Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[RED-DOG]

I know for instance, that if I were filling out a housing form, or registering with the dentist, that I wouldn't tick the box that said "Gypsy".  

The rest of your reply made so much sense that this stood out - why not?

You don't think that some people will treat you with caution or suspicion, even open hostility when they know you're a Gypsy?

On the other hand, do you think that the same people will re-assess their opinions after having dealt with you if you never tell them you are a Gypsy?

Some do, (but it takes quite a while) and some don't.

So with the ones that do, you reap the benefits....   eventually. With the ones who don't, you get the backlash instantly.

In most situations, the risk is too big to take.

A surprising number of those that do re-assess decide that you're OK, but probably not a real Gypsy

[boldie]

Fair enough really, you can't be a martyr for the cause every time. Must be a bastard though.

[MANTIS01]

I know for instance, that if I were filling out a housing form, or registering with the dentist, that I wouldn't tick the box that said "Gypsy".   

The rest of your reply made so much sense that this stood out - why not?

You don't think that some people will treat you with caution or suspicion, even open hostility when they know you're a Gypsy?

On the other hand, do you think that the same people will re-assess their opinions after having dealt with you if you never tell them you are a Gypsy?

Some do, (but it takes quite a while) and some don't.

So with the ones that do, you reap the benefits....   eventually. With the ones who don't, you get the backlash instantly.

In most situations, the risk is too big to take.

A surprising number of those that do re-assess decide that you're OK, but probably not a real Gypsy

Doesn't anticipating hostility from people who deal with Gypsies exhibit the same level of discriminatory mindset as people anticipating trouble when dealing with Gypsies? In both cases you're not allowing individuals to prove themselves independent from the stereotype.

[Laxie]

It's a tricky one for sure.  Yer damned if ya do and damned if ya don't.

[Dingdell]

I know for instance, that if I were filling out a housing form, or registering with the dentist, that I wouldn't tick the box that said "Gypsy".  

The rest of your reply made so much sense that this stood out - why not?

You don't think that some people will treat you with caution or suspicion, even open hostility when they know you're a Gypsy?

On the other hand, do you think that the same people will re-assess their opinions after having dealt with you if you never tell them you are a Gypsy?

Some do, (but it takes quite a while) and some don't.

So with the ones that do, you reap the benefits....   eventually. With the ones who don't, you get the backlash instantly.

In most situations, the risk is too big to take.

A surprising number of those that do re-assess decide that you're OK, but probably not a real Gypsy

Ouch.

I hold my hands up and say that had I known Tom was a Gyspy before he 'came out' on the forum I am sure i would have read his posts with different eyes. No doubt about it - I was predudiced. I thought I no longer had that predudice and would view everyone the same but that last post from Tom just shocked me to the core.

As i was reading it I agreed with it. I am really shocked that I would think like that. Then i realised I was getting confused......you are a real Gypsy but in some ways you are different from an average Gypsy which sets you apart in my eyes not just from the average Gypsy but the average person. How many Gypsies have had tea with the Queen? Not many!

I love this thread - it's like a Blonde campfire. Lots of discusson, exchange of views, no trolling allowed.

[RED-DOG]

I know for instance, that if I were filling out a housing form, or registering with the dentist, that I wouldn't tick the box that said "Gypsy".   

The rest of your reply made so much sense that this stood out - why not?

You don't think that some people will treat you with caution or suspicion, even open hostility when they know you're a Gypsy?

On the other hand, do you think that the same people will re-assess their opinions after having dealt with you if you never tell them you are a Gypsy?

Some do, (but it takes quite a while) and some don't.

So with the ones that do, you reap the benefits....   eventually. With the ones who don't, you get the backlash instantly.

In most situations, the risk is too big to take.

A surprising number of those that do re-assess decide that you're OK, but probably not a real Gypsy

Doesn't anticipating hostility from people who deal with Gypsies exhibit the same level of discriminatory mindset as people anticipating trouble when dealing with Gypsies? In both cases you're not allowing individuals to prove themselves independent from the stereotype.

Yes Sir. It undoubtedly does. But when your anticipating a poke in the eye, you blink.

[RED-DOG]

I know for instance, that if I were filling out a housing form, or registering with the dentist, that I wouldn't tick the box that said "Gypsy".  

The rest of your reply made so much sense that this stood out - why not?

You don't think that some people will treat you with caution or suspicion, even open hostility when they know you're a Gypsy?

On the other hand, do you think that the same people will re-assess their opinions after having dealt with you if you never tell them you are a Gypsy?

Some do, (but it takes quite a while) and some don't.

So with the ones that do, you reap the benefits....   eventually. With the ones who don't, you get the backlash instantly.

In most situations, the risk is too big to take.

A surprising number of those that do re-assess decide that you're OK, but probably not a real Gypsy

Ouch.

