Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[Jon MW]

Time and space are facets of the same thing. If there was negative time before the big bang then surely there must have been negative space as well - tell me about negative space and what that was like.

 "You tell me about anything from before the Big Bang." is essentially the question you're asking. Even Hawking accepts that he doesn't have an answer to that one.

Why are time and space facets of the same thing (obv the Big Bang theory essentially says that "time is light and therefore time started at the Big Bang". That's when light started after all but that only holds when you say "Time and Light are the same thing" )?

The implication that there was negative time does not at all mean there had to have been negative space. I am not disputing the big bang theory as the start of the universe (if I was the negative space argument might be somewhat relevant) I am saying that time can have existed before the big bang.
Are you saying that when the universe ends (which it inevitably will) "Time as a concept" will end because the lights go out? Or could there be "X amount of time after the end of the universe"?

I will get back on to this one later, have people coming over at 7 and apparently the house needs to be in order.

Add on to this that; If we accept the Big Bang theory and, essentially, Hawking's theory that the universe is living on a curve (Expanding now but will contract again at some stage) then it stands to reason that when the universe keeps contracting the negative energy will build up again, as it has in the past, and then will explode again in a new Big Bang.

This universe might not be the first universe (although it is of course very unlikely that man will ever figure out whether that's true or not, it does stand to reason if you follow Hawking's ideas through). and if this isn't the first one...Time must have existed before and therefore time and light (again different from space as there has always been space however little of it there is, if you follow this through) are actually not linked.

Effectively for everything in the universe, space and time started with the big bang.   If it wasn't the first big bang it doesn't matter (pun intended), as if everything (time, space, matter) was condensed into a singularity then it has no memory of any time before, much like a cassette tape that has been erased.

What is this negative energy you talk about oh bald one?

I think I dispute (Or don't understand) the fact that time would be condensed into a singularity along with light and matter. Why could the singularity not exist for a period of time?

What is time?

Define it.

That would provide a good start.

[boldie]

Time and space are facets of the same thing. If there was negative time before the big bang then surely there must have been negative space as well - tell me about negative space and what that was like.

 "You tell me about anything from before the Big Bang." is essentially the question you're asking. Even Hawking accepts that he doesn't have an answer to that one.

Why are time and space facets of the same thing (obv the Big Bang theory essentially says that "time is light and therefore time started at the Big Bang". That's when light started after all but that only holds when you say "Time and Light are the same thing" )?

The implication that there was negative time does not at all mean there had to have been negative space. I am not disputing the big bang theory as the start of the universe (if I was the negative space argument might be somewhat relevant) I am saying that time can have existed before the big bang.
Are you saying that when the universe ends (which it inevitably will) "Time as a concept" will end because the lights go out? Or could there be "X amount of time after the end of the universe"?

I will get back on to this one later, have people coming over at 7 and apparently the house needs to be in order.

Add on to this that; If we accept the Big Bang theory and, essentially, Hawking's theory that the universe is living on a curve (Expanding now but will contract again at some stage) then it stands to reason that when the universe keeps contracting the negative energy will build up again, as it has in the past, and then will explode again in a new Big Bang.

This universe might not be the first universe (although it is of course very unlikely that man will ever figure out whether that's true or not, it does stand to reason if you follow Hawking's ideas through). and if this isn't the first one...Time must have existed before and therefore time and light (again different from space as there has always been space however little of it there is, if you follow this through) are actually not linked.

Effectively for everything in the universe, space and time started with the big bang.   If it wasn't the first big bang it doesn't matter (pun intended), as if everything (time, space, matter) was condensed into a singularity then it has no memory of any time before, much like a cassette tape that has been erased.

What is this negative energy you talk about oh bald one?

I think I dispute (Or don't understand) the fact that time would be condensed into a singularity along with light and matter. Why could the singularity not exist for a period of time?

That is because Kin, and AndrewT and Gatso, state that Space and time and are linked. "Without space there can be no time." What their statement should actually be (IMO) is that light and time are linked...a statement which I indeed dispute. In their view; From the moment the singularity exists light and time exists. they argue that there is nothing before that point and therefore there was no time. I say there had to have been another universe before that point...and therefore time existed before the Big Bang.

edit; FML..this is confusing me now. What I state is that Time is obv not linked to light and that therefore there can be a "before the big bang" (esp as there obv had to have been something before the big bang. (IMO obv and Hawking's curved expansion lifespan of the universe seems to back this up))

[RED-DOG]

Time and space are facets of the same thing. If there was negative time before the big bang then surely there must have been negative space as well - tell me about negative space and what that was like.

 "You tell me about anything from before the Big Bang." is essentially the question you're asking. Even Hawking accepts that he doesn't have an answer to that one.

