Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[bobAlike]

While wandering a deserted beach at dawn, stagnant in my work, I saw a man in the distance bending and throwing as he walked the endless stretch toward me. As he came near, I could see that he was throwing starfish, abandoned on the sand by the tide, back into the sea.

When he was close enough I asked him why he was working so hard at this strange task. He said that the sun would dry the starfish and they would die. I said to him that I thought he was foolish. There were thousands of starfish on miles and miles of beach. One man alone could never make a difference. He smiled as he picked up the next starfish.

Hurling it far into the sea he said, "It makes a difference for this one."

I abandoned my writing and spent the morning throwing starfish.

           - Loren Eiseley

I hear you Bro.

I've been thinking about this and I must confess I don't hear...

a) The writer spent the morning throwing Starfish, only the morning. And then what, bogged off back to his writing? Or down the pub? Or whatever selfish pursuit he wanted to indulge himself in, never to throw Starfish again.

Why not throw these poor Starfish back for the whole day at least? Or make a regular daily habit of throwing Starfish every day? You know why he doesn't? Because the writer doesn't give a single fcuk about Starfish. It is pretend. After a couple of hours he can't be arsed anymore, it's too exhausting to carry on with this nonsense. Might as well just get on with his life instead. So if we are using this piece as advice for challenging minor social comments we can see that even this Starfish hero gives up pretty quickly because it really isn't worth the time and effort.

b) Every nature documentary I see people never intervene with nature, they always say you must let nature take it's course.

So yeah I don't hear. Imo the writer is simply satisfying himself at every turn.

How long he spent throwing Starfish isn't really the point though is it? The point is, up untill then he had strolled past Starfish like that business man strolled past an abandoned newborn in a Chinese gutter, and for much the same reason.
Then someone showed him that that wasnt the only option. He could act differently, if only for that instance. Then he could go to the pub.
Now here's the clever bit.
There were some kids on the beach building sandcastles who only interaction with a Starfish usualy was to chop its arms off with their spades, but after they saw the guy rescuing them they suddenley realised that the Starfish were living creatures who deserved every chance they could get.
So they spent the rest of the afternoon throwing Starfish back, and when their mam shouted them in for their teas they told her all about the fantastic Starfish and how they had saved them, and mam said 'That's nice dears', but that evening, when she took the dog out for a crap, she saw a Starfish washed in by the high tide, and fighting the feelings of repulsion she always felt when faced with this alien species she flicked it back into the surf with the toe of her flip flop.

Starfish saving eventually caught on, it became normal behavior for the visitors to the beach to be kind to the sea creatures, kind of second nature, no big thing, just people taking a few seconds out of their day for the benefit of something else.
Of course there will never be a happy ending to this story because Starfish will always wash up, but it's the best they can do, and thats always better than nothing. 

Are we now inundated with Stafish? Surely natural selection and all that. Not that I'm one for letting a living creature suffer or die but pretty sure for the amount of Starfish born every year a certain %age are expected not to live. If we start saving all the Starfish then what impact will it have on the Starfish habitat and all the other creatures that live there?

[RED-DOG]

While wandering a deserted beach at dawn, stagnant in my work, I saw a man in the distance bending and throwing as he walked the endless stretch toward me. As he came near, I could see that he was throwing starfish, abandoned on the sand by the tide, back into the sea.

When he was close enough I asked him why he was working so hard at this strange task. He said that the sun would dry the starfish and they would die. I said to him that I thought he was foolish. There were thousands of starfish on miles and miles of beach. One man alone could never make a difference. He smiled as he picked up the next starfish.

Hurling it far into the sea he said, "It makes a difference for this one."

I abandoned my writing and spent the morning throwing starfish.

           - Loren Eiseley

I hear you Bro.

I've been thinking about this and I must confess I don't hear...

a) The writer spent the morning throwing Starfish, only the morning. And then what, bogged off back to his writing? Or down the pub? Or whatever selfish pursuit he wanted to indulge himself in, never to throw Starfish again.

Why not throw these poor Starfish back for the whole day at least? Or make a regular daily habit of throwing Starfish every day? You know why he doesn't? Because the writer doesn't give a single fcuk about Starfish. It is pretend. After a couple of hours he can't be arsed anymore, it's too exhausting to carry on with this nonsense. Might as well just get on with his life instead. So if we are using this piece as advice for challenging minor social comments we can see that even this Starfish hero gives up pretty quickly because it really isn't worth the time and effort.

b) Every nature documentary I see people never intervene with nature, they always say you must let nature take it's course.

So yeah I don't hear. Imo the writer is simply satisfying himself at every turn.

