Independence Referendum

[Doobs]

If only it weren't for the pesky internet cybernats they may have got away with this one. 

Who are "they"?  The top story is certainly true, the 2nd one is possibly true.  Pensions are enormously expensive, both state pensions and public sector ones.  Oil revenues are declining, so it is entirely plausible your big state sector has enormous outstanding pension liabilities many of which won't be clear to your average  man on the street.  Of course it is nearly as bad South of the border, but our state sector is a smaller proportion of the argument. 

Presumably you didn't want a sensible discussion, so wow, quite surprising to find anything true in the Express.  Nasty Tory Press wankers.

[Kmac84]

Only too happy to have a serious discussion. 

The 2nd headline was written ins such a matter of fact way.  It is also a myth that Scotland is a "big state sector" but why let that get in the way of anything?

Still waiting on you coming back to me regards your previous post on this thread. 

[mulhuzz]

If only it weren't for the pesky internet cybernats they may have got away with this one. 

Who are "they"?  The top story is certainly true, the 2nd one is possibly true.  Pensions are enormously expensive, both state pensions and public sector ones.  Oil revenues are declining, so it is entirely plausible your big state sector has enormous outstanding pension liabilities many of which won't be clear to your average  man on the street.  Of course it is nearly as bad South of the border, but our state sector is a smaller proportion of the argument. 

Presumably you didn't want a sensible discussion, so wow, quite surprising to find anything true in the Express.  Nasty Tory Press wankers.

WOAH WOAH WOAH

it's absolutely impossible that both stories could both be true.

:rolleyes:

[Longines]

It is also a myth that Scotland is a "big state sector" but why let that get in the way of anything?

It looks pretty big to the ONS?



http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pse/public-sector-employment/q2-2013/stb-pse-2013q2.html#tab-Public-and-Private-Sector-Employment

[Kmac84]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/barely-worth-the-bother/

[doubleup]

There will be a currency union imo IF satisfactory negotiations take place over debt/pensions/financial services regulation.  Mainly because Scotland will only take over rUK liabilities (including pensions) on a voluntary basis and they clearly can't do this if the liabilities are in a foreign currency.

The banks/insurance co thing is a red herring.  Yes, there might be corporate structure changes to ensure that customers feel protected, but Standard Life, for example, have been quite happy to farm jobs out to India - so I can't see why they would need to completely relocate to England at enormous cost.

I wouldn't pay any attention to Barrosso etc.  A refusal to recognise Scotland would be a colossal legal quagmire.  There won't be such a thing as people with unique Scottish citizenship for sometime, so everyone has UK and European citizenship. What process are they going to use to eject part of a member nation, its inhabitants and businesses from the EU?

[Kmac84]

There will be a currency union imo IF satisfactory negotiations take place over debt/pensions/financial services regulation.  Mainly because Scotland will only take over rUK liabilities (including pensions) on a voluntary basis and they clearly can't do this if the liabilities are in a foreign currency.

The banks/insurance co thing is a red herring.  Yes, there might be corporate structure changes to ensure that customers feel protected, but Standard Life, for example, have been quite happy to farm jobs out to India - so I can't see why they would need to completely relocate to England at enormous cost.

I wouldn't pay any attention to Barrosso etc.  A refusal to recognise Scotland would be a colossal legal quagmire.  There won't be such a thing as people with unique Scottish citizenship for sometime, so everyone has UK and European citizenship. What process are they going to use to eject part of a member nation, its inhabitants and businesses from the EU?

Can't disagree with that.  As for Barrosso, it seems the NO/Unionist Campaign are a happy clappy bunch to treat him as the faunt of all knowledge when it suits.  But I heard very little of him being championed when he said:

“David Cameron’s plans to claw back UK powers from Brussels are ‘doomed to failure’ as all 28 member states would fail to back Britain’s ‘unreasonable’ demands, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso has warned.

Barroso poured scorn on the Prime Minister’s plan to bring legislation from the EU back into the UK’s control, insisting that it would only be achievable by reviewing over 150,000 pages of EU law on a case-by-case basis.“

[mulhuzz]

As has been said a million times ITT:

Actual EU law experts are roundly agreed that there is no automatic right of succession for Scotland. People dismissing JMB comments without offering an alternative position that isn't 'what does he know anyway' etc

The continued 'fingers-in-ears-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you-everything-will-be-alright' attitude of the Yes campaign is so incredibly tilting.

I'm not suggesting the No campaign are any better mind. Both sides seem incapable of sensible discussion.

[doubleup]

Actual EU law experts are roundly agreed that there is no automatic right of succession for Scotland. People dismissing JMB comments without offering an alternative position that isn't 'what does he know anyway' etc

What process will they use to remove my European citizenship?  How will they know whether I am an inhabitant of Scotland at the date they decide to remove my EU citizenship?

