Independence Referendum

[mulhuzz]

Actual EU law experts are roundly agreed that there is no automatic right of succession for Scotland. People dismissing JMB comments without offering an alternative position that isn't 'what does he know anyway' etc

What process will they use to remove my European citizenship?  How will they know whether I am an inhabitant of Scotland at the date they decide to remove my EU citizenship?

That's an interesting technical question (and wp for noting that European Citizenship is a 'thing').

I think clearly they are separate citizenships which are complementary - so 'citizen of EU member state --> citizen of EU' in broad strokes. Ofc there are corner cases (before you start mentioning refugees, etc) but general point stands.

Flip side: note 'inhabitant' isnt citizen ofc in technical terms. In general EU is Sui generis so lots of 'corner cases' but imagine first birth in an independent Scotland which isn't EU member. How can be EU citizen?

I used "inhabitant" quite deliberately as obviously at the date of EU expulsion, Scotland will contain UK citizens (from all the home countries), Germans, Poles, Italians etc etc etc.  Presumably all will be tagged by an EU taskforce so they can be recognised at borders in the future and held in secure units till their status is determined.

It will be up to Scotland to decide on their status obviously and likely there is a transition period (driven by Scotland not by EU) to deal with that kind of issue.

Hopefully in their stay in these secure units they won't have to put up with endless amounts of facetiousness. That would rather be an affront to their human rights

[horseplayer]

The No's have been caught hopping by the support behind the Yes campaign

Definitely got them rattled

[Kmac84]

As has been said a million times ITT:

Actual EU law experts are roundly agreed that there is no automatic right of succession for Scotland. People dismissing JMB comments without offering an alternative position that isn't 'what does he know anyway' etc

The continued 'fingers-in-ears-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you-everything-will-be-alright' attitude of the Yes campaign is so incredibly tilting.

I'm not suggesting the No campaign are any better mind. Both sides seem incapable of sensible discussion.

David Edwards doesn't agree with that assessment.  And has been statedbefore the UK Government could have the matter clarified tomorrow but refuses to do so. 

I suppose though when a country is steeped in the black art its hard to change tact.  Stick to what you know. 

The matter is settled. Why is there need for further qualification?

When and where has it been settled?

You speak with a very much matter of fact attitude, a bit like the tory day trippers who come to Scotland and speak down to us. 

[Kmac84]

If only it weren't for the pesky internet cybernats they may have got away with this one. 

Who are "they"?  The top story is certainly true, the 2nd one is possibly true.  Pensions are enormously expensive, both state pensions and public sector ones.  Oil revenues are declining, so it is entirely plausible your big state sector has enormous outstanding pension liabilities many of which won't be clear to your average  man on the street.  Of course it is nearly as bad South of the border, but our state sector is a smaller proportion of the argument. 

Presumably you didn't want a sensible discussion, so wow, quite surprising to find anything true in the Express.  Nasty Tory Press wankers.

WOAH WOAH WOAH

it's absolutely impossible that both stories could both be true.

:rolleyes:

Not sure if serious.  There is not much overlap in the stories apart from the word pensions.  

Just read another decent (imo) blog on the fantastic Wings Over Scotland site. 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/politics-for-vegans/

[Kmac84]

Two good articles I have read today, Happy St George's day as well folks.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/fifty-years-on-labour-still-promising-better-next-time.24033699

http://stephennoon.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/choices.html

[Kmac84]

This is the sort of stuff that should enrage everyone, independence is the only vehicle that will ensure Scotland has an NHS.  

The MP's within the Labour and Conservative parties that have vast shares in private health companies will ensure we are paying for everything soon.  




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[mulhuzz]

This is the sort of stuff that should enrage everyone, independence is the only vehicle that will ensure Scotland has an NHS. 

The MP's within the Labour and Conservative parties that have vast shares in private health companies will ensure we are paying for everything soon. 

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really fkn weird because I think the NHS is one of the most solvable problems for Scotland given they already have broad powers for healthcare. Lots of problems with independence as I see it, but the NO campaign focussing on shite like this is really perverse tbh as it's a non-issue.

[Kmac84]

This is the sort of stuff that should enrage everyone, independence is the only vehicle that will ensure Scotland has an NHS. 

The MP's within the Labour and Conservative parties that have vast shares in private health companies will ensure we are paying for everything soon. 

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really fkn weird because I think the NHS is one of the most solvable problems for Scotland given they already have broad powers for healthcare. Lots of problems with independence as I see it, but the NO campaign focussing on shite like this is really perverse tbh as it's a non-issue.

If we had full control of our budget it would be. 

[Doobs]

This is the sort of stuff that should enrage everyone, independence is the only vehicle that will ensure Scotland has an NHS. 