How long he spent throwing Starfish isn't really the point though is it? The point is, up untill then he had strolled past Starfish like that business man strolled past an abandoned newborn in a Chinese gutter, and for much the same reason.
Then someone showed him that that wasnt the only option. He could act differently, if only for that instance. Then he could go to the pub.
Now here's the clever bit.
There were some kids on the beach building sandcastles who only interaction with a Starfish usualy was to chop its arms off with their spades, but after they saw the guy rescuing them they suddenley realised that the Starfish were living creatures who deserved every chance they could get.
So they spent the rest of the afternoon throwing Starfish back, and when their mam shouted them in for their teas they told her all about the fantastic Starfish and how they had saved them, and mam said 'That's nice dears', but that evening, when she took the dog out for a crap, she saw a Starfish washed in by the high tide, and fighting the feelings of repulsion she always felt when faced with this alien species she flicked it back into the surf with the toe of her flip flop.

Starfish saving eventually caught on, it became normal behavior for the visitors to the beach to be kind to the sea creatures, kind of second nature, no big thing, just people taking a few seconds out of their day for the benefit of something else.
Of course there will never be a happy ending to this story because Starfish will always wash up, but it's the best they can do, and thats always better than nothing. 

Are we now inundated with Stafish? Surely natural selection and all that. Not that I'm one for letting a living creature suffer or die but pretty sure for the amount of Starfish born every year a certain %age are expected not to live. If we start saving all the Starfish then what impact will it have on the Starfish habitat and all the other creatures that live there?

So does that argument hold true for people too, is it worth trying to save them all?

[typhoon13]

While wandering a deserted beach at dawn, stagnant in my work, I saw a man in the distance bending and throwing as he walked the endless stretch toward me. As he came near, I could see that he was throwing starfish, abandoned on the sand by the tide, back into the sea.

When he was close enough I asked him why he was working so hard at this strange task. He said that the sun would dry the starfish and they would die. I said to him that I thought he was foolish. There were thousands of starfish on miles and miles of beach. One man alone could never make a difference. He smiled as he picked up the next starfish.

Hurling it far into the sea he said, "It makes a difference for this one."

I abandoned my writing and spent the morning throwing starfish.

           - Loren Eiseley

I hear you Bro.

I've been thinking about this and I must confess I don't hear...

a) The writer spent the morning throwing Starfish, only the morning. And then what, bogged off back to his writing? Or down the pub? Or whatever selfish pursuit he wanted to indulge himself in, never to throw Starfish again.

Why not throw these poor Starfish back for the whole day at least? Or make a regular daily habit of throwing Starfish every day? You know why he doesn't? Because the writer doesn't give a single fcuk about Starfish. It is pretend. After a couple of hours he can't be arsed anymore, it's too exhausting to carry on with this nonsense. Might as well just get on with his life instead. So if we are using this piece as advice for challenging minor social comments we can see that even this Starfish hero gives up pretty quickly because it really isn't worth the time and effort.

b) Every nature documentary I see people never intervene with nature, they always say you must let nature take it's course.

So yeah I don't hear. Imo the writer is simply satisfying himself at every turn.

How long he spent throwing Starfish isn't really the point though is it? The point is, up untill then he had strolled past Starfish like that business man strolled past an abandoned newborn in a Chinese gutter, and for much the same reason.
Then someone showed him that that wasnt the only option. He could act differently, if only for that instance. Then he could go to the pub.
Now here's the clever bit.
There were some kids on the beach building sandcastles who only interaction with a Starfish usualy was to chop its arms off with their spades, but after they saw the guy rescuing them they suddenley realised that the Starfish were living creatures who deserved every chance they could get.
So they spent the rest of the afternoon throwing Starfish back, and when their mam shouted them in for their teas they told her all about the fantastic Starfish and how they had saved them, and mam said 'That's nice dears', but that evening, when she took the dog out for a crap, she saw a Starfish washed in by the high tide, and fighting the feelings of repulsion she always felt when faced with this alien species she flicked it back into the surf with the toe of her flip flop.

Starfish saving eventually caught on, it became normal behavior for the visitors to the beach to be kind to the sea creatures, kind of second nature, no big thing, just people taking a few seconds out of their day for the benefit of something else.
Of course there will never be a happy ending to this story because Starfish will always wash up, but it's the best they can do, and thats always better than nothing. 

Are we now inundated with Stafish? Surely natural selection and all that. Not that I'm one for letting a living creature suffer or die but pretty sure for the amount of Starfish born every year a certain %age are expected not to live. If we start saving all the Starfish then what impact will it have on the Starfish habitat and all the other creatures that live there?

So does that argument hold true for people too, is it worth trying to save them all?