[Kmac84]

As has been said a million times ITT:

Actual EU law experts are roundly agreed that there is no automatic right of succession for Scotland. People dismissing JMB comments without offering an alternative position that isn't 'what does he know anyway' etc

The continued 'fingers-in-ears-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you-everything-will-be-alright' attitude of the Yes campaign is so incredibly tilting.

I'm not suggesting the No campaign are any better mind. Both sides seem incapable of sensible discussion.

David Edwards doesn't agree with that assessment.  And has been statedbefore the UK Government could have the matter clarified tomorrow but refuses to do so. 

I suppose though when a country is steeped in the black art its hard to change tact.  Stick to what you know. 

[mulhuzz]

Actual EU law experts are roundly agreed that there is no automatic right of succession for Scotland. People dismissing JMB comments without offering an alternative position that isn't 'what does he know anyway' etc

What process will they use to remove my European citizenship?  How will they know whether I am an inhabitant of Scotland at the date they decide to remove my EU citizenship?

That's an interesting technical question (and wp for noting that European Citizenship is a 'thing').

I think clearly they are separate citizenships which are complementary - so 'citizen of EU member state --> citizen of EU' in broad strokes. Ofc there are corner cases (before you start mentioning refugees, etc) but general point stands.

Flip side: note 'inhabitant' isnt citizen ofc in technical terms. In general EU is Sui generis so lots of 'corner cases' but imagine first birth in an independent Scotland which isn't EU member. How can be EU citizen?

[mulhuzz]

As has been said a million times ITT:

Actual EU law experts are roundly agreed that there is no automatic right of succession for Scotland. People dismissing JMB comments without offering an alternative position that isn't 'what does he know anyway' etc

The continued 'fingers-in-ears-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you-everything-will-be-alright' attitude of the Yes campaign is so incredibly tilting.

I'm not suggesting the No campaign are any better mind. Both sides seem incapable of sensible discussion.

David Edwards doesn't agree with that assessment.  And has been statedbefore the UK Government could have the matter clarified tomorrow but refuses to do so. 

I suppose though when a country is steeped in the black art its hard to change tact.  Stick to what you know. 

The matter is settled. Why is there need for further qualification?

[Doobs]

If only it weren't for the pesky internet cybernats they may have got away with this one. 

Who are "they"?  The top story is certainly true, the 2nd one is possibly true.  Pensions are enormously expensive, both state pensions and public sector ones.  Oil revenues are declining, so it is entirely plausible your big state sector has enormous outstanding pension liabilities many of which won't be clear to your average  man on the street.  Of course it is nearly as bad South of the border, but our state sector is a smaller proportion of the argument. 

Presumably you didn't want a sensible discussion, so wow, quite surprising to find anything true in the Express.  Nasty Tory Press wankers.

WOAH WOAH WOAH

it's absolutely impossible that both stories could both be true.

:rolleyes:

Not sure if serious.  There is not much overlap in the stories apart from the word pensions.  

[doubleup]

Actual EU law experts are roundly agreed that there is no automatic right of succession for Scotland. People dismissing JMB comments without offering an alternative position that isn't 'what does he know anyway' etc

What process will they use to remove my European citizenship?  How will they know whether I am an inhabitant of Scotland at the date they decide to remove my EU citizenship?

That's an interesting technical question (and wp for noting that European Citizenship is a 'thing').

I think clearly they are separate citizenships which are complementary - so 'citizen of EU member state --> citizen of EU' in broad strokes. Ofc there are corner cases (before you start mentioning refugees, etc) but general point stands.

Flip side: note 'inhabitant' isnt citizen ofc in technical terms. In general EU is Sui generis so lots of 'corner cases' but imagine first birth in an independent Scotland which isn't EU member. How can be EU citizen?

I used "inhabitant" quite deliberately as obviously at the date of EU expulsion, Scotland will contain UK citizens (from all the home countries), Germans, Poles, Italians etc etc etc.  Presumably all will be tagged by an EU taskforce so they can be recognised at borders in the future and held in secure units till their status is determined.

[mulhuzz]

If only it weren't for the pesky internet cybernats they may have got away with this one. 

Who are "they"?  The top story is certainly true, the 2nd one is possibly true.  Pensions are enormously expensive, both state pensions and public sector ones.  Oil revenues are declining, so it is entirely plausible your big state sector has enormous outstanding pension liabilities many of which won't be clear to your average  man on the street.  Of course it is nearly as bad South of the border, but our state sector is a smaller proportion of the argument. 

Presumably you didn't want a sensible discussion, so wow, quite surprising to find anything true in the Express.  Nasty Tory Press wankers.

WOAH WOAH WOAH

it's absolutely impossible that both stories could both be true.

:rolleyes:

Not sure if serious.  There is not much overlap in the stories apart from the word pensions.  

Confirmed serious