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Poll
Question: Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?
Yes - because it would be better for the Scots
Yes - because the rest of the UK would be better off without the Scots
Don't really know
Don't care
No, the Union is a good thing

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Author Topic: Independence Referendum  (Read 193541 times)
Jon MW
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« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2012, 05:16:51 PM »

I found the BBC analysis of whether Scotland would be better or worse off

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16548644

It's a long article with lots in it - so prob not worth the effort unless the subject particularly interests you
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Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield

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gatso
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« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2012, 05:29:22 PM »

If Scotland was independent the RBS crisis would have sent them busto already. I was listening to a debate about this on radio 4, some English MP raised the point that without the British bail-out Scotland would be basically Greece with shit weather.

they would have endded up more like Iceland , but Iceland 3 banks were broke & only one of Scotlands two banks was bust

think Scotland will never be independant , they will leave they UK to be small state in the EU , is that what Scotish people realy want

Let's introduce some facts here. Last time there was a referendum in Scotland over Home Rule the UK Government played the 'you couldn't make it on your own' card. The referendum failed.

30 years afterwards the Government papers from the time were published - and the leading economist of the time had told the UK Government that Scotland were likely to become one of the best economies in Europe, but England would suffer a depression.

Like a wife trying to leave an abusive husband Scotland was browbeaten into staying  - against our best interests.

So when Westminster starts the 'you won't manage on your own' attacks, excuse me while I look upon it with disdain and disgust.

so your fact that you've introduced is that one particular bloke took a guess at what would happen? not a great fact tbh
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MintTrav
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« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2012, 06:00:56 PM »

It's a long article with lots in it - so prob not worth the effort

Okay, I won't read it then.
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Solaris
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« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2012, 06:07:17 PM »

Let them become an independent nation then invade them, take them for all they're worth and make them our bitches once again.

Easy.
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Raman
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« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2012, 06:49:31 PM »

So let me get this clear.  Scotland is reliant on the british state and handouts from England? Helps increase the number of Labour delegates at Westminister yet the Tories and Lib Dems are doing their damdest to preserve the status quo?

We were told in the 70's that the oil was running dry, yet oil companies are still ploughing hundreds of money into the north sea drilling for oil and gas.

Additionally with natural resources, agriculture, fisheries, renewable energy, manufacturing and engineering I am 100% confident that Scotland would be able to stand on its own two feet.

For many English people though there is an inferiority complex, there is a genuine belief that Scotland, Wales and Ireland rely on being part of the UK.   
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« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2012, 07:31:43 PM »

So let me get this clear.  Scotland is reliant on the british state and handouts from England? Helps increase the number of Labour delegates at Westminister yet the Tories and Lib Dems are doing their damdest to preserve the status quo?

We were told in the 70's that the oil was running dry, yet oil companies are still ploughing hundreds of money into the north sea drilling for oil and gas.

Additionally with natural resources, agriculture, fisheries, renewable energy, manufacturing and engineering I am 100% confident that Scotland would be able to stand on its own two feet.

For many English people though there is an inferiority complex, there is a genuine belief that Scotland, Wales and Ireland rely on being part of the UK.   