You throw the starfish in the sea and within five minutes its washed back onto the shore..repeat..repeat..repeat

[Doobs]

Crown of Thorns starfish have been doing some significant damage to coral reefs, so you should be throwing those types further up the beach.  Maybe use a driver to make sure?

Suspect they are the oceanic equivalent of rich westerners. 

[tikay]

Crown of Thorns starfish have been doing some significant damage to coral reefs, so you should be throwing those types further up the beach.  Maybe use a driver to make sure?

Suspect they are the oceanic equivalent of rich westerners. 

New keyboard moment, very good.

MANTIS will very much approve, Redsgirl not so much.

PS - For the benefit of Redsgirl (female, see?) a driver is a big up yours golf bat.

[Rod Paradise]

Crown of Thorns starfish have been doing some significant damage to coral reefs, so you should be throwing those types further up the beach.  Maybe use a driver to make sure?

Suspect they are the oceanic equivalent of rich westerners. 

Or instead stop taking triton shells out of the pacific, letting them eat the crown of thorns...

Its amazing how many animal 'plagues come down to us.

[Redsgirl]

How are we supposed to have a relationship on your father's diary if this is how long you take to reply?

 I'm sure a man of your calibre is used to the ladies hanging on his every word, but I'm afraid my attentions are also very much in demand, so much so that I decided a while back that I was probably better off spending my small amount of recreational time on something with less bitching and drama and more emotional depth than a poker forum, like a T.O.W.I.E box set or something.

But I recently started having the odd peek again, mostly to read the politics thread during Brexit and I now I'm having a nose through every couple of days but not really taking part except for the odd congratulations and such.
Then before I knew it, chords were struck and nerves were hit and I waded in in spite of myself. Now I'm checking up and it's like I've got a cross line with the Krankies.

Does anyone know what we are actually discussing here? Including me? I'm not even sure who is taking the mick or not, except for Tikay of course, but even a women who would rescue Starfish can recognise when someone is a complete waste of energy....

[tikay]

Marv.

[MANTIS01]

How are we supposed to have a relationship on your father's diary if this is how long you take to reply?

 I'm sure a man of your calibre is used to the ladies hanging on his every word, but I'm afraid my attentions are also very much in demand, so much so that I decided a while back that I was probably better off spending my small amount of recreational time on something with less bitching and drama and more emotional depth than a poker forum, like a T.O.W.I.E box set or something.

But I recently started having the odd peek again, mostly to read the politics thread during Brexit and I now I'm having a nose through every couple of days but not really taking part except for the odd congratulations and such.
Then before I knew it, chords were struck and nerves were hit and I waded in in spite of myself. Now I'm checking up and it's like I've got a cross line with the Krankies.

Does anyone know what we are actually discussing here? Including me? I'm not even sure who is taking the mick or not, except for Tikay of course, but even a women who would rescue Starfish can recognise when someone is a complete waste of energy....

Apologies for my tardy response and whilst I can confirm the ladies used to hang on my every word it does appear that as I get older the ladies and indeed the hanging are both in decline.

I too feel the cross line vibe and cannot decipher if your post is flirting with me and taking the piss out of Tikay at the same time. If that's correct I agree with everything.

If your time is limited then perhaps we can accept that I considered the stuff you raised in your original reply before I posted in the first place?

But in all seriousness the original request was advice about a minor social faux pas and thus a 'starfish metaphor' where creatures suffer and die...allowing us to seamlessly arrive at babies lying in the gutter...deserves to be challenged, so I did. That said I do believe the challenge stimulated interesting debate about smashing Starfish with golf clubs, kicking them into the see with flip flops and cutting their arms off with spades. Unfortunately all very entertaining. I'm not really spiritual but I do wonder why God keeps washing these creatures up on the beach in the first place? But what I really wonder is if instead of starfish the stricken creatures were big fat Cromer crabs or juicy lobsters whether our charitable friends would act in similar fashion?

[Redsgirl]

How are we supposed to have a relationship on your father's diary if this is how long you take to reply?

 I'm sure a man of your calibre is used to the ladies hanging on his every word, but I'm afraid my attentions are also very much in demand, so much so that I decided a while back that I was probably better off spending my small amount of recreational time on something with less bitching and drama and more emotional depth than a poker forum, like a T.O.W.I.E box set or something.

But I recently started having the odd peek again, mostly to read the politics thread during Brexit and I now I'm having a nose through every couple of days but not really taking part except for the odd congratulations and such.
Then before I knew it, chords were struck and nerves were hit and I waded in in spite of myself. Now I'm checking up and it's like I've got a cross line with the Krankies.

Does anyone know what we are actually discussing here? Including me? I'm not even sure who is taking the mick or not, except for Tikay of course, but even a women who would rescue Starfish can recognise when someone is a complete waste of energy....

