had a wonderful time in the £5 £5 Dealers Choice & nicked £650.

Monday was a day off, went to Luton for their splendid £50 + £50 + £50 jobbie, went deep but got busted, so played the £3 £3 Dealers Choice, & nicked another £600.

Tonight (Tuesday) I'm off to The Western for a Private Tourney, hosted by James, who's a Producer at Sky Poker & a great pal, & who's celebrating his 30th Birthday. Bad timing actually, as The Western hold their £200 Monthly Freezeout tonight, but there you go, we can't have everything. James's Comp is a £50 Rebuy, & most of the Sky Presenters & Analysts will be there, should be plenty of bragging rights up for grabs. I intend to bust Richard Orford for sure, & Orpey too. Fish, the both of them. I'll be gentle with Kara.

Wednesday it's Poker Week, we are recording the Poker Week Review of the Year, in South London, an all day affair I imagine, as Compo is not known as Ten-Take Compo for nothing.

Thursday I'm off again - unemployment sucks - & on Friday I'm supposed to go to the Ladbrokes Poker Million Party thingy in London. Not really my cup of tea, but we shall see, I guess I'd better go. Poker is a participant game, not a spectator game, & I suppose everyone will get bladdered. Anyway, I'll probably go, & then slip away early.

Saturday I'm doing the Sky Show (so I'll stay somewhere down South on Friday night, maybe Luton or Feltham), & I'm off on Sunday again, so I'll have another bash at the DTD £200.

That's it then, it's the dreaded Christmas, but I'm back at Sky on both the 27th & 28th, the 27th for a special sort of Christmas Show, in which some poor so & so is gonna "win me for a night". To play poker, I hastily add. On the 28th it's Primo time again, & that's that - another year will have gone. And I'm still here.

[tikay]

Handy Hints.

If you should happen to need to know what the time is right now in Venezuala, just turn your (analogue) watch upside down, & that gives you the correct time, after adding an hour for the BST adjustment.

What would you do without me?

Not reading incorrect factoids methinks

Someone's been pulling your leg (probably to see if you read the 'fact' out on TV).

It's nearly right. A letter in yesterday's "Times" said so. So it must be true......

[tikay]

Ahh, but it was better in the olden days......

Come Friday, it will be 50 years to the day that an amazing football match took place.

The Valley was the venue, it was Charlton Athletic v Huddersfield Town.

Try & picture this.

Huddersfield Town were an amazing 5-1 up.

And their hapless, helpless, hopeless opponents, Charlton, were down to 10 men, due to an injury. (No subs in those days).

But Charlton, from 5-1 down, came back to win the game 7-6.

Fair enough. But can you even begin to imagine how Huddersfield's then Manager handled that result? His name was Bill Shankly. Oh to be a fly on that Dressing Room wall!

[tikay]

If you are a full time poker player there is nothing wrong with taking the odd shot at bigger events, once a month say with GPT's

Assuming you run at a profit, no.

That's why i said full time as opposed to 'professional' i am not referring to the hordes of truly awful poker players in this country who are labled big name pro's just because they play all the events, despite the fact they will all be long term losers.

I am thinking of the likes of JP/Moorman/Pab etc all +EV tournament players who make decent money from the game but don't have the rolls to play these games full time.

I think you are pretty much saying what I'm thinking James.

And if the likes of JP, Moorman & Pab can't afford the roll to play these mega-buck series - well, that says it all.