The MP's within the Labour and Conservative parties that have vast shares in private health companies will ensure we are paying for everything soon. 

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really fkn weird because I think the NHS is one of the most solvable problems for Scotland given they already have broad powers for healthcare. Lots of problems with independence as I see it, but the NO campaign focussing on shite like this is really perverse tbh as it's a non-issue.

You think so?  The NHS Budget rises year after year in real terms whoever is in power.  We have an ageing population so people are going to need more and more healthcare as time goes on.   

It is a bit like the pension problem we glossed over here before.  More and more old people with unfunded promises of pensions means an ever increasing budget for pensions.  Spending will be going up on pensions whoever is in Government in Scotland.

You crack those two problems in the future, you keep the electorate onside, you get elected forever. 

That means you won't need to worry about decreasing oil revenues, the budget deficit and appearing credible enough to be able to borrow money at rates close to those that the GB pays rather than those that Scotland pays.  You won't need to pretend you can save your oil revenues for future generations, whilst simultaneously having to borrow to cover your deficit.

[mulhuzz]

You're quite right Doobs.

But what I mean is that that isn't a problem exclusive to an independent Scotland.

[Kmac84]

I don't thnk anyone is claiming any problems are exclusive to an independent Scotland. 

However the only way Scotland can better itself is by being independent and the question really should be why shouldn't it.  Its the right of every country to maintain its sovereignty but it seems in the case of England that only applies to countries she deems worthy. 

Now that is not a dig at anyone posting on this thread but there are some massive misconceptions from those posting. 

[mulhuzz]

I don't thnk anyone is claiming any problems are exclusive to an independent Scotland.  

However the only way Scotland can better itself is by being independent and the question really should be why shouldn't it.  Its the right of every country to maintain its sovereignty but it seems in the case of England that only applies to countries she deems worthy.  

Now that is not a dig at anyone posting on this thread but there are some massive misconceptions from those posting.  

Disagree. For two reasons:

1. There are definitely some problems (how to join the EU) which only affect an independent Scotland, not the Union.

2. You say 'England only gives independence to those worthy' (or similar, not a direct quote). Well that's obviously just horseshit isn't it. If you can name one country we haven't given (as a Union, btw, pls don't think you can take the position that  England make all decisions without Scottish input, we act as a Union) independence to. Also note our absolutely staunch defence of people (eg Gibraltar, Falklands) to self determine.

Adding a third reason:

3. Scotland can only improve itself as an independent nation? Last time I was there it certainly wasn't the 1700s mind. Glib, jingoistic, rubbish. Sorry, but it is.

[Kmac84]

I don't thnk anyone is claiming any problems are exclusive to an independent Scotland.  

However the only way Scotland can better itself is by being independent and the question really should be why shouldn't it.  Its the right of every country to maintain its sovereignty but it seems in the case of England that only applies to countries she deems worthy.  

Now that is not a dig at anyone posting on this thread but there are some massive misconceptions from those posting.  

Disagree. For two reasons:

1. There are definitely some problems (how to join the EU) which only affect an independent Scotland, not the Union.

2. You say 'England only gives independence to those worthy' (or similar, not a direct quote). Well that's obviously just horseshit isn't it. If you can name one country we haven't given (as a Union, btw, pls don't think you can take the position that  England make all decisions without Scottish input, we act as a Union) independence to. Also note our absolutely staunch defence of people (eg Gibraltar, Falklands) to self determine.

Adding a third reason:

3. Scotland can only improve itself as an independent nation? Last time I was there it certainly wasn't the 1700s mind. Glib, jingoistic, rubbish. Sorry, but it is.

1) Joining the EU is not a problem as has previously been stated the UK government could have this question answered tomorrow but refuse to ask.  But please see here http://www.scottishconstitutionalfutures.org/OpinionandAnalysis/ViewBlogPost/tabid/1767/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/852/David-Edward-Scotland-and-the-European-Union.aspx

2) So Cameron can spout about the Soveregnty of Ukraine but Scotland can't be a sovereign country. 

3) Scotland is going backwards as part of the Union.  It may not be the 1700's but thats a redic comparison.  As time changes things evolve.  But there is no reason for the high numbers of law paid jobs we have, people being sanctioned on the benefit system or children growing up in poverty. 

[scotty77]

2) So Cameron can spout about the Soveregnty of Ukraine but Scotland can't be a sovereign country. 


Quote of this?  Cameron is the PM that had to sign off on the referendum taking place.  If he had denied it then fair enough. 

Don't think anyone is saying that Scotland wouldn't be fine if it did choose a yes vote.  Obviously the PM has to campaign for the no vote; despite it actually being better for him and his party if a yes vote were achieved.

[Kmac84]

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