Apologies for my tardy response and whilst I can confirm the ladies used to hang on my every word it does appear that as I get older the ladies and indeed the hanging are both in decline.

I too feel the cross line vibe and cannot decipher if your post is flirting with me and taking the piss out of Tikay at the same time. If that's correct I agree with everything.

If your time is limited then perhaps we can accept that I considered the stuff you raised in your original reply before I posted in the first place?

But in all seriousness the original request was advice about a minor social faux pas and thus a 'starfish metaphor' where creatures suffer and die...allowing us to seamlessly arrive at babies lying in the gutter...deserves to be challenged, so I did. That said I do believe the challenge stimulated interesting debate about smashing Starfish with golf clubs, kicking them into the see with flip flops and cutting their arms off with spades. Unfortunately all very entertaining. I'm not really spiritual but I do wonder why God keeps washing these creatures up on the beach in the first place? But what I really wonder is if instead of starfish the stricken creatures were big fat Cromer crabs or juicy lobsters whether our charitable friends would act in similar fashion?

Haha! I must agree things escalated quickly, I'm afraid I do tend to resort to the dramatic but I shall try to explain what I was getting at.
Old Dog asks a question, which IMO was a pointless exercise as very few people will have been in anything like the described situation and therefore can't really give an appropriate answer.
When I say the described situation, I don't mean racism in general as there are always going to be bigots and haters and people who go out of there way to make life miserable for their fellow humans, I mean you are talking to someone in a normal friendly day to day setting all fine and dandy, that person may be a burger van lady or a school teacher in front of your children or your hair dresser in a packed salon and everything is just marvellous, and then that person says something like, 'We used to have Sunday lunch in that pub but then the pikeys from the site started using it so we don't go in anymore' or 'Our dog went missing and someone said they saw a Transit van in the area, I know some gyppo scum has nicked it' or worse, sometimes a lot worse.
Now to add a little extra insult no-one else present bats an eyelid at these statements. No sharps intakes of breath, no awkward 'that's not very P.C.' grimaces, nothing. In fact they start agreeing, and adding their own two penneth.

So this is a scenario, the 'minor social faux pas'.
Why say anything? I mean, my ethnicity isn't given away by the amount of melanin in my skin, or my accent, or the clothing I may choose/be forced to wear so why embarrass myself or the person I'm speaking to by announcing it?
Well for a start, I'm already embarrassed. My stomach has just dropped like a stone, I'm blushing and my heart is beating like a trip hammer. I can't help this reaction no matter how much I would like to.
And I am angry. I'm angry because they have made me feel ashamed, I'm angry because they think people like me are lower than shite, even though they probably never met any people like me, I'm angry because most of the things they are saying aren't true but that won't stop them teaching their prejudices to their children who will in turn use them to judge my children, I'm angry because good, good people I know have to face this outrage year in year out through no fault of their own but mostly I'm angry cos it's so bloody unfair, they are inviting me in their homes, talking to me, laughing with me, they are complimenting me on my well behaved kids and hurting me in the same breath. It's excruciating everytime, and it happens to me way too often.


So, I wait for them to finish, I look them dead in the eye and I say 'I'm a Gypsy'
Sometimes I feel sorry when they start to stutter and try to back peddle, even though I haven't done anything to feel sorry for.  I won't be made to feel bad for highlighting someones casual racism, but I do accept their apologies and promises to not to 'tar everyone with the brush' in future.
It doesn't change the event for either of us but maybe they will think twice about what they say next time, or even better when someone else is spewing the usual hate they will say 'I know some Gypsies, and they are actually quite nice'

I might only change one persons opinion in a thousand, but that is my Starfish, and I'll keep throwing it back.

[Karabiner]

How are we supposed to have a relationship on your father's diary if this is how long you take to reply?

 I'm sure a man of your calibre is used to the ladies hanging on his every word, but I'm afraid my attentions are also very much in demand, so much so that I decided a while back that I was probably better off spending my small amount of recreational time on something with less bitching and drama and more emotional depth than a poker forum, like a T.O.W.I.E box set or something.

But I recently started having the odd peek again, mostly to read the politics thread during Brexit and I now I'm having a nose through every couple of days but not really taking part except for the odd congratulations and such.
Then before I knew it, chords were struck and nerves were hit and I waded in in spite of myself. Now I'm checking up and it's like I've got a cross line with the Krankies.

Does anyone know what we are actually discussing here? Including me? I'm not even sure who is taking the mick or not, except for Tikay of course, but even a women who would rescue Starfish can recognise when someone is a complete waste of energy....

Apologies for my tardy response and whilst I can confirm the ladies used to hang on my every word it does appear that as I get older the ladies and indeed the hanging are both in decline.