Why are time and space facets of the same thing (obv the Big Bang theory essentially says that "time is light and therefore time started at the Big Bang". That's when light started after all but that only holds when you say "Time and Light are the same thing" )?

The implication that there was negative time does not at all mean there had to have been negative space. I am not disputing the big bang theory as the start of the universe (if I was the negative space argument might be somewhat relevant) I am saying that time can have existed before the big bang.
Are you saying that when the universe ends (which it inevitably will) "Time as a concept" will end because the lights go out? Or could there be "X amount of time after the end of the universe"?

I will get back on to this one later, have people coming over at 7 and apparently the house needs to be in order.

Add on to this that; If we accept the Big Bang theory and, essentially, Hawking's theory that the universe is living on a curve (Expanding now but will contract again at some stage) then it stands to reason that when the universe keeps contracting the negative energy will build up again, as it has in the past, and then will explode again in a new Big Bang.

This universe might not be the first universe (although it is of course very unlikely that man will ever figure out whether that's true or not, it does stand to reason if you follow Hawking's ideas through). and if this isn't the first one...Time must have existed before and therefore time and light (again different from space as there has always been space however little of it there is, if you follow this through) are actually not linked.

Effectively for everything in the universe, space and time started with the big bang.   If it wasn't the first big bang it doesn't matter (pun intended), as if everything (time, space, matter) was condensed into a singularity then it has no memory of any time before, much like a cassette tape that has been erased.

What is this negative energy you talk about oh bald one?

I think I dispute (Or don't understand) the fact that time would be condensed into a singularity along with light and matter. Why could the singularity not exist for a period of time?

What is time?

Define it.

That would provide a good start.

Could we start by saying it's a way of dscribing the state of the matter that goes to make up everything in the universe, whether it be on the inside or the outside of a singularity?

Otherwise, how can we say "Before the big bang"?

[Ironside]

i didnt relalise how thick you guys are would take me too longto explain so i will give it a miss

[Karabiner]

How can one person dispute what somebody should have said rather than what they actually said ?

[RED-DOG]

How can one person dispute what somebody should have said rather than what they actually said ?

I don't agree with what I think you're trying to say.

[boldie]

How can one person dispute what somebody should have said rather than what they actually said ?

lol..very easily. I dispute their original statement (still to see a reply to that one) and state that their argument only holds when they change it to the "Space and light" thing. Which IMO is incorrect as well.

Please continue to share your thoughts and ideas about the whole Space and time discussion though..they really are quite enlightening and are definitely backing either point of view up.

[Karabiner]

It's starting to sound like a Harry Enfield sketch with the two self-righteous brothers in the pub.

But if Gatso had said that I'd say "NOOOOOOOOOOOO GATSO NOT ROUND MY MANOR YOU DON'T"

[gatso]

That is because Kin, and AndrewT and Gatso, state that Space and time and are linked. "Without space there can be no time." What their statement should actually be (IMO) is that light and time are linked...a statement which I indeed dispute. In their view; From the moment the singularity exists light and time exists. they argue that there is nothing before that point and therefore there was no time. I say there had to have been another universe before that point...and therefore time existed before the Big Bang.

edit; FML..this is confusing me now. What I state is that Time is obv not linked to light and that therefore there can be a "before the big bang" (esp as there obv had to have been something before the big bang. (IMO obv and Hawking's curved expansion lifespan of the universe seems to back this up))

what? why should my statement involve light? It has nothing to do with my argument. but if you wish to make a statement that I don't agree with and then dispute it then that's fine by me

[boldie]

OK, please clarify this one then?

"in reality if there is no space then there is no time, they are not seperable so time could not exist 'before' the big bang"

Why is there no time when there is no space?

[bolt pp]

OK, please clarify this one then?

"in reality if there is no space then there is no time, they are not seperable so time could not exist 'before' the big bang"

Why is there no time when there is no space?

because where you gonna put your watch?

[Laxie]

OK, please clarify this one then?

"in reality if there is no space then there is no time, they are not seperable so time could not exist 'before' the big bang"

Why is there no time when there is no space?

because where you gonna put your watch?

Cleaning lunch off monitor.  Cheers!   

[gatso]

because spacetime is reliant on both space and time. if you remove space then spacetime, by definition, cannot exist

when I refer to time in the line you quote I'm referring to the component of spacetime, not to the linear perception of time which I assume you are talking about

[cia260895]

OK, please clarify this one then?

"in reality if there is no space then there is no time, they are not seperable so time could not exist 'before' the big bang"

Why is there no time when there is no space?

so what happened 10mins before the big bang?

[boldie]

OK, please clarify this one then?

"in reality if there is no space then there is no time, they are not seperable so time could not exist 'before' the big bang"

Why is there no time when there is no space?

so what happened 10mins before the big bang?

the old universe was shrinking