I hold my hands up and say that had I known Tom was a Gyspy before he 'came out' on the forum I am sure i would have read his posts with different eyes. No doubt about it - I was predudiced. I thought I no longer had that predudice and would view everyone the same but that last post from Tom just shocked me to the core.

As i was reading it I agreed with it. I am really shocked that I would think like that. Then i realised I was getting confused......you are a real Gypsy but in some ways you are different from an average Gypsy which sets you apart in my eyes not just from the average Gypsy but the average person. How many Gypsies have had tea with the Queen? Not many!

I love this thread - it's like a Blonde campfire. Lots of discusson, exchange of views, no trolling allowed.

Thank you Trace.

Jerome K Jerome, (That bloke who wrote Three Men in a Boat) once said, "It is in our faults and failings, not in our virtues, that we touch each other, and find sympathy. It is in our follies that we are one"

[RED-DOG]

Speaking of quotations, I came across great one for poker players.



One of the common failings among honourable people is a failure to appreciate how thoroughly dishonourable some other people can be, and how dangerous it is to trust them.

Thomas Sowell

[gatso]

Sometimes, a lack of cultural awareness on the part of the service provider prevents G&T from receiving the help they need. Example. a doctor might ask "Do you have and mental health problems?" Most Gypsies would associate the words "Mental health" with some form of madness, and would answer "No" Whereas if the question were asked in a more sympathetic manner, the answer might be "Yes, I am very bad with my nerves".

I'm not sure how this has anything to do with cultural awareness. most people would respond in the way you describe when faced with that question

[RED-DOG]

Sometimes, a lack of cultural awareness on the part of the service provider prevents G&T from receiving the help they need. Example. a doctor might ask "Do you have and mental health problems?" Most Gypsies would associate the words "Mental health" with some form of madness, and would answer "No" Whereas if the question were asked in a more sympathetic manner, the answer might be "Yes, I am very bad with my nerves".

I'm not sure how this has anything to do with cultural awareness. most people would respond in the way you describe when faced with that question

You're probably right.

What I was trying to put across the concept that the majority of the settled community's idea of "Mental health problems" would include things like high levels of stress or depression.

I only included it because I know of a specific case where a Gypsy woman twice refused treatment when the words "Mental health" was used to describe her condition.

But, perhaps it was a poor example. I'm just shooting from the lip here, hoping that most people will get the general idea.

[Jon MW]

...
Regardless of that, I know that some G&T do use supporting people services. So why do the service providers assume they don't?.

Monitoring, or the lack of it.

Have you ever filled in a monitoring form? Of course you have. And among those little tick-boxes where you state your ethnicity, have you ever seen one for "Gypsy"?

I suspect not.

So. even when G&T do use SP services, it isn't recorded, and as a result, there is no reliable data about any of the problems that Gypsies and Travellers face.

...

I went to a very good lecture once which covered the problems with surveys and monitoring and statistics in general - but it specifically addressed the problem with ethnicity monitoring as well.

You've basically covered the answer here - generally when people try to monitor the ethnicity of the people involved in an activity they're actually monitoring black, white and Asian. Some of them can be split into 2 or 3 sub-groups but ultimately what nobody ever does is just ask people to write down their ethnicity. They do this because that would make it much harder to analyse - but obviously once you simplify things like that, it means the results you get lose so much of their value that the person who was giving this lecture, for example, suggested you might as well not bother to start with (her main point being that people should actually do it properly though).

So essentially the underlying reason why 'Gypsy' isn't usually monitored - and the reason why the census will only have the option of, "Gypsy/Irish Traveller", is because it's easier that way.

[Claw75]

don't most of those forms now include an 'other' option?

[mondatoo]

I just about sobered up now

I'm such a tool. But at least I was a happy drunk, innit.

[rex008]

Tom, as you may be aware, the 2011 census is coming up (27th March). I would guess that the general attitude of Gypsies is to be fairly suspicious towards something like that? Do travelling people in general even get censused? Would your current job role include encouraging that to happen? What's your personal opinion on the process?

The whole issue is fraught with problems and difficulties Rex.

...

Problem two. In many situations, it is detrimental for a Gypsy or Traveller to identify themselves as such. I know for instance, that if I were filling out a housing form, or registering with the dentist, that I wouldn't tick the box that said "Gypsy".   

Sorry for the rambling reply, I hope it makes some sense.

Thanks for that. Makes a lot of sense. Especially this bit. I also suspect that you'd get more new-age travellers identify themselves as Gypsy/IrishTraveller (when they're not) than actual Gypsies. Which would skew/invalidate the results anyway.

Personally, I'm not sure whether I think the census is a waste of time & money anyway. One hand says it is, in terms of current planning. Mostly useless. And I'm against the idea of government keeping vast quantities of data on it's citizens in principle. Other hand says that as a historical record it's completely invaluable - the data you can get out the >100 year old data is absolutely fascinating. Whether that makes it worth £500m...?

[RED-DOG]

What happened here?

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