I too feel the cross line vibe and cannot decipher if your post is flirting with me and taking the piss out of Tikay at the same time. If that's correct I agree with everything.

If your time is limited then perhaps we can accept that I considered the stuff you raised in your original reply before I posted in the first place?

But in all seriousness the original request was advice about a minor social faux pas and thus a 'starfish metaphor' where creatures suffer and die...allowing us to seamlessly arrive at babies lying in the gutter...deserves to be challenged, so I did. That said I do believe the challenge stimulated interesting debate about smashing Starfish with golf clubs, kicking them into the see with flip flops and cutting their arms off with spades. Unfortunately all very entertaining. I'm not really spiritual but I do wonder why God keeps washing these creatures up on the beach in the first place? But what I really wonder is if instead of starfish the stricken creatures were big fat Cromer crabs or juicy lobsters whether our charitable friends would act in similar fashion?

Haha! I must agree things escalated quickly, I'm afraid I do tend to resort to the dramatic but I shall try to explain what I was getting at.
Old Dog asks a question, which IMO was a pointless exercise as very few people will have been in anything like the described situation and therefore can't really give an appropriate answer.
When I say the described situation, I don't mean racism in general as there are always going to be bigots and haters and people who go out of there way to make life miserable for their fellow humans, I mean you are talking to someone in a normal friendly day to day setting all fine and dandy, that person may be a burger van lady or a school teacher in front of your children or your hair dresser in a packed salon and everything is just marvellous, and then that person says something like, 'We used to have Sunday lunch in that pub but then the pikeys from the site started using it so we don't go in anymore' or 'Our dog went missing and someone said they saw a Transit van in the area, I know some gyppo scum has nicked it' or worse, sometimes a lot worse.
Now to add a little extra insult no-one else present bats an eyelid at these statements. No sharps intakes of breath, no awkward 'that's not very P.C.' grimaces, nothing. In fact they start agreeing, and adding their own two penneth.

So this is a scenario, the 'minor social faux pas'.
Why say anything? I mean, my ethnicity isn't given away by the amount of melanin in my skin, or my accent, or the clothing I may choose/be forced to wear so why embarrass myself or the person I'm speaking to by announcing it?
Well for a start, I'm already embarrassed. My stomach has just dropped like a stone, I'm blushing and my heart is beating like a trip hammer. I can't help this reaction no matter how much I would like to.
And I am angry. I'm angry because they have made me feel ashamed, I'm angry because they think people like me are lower than shite, even though they probably never met any people like me, I'm angry because most of the things they are saying aren't true but that won't stop them teaching their prejudices to their children who will in turn use them to judge my children, I'm angry because good, good people I know have to face this outrage year in year out through no fault of their own but mostly I'm angry cos it's so bloody unfair, they are inviting me in their homes, talking to me, laughing with me, they are complimenting me on my well behaved kids and hurting me in the same breath. It's excruciating everytime, and it happens to me way too often.


So, I wait for them to finish, I look them dead in the eye and I say 'I'm a Gypsy'
Sometimes I feel sorry when they start to stutter and try to back peddle, even though I haven't done anything to feel sorry for.  I won't be made to feel bad for highlighting someones casual racism, but I do accept their apologies and promises to not to 'tar everyone with the brush' in future.
It doesn't change the event for either of us but maybe they will think twice about what they say next time, or even better when someone else is spewing the usual hate they will say 'I know some Gypsies, and they are actually quite nice'

I might only change one persons opinion in a thousand, but that is my Starfish, and I'll keep throwing it back.

That is a cracking good post young lady and I bet your dad is even prouder of you than usual this evening having read that.

[tikay]

Absolutely agree with Uncle Ralph, that's some great post.

Old Dog (rather like that) will have his chest in puffed out mode tonight.

[RED-DOG]

It's kind of difficult for me to be more proud of her, but I managed it tonight. 

[MANTIS01]

How are we supposed to have a relationship on your father's diary if this is how long you take to reply?

 I'm sure a man of your calibre is used to the ladies hanging on his every word, but I'm afraid my attentions are also very much in demand, so much so that I decided a while back that I was probably better off spending my small amount of recreational time on something with less bitching and drama and more emotional depth than a poker forum, like a T.O.W.I.E box set or something.

But I recently started having the odd peek again, mostly to read the politics thread during Brexit and I now I'm having a nose through every couple of days but not really taking part except for the odd congratulations and such.
Then before I knew it, chords were struck and nerves were hit and I waded in in spite of myself. Now I'm checking up and it's like I've got a cross line with the Krankies.

Does anyone know what we are actually discussing here? Including me? I'm not even sure who is taking the mick or not, except for Tikay of course, but even a women who would rescue Starfish can recognise when someone is a complete waste of energy....

Apologies for my tardy response and whilst I can confirm the ladies used to hang on my every word it does appear that as I get older the ladies and indeed the hanging are both in decline.

I too feel the cross line vibe and cannot decipher if your post is flirting with me and taking the piss out of Tikay at the same time. If that's correct I agree with everything.

If your time is limited then perhaps we can accept that I considered the stuff you raised in your original reply before I posted in the first place?

But in all seriousness the original request was advice about a minor social faux pas and thus a 'starfish metaphor' where creatures suffer and die...allowing us to seamlessly arrive at babies lying in the gutter...deserves to be challenged, so I did. That said I do believe the challenge stimulated interesting debate about smashing Starfish with golf clubs, kicking them into the see with flip flops and cutting their arms off with spades. Unfortunately all very entertaining. I'm not really spiritual but I do wonder why God keeps washing these creatures up on the beach in the first place? But what I really wonder is if instead of starfish the stricken creatures were big fat Cromer crabs or juicy lobsters whether our charitable friends would act in similar fashion?

Haha! I must agree things escalated quickly, I'm afraid I do tend to resort to the dramatic but I shall try to explain what I was getting at.
Old Dog asks a question, which IMO was a pointless exercise as very few people will have been in anything like the described situation and therefore can't really give an appropriate answer.
When I say the described situation, I don't mean racism in general as there are always going to be bigots and haters and people who go out of there way to make life miserable for their fellow humans, I mean you are talking to someone in a normal friendly day to day setting all fine and dandy, that person may be a burger van lady or a school teacher in front of your children or your hair dresser in a packed salon and everything is just marvellous, and then that person says something like, 'We used to have Sunday lunch in that pub but then the pikeys from the site started using it so we don't go in anymore' or 'Our dog went missing and someone said they saw a Transit van in the area, I know some gyppo scum has nicked it' or worse, sometimes a lot worse.
Now to add a little extra insult no-one else present bats an eyelid at these statements. No sharps intakes of breath, no awkward 'that's not very P.C.' grimaces, nothing. In fact they start agreeing, and adding their own two penneth.

So this is a scenario, the 'minor social faux pas'.
Why say anything? I mean, my ethnicity isn't given away by the amount of melanin in my skin, or my accent, or the clothing I may choose/be forced to wear so why embarrass myself or the person I'm speaking to by announcing it?
Well for a start, I'm already embarrassed. My stomach has just dropped like a stone, I'm blushing and my heart is beating like a trip hammer. I can't help this reaction no matter how much I would like to.
And I am angry. I'm angry because they have made me feel ashamed, I'm angry because they think people like me are lower than shite, even though they probably never met any people like me, I'm angry because most of the things they are saying aren't true but that won't stop them teaching their prejudices to their children who will in turn use them to judge my children, I'm angry because good, good people I know have to face this outrage year in year out through no fault of their own but mostly I'm angry cos it's so bloody unfair, they are inviting me in their homes, talking to me, laughing with me, they are complimenting me on my well behaved kids and hurting me in the same breath. It's excruciating everytime, and it happens to me way too often.


So, I wait for them to finish, I look them dead in the eye and I say 'I'm a Gypsy'
Sometimes I feel sorry when they start to stutter and try to back peddle, even though I haven't done anything to feel sorry for.  I won't be made to feel bad for highlighting someones casual racism, but I do accept their apologies and promises to not to 'tar everyone with the brush' in future.
It doesn't change the event for either of us but maybe they will think twice about what they say next time, or even better when someone else is spewing the usual hate they will say 'I know some Gypsies, and they are actually quite nice'

I might only change one persons opinion in a thousand, but that is my Starfish, and I'll keep throwing it back.

And there we go, from having a peep at the forum every couple of days, not really contributing....to several comprehensive, insightful interactions within a day. Maybe I do still have a stimulating effect on women.

Anyhows please allow me to explain what I was getting at.

Example 1: I'm at the barbers, a normal everyday setting all fine and dandy. The barber is cutting my hair and indulging in friendly conversation with me and the other waiting gents. The chatter turns to the football match which is being shown on sky later that day and he says "I hope my wife lets me watch the match". The response from one of the other fellas is "Tell her to get in the kitchen where she belongs and cook the dinner". A few of them laugh "Yeah yeah explain to her that offside is when she isn't cleaning the oven" Hahaha. Personally I find these proper stupid remarks, they are just casual throw away comments but it shows a deeper disrespect of women who are beautiful and intelligent creatures, undoubtedly the equals of men. Should I start getting angry and start educating everybody in the shop?

Example 2: I'm at the local curry house, a normal everyday setting, all fine and dandy. There are a group of lads who are a bit drunk. They call the waiter over in a mock Indian accent "More poppadums thankyou please" like this guy isn't their equal and everybody laughs. Should I start getting angry and start educating everybody in the restaurant. I mean if I don't these views could be copied by others.

I hope you appreciate I could give you a thousand examples.

Now when I read your words about how much negative emotion these everyday encounters stimulate in you, being angry and ashamed, I remain confident in my original advice that we should not allow this ignorance to destabilise us to such a degree. If we did every day would be so exhausting, such a battle....because folk say stupid stuff every day of the week without even realising why. The vast majority is superficial ignorance and it really isn't deep-rooted malice. I must admit I do find it interesting when people only get offended by ignorance that is specific to their own race or religion, the same emotion isn't present when confronted by other forms of everyday ignorance. Surely if we're going to throw starfish we can't walk down the beach picking and choosing a select few starfish to throw back, only these starfish matter, we walk on by the vast majority of stricken starfish because they don't apply. Because then our words about the poor starfish aren't very credible.

My own view is have the confidence to take such nonsense in your stride, hold your head high and don't let people control you in the negative. Who are these trivial individuals to make you feel this way, to have such sway over your emotions? Perhaps look around the hairdressers and notice the lady who knowingly rolls her eyes and is on your wavelength. Perhaps don't use that hairdresser again. But whatever, don't let it ruin your day, control you. You may only change one in a thousand but I say that is a terrible ROI for all your efforts. It's like throwing a thousand starfish and only one reaching the ocean. If that's what you want to do then cool but personally I would prefer to leave the starfish alone and go down the pub with friends. I mean for all the negative emotion writing that post conjured in your mind it made your dad proud and that's the emotion that would matter to me. Everything else is trivial and pointless, a waste of time, just like throwing starfish back into the sea, only for them to be washed up again tomorrow.

[kukushkin88]

How are we supposed to have a relationship on your father's diary if this is how long you take to reply?

 I'm sure a man of your calibre is used to the ladies hanging on his every word, but I'm afraid my attentions are also very much in demand, so much so that I decided a while back that I was probably better off spending my small amount of recreational time on something with less bitching and drama and more emotional depth than a poker forum, like a T.O.W.I.E box set or something.

But I recently started having the odd peek again, mostly to read the politics thread during Brexit and I now I'm having a nose through every couple of days but not really taking part except for the odd congratulations and such.
Then before I knew it, chords were struck and nerves were hit and I waded in in spite of myself. Now I'm checking up and it's like I've got a cross line with the Krankies.

Does anyone know what we are actually discussing here? Including me? I'm not even sure who is taking the mick or not, except for Tikay of course, but even a women who would rescue Starfish can recognise when someone is a complete waste of energy....

Apologies for my tardy response and whilst I can confirm the ladies used to hang on my every word it does appear that as I get older the ladies and indeed the hanging are both in decline.

I too feel the cross line vibe and cannot decipher if your post is flirting with me and taking the piss out of Tikay at the same time. If that's correct I agree with everything.

If your time is limited then perhaps we can accept that I considered the stuff you raised in your original reply before I posted in the first place?

But in all seriousness the original request was advice about a minor social faux pas and thus a 'starfish metaphor' where creatures suffer and die...allowing us to seamlessly arrive at babies lying in the gutter...deserves to be challenged, so I did. That said I do believe the challenge stimulated interesting debate about smashing Starfish with golf clubs, kicking them into the see with flip flops and cutting their arms off with spades. Unfortunately all very entertaining. I'm not really spiritual but I do wonder why God keeps washing these creatures up on the beach in the first place? But what I really wonder is if instead of starfish the stricken creatures were big fat Cromer crabs or juicy lobsters whether our charitable friends would act in similar fashion?

Haha! I must agree things escalated quickly, I'm afraid I do tend to resort to the dramatic but I shall try to explain what I was getting at.
Old Dog asks a question, which IMO was a pointless exercise as very few people will have been in anything like the described situation and therefore can't really give an appropriate answer.
When I say the described situation, I don't mean racism in general as there are always going to be bigots and haters and people who go out of there way to make life miserable for their fellow humans, I mean you are talking to someone in a normal friendly day to day setting all fine and dandy, that person may be a burger van lady or a school teacher in front of your children or your hair dresser in a packed salon and everything is just marvellous, and then that person says something like, 'We used to have Sunday lunch in that pub but then the pikeys from the site started using it so we don't go in anymore' or 'Our dog went missing and someone said they saw a Transit van in the area, I know some gyppo scum has nicked it' or worse, sometimes a lot worse.
Now to add a little extra insult no-one else present bats an eyelid at these statements. No sharps intakes of breath, no awkward 'that's not very P.C.' grimaces, nothing. In fact they start agreeing, and adding their own two penneth.

So this is a scenario, the 'minor social faux pas'.
Why say anything? I mean, my ethnicity isn't given away by the amount of melanin in my skin, or my accent, or the clothing I may choose/be forced to wear so why embarrass myself or the person I'm speaking to by announcing it?
Well for a start, I'm already embarrassed. My stomach has just dropped like a stone, I'm blushing and my heart is beating like a trip hammer. I can't help this reaction no matter how much I would like to.
And I am angry. I'm angry because they have made me feel ashamed, I'm angry because they think people like me are lower than shite, even though they probably never met any people like me, I'm angry because most of the things they are saying aren't true but that won't stop them teaching their prejudices to their children who will in turn use them to judge my children, I'm angry because good, good people I know have to face this outrage year in year out through no fault of their own but mostly I'm angry cos it's so bloody unfair, they are inviting me in their homes, talking to me, laughing with me, they are complimenting me on my well behaved kids and hurting me in the same breath. It's excruciating everytime, and it happens to me way too often.


So, I wait for them to finish, I look them dead in the eye and I say 'I'm a Gypsy'
Sometimes I feel sorry when they start to stutter and try to back peddle, even though I haven't done anything to feel sorry for.  I won't be made to feel bad for highlighting someones casual racism, but I do accept their apologies and promises to not to 'tar everyone with the brush' in future.
It doesn't change the event for either of us but maybe they will think twice about what they say next time, or even better when someone else is spewing the usual hate they will say 'I know some Gypsies, and they are actually quite nice'

I might only change one persons opinion in a thousand, but that is my Starfish, and I'll keep throwing it back.

And there we go, from having a peep at the forum every couple of days, not really contributing....to several comprehensive, insightful interactions within a day. Maybe I do still have a stimulating effect on women.

Anyhows please allow me to explain what I was getting at.

Example 1: I'm at the barbers, a normal everyday setting all fine and dandy. The barber is cutting my hair and indulging in friendly conversation with me and the other waiting gents. The chatter turns to the football match which is being shown on sky later that day and he says "I hope my wife lets me watch the match". The response from one of the other fellas is "Tell her to get in the kitchen where she belongs and cook the dinner". A few of them laugh "Yeah yeah explain to her that offside is when she isn't cleaning the oven" Hahaha. Personally I find these proper stupid remarks, they are just casual throw away comments but it shows a deeper disrespect of women who are beautiful and intelligent creatures, undoubtedly the equals of men. Should I start getting angry and start educating everybody in the shop?

Example 2: I'm at the local curry house, a normal everyday setting, all fine and dandy. There are a group of lads who are a bit drunk. They call the waiter over in a mock Indian accent "More poppadums thankyou please" like this guy isn't their equal and everybody laughs. Should I start getting angry and start educating everybody in the restaurant. I mean if I don't these views could be copied by others.

I hope you appreciate I could give you a thousand examples.

Now when I read your words about how much negative emotion these everyday encounters stimulate in you, being angry and ashamed, I remain confident in my original advice that we should not allow this ignorance to destabilise us to such a degree. If we did every day would be so exhausting, such a battle....because folk say stupid stuff every day of the week without even realising why. The vast majority is superficial ignorance and it really isn't deep-rooted malice. I must admit I do find it interesting when people only get offended by ignorance that is specific to their own race or religion, the same emotion isn't present when confronted by other forms of everyday ignorance. Surely if we're going to throw starfish we can't walk down the beach picking and choosing a select few starfish to throw back, only these starfish matter, we walk on by the vast majority of stricken starfish because they don't apply. Because then our words about the poor starfish aren't very credible.

My own view is have the confidence to take such nonsense in your stride, hold your head high and don't let people control you in the negative. Who are these trivial individuals to make you feel this way, to have such sway over your emotions? Perhaps look around the hairdressers and notice the lady who knowingly rolls her eyes and is on your wavelength. Perhaps don't use that hairdresser again. But whatever, don't let it ruin your day, control you. You may only change one in a thousand but I say that is a terrible ROI for all your efforts. It's like throwing a thousand starfish and only one reaching the ocean. If that's what you want to do then cool but personally I would prefer to leave the starfish alone and go down the pub with friends. I mean for all the negative emotion writing that post conjured in your mind it made your dad proud and that's the emotion that would matter to me. Everything else is trivial and pointless, a waste of time, just like throwing starfish back into the sea, only for them to be washed up again tomorrow.

So we shouldn't confront racism because we can't make a difference? A level of tolerance? If so how much tolerance? Where do we draw the line? It's a dangerous path to go down.

Great post from Redsgirl, keep standing up for yourself and your people. There's a massive, regrettably silent majority who are with you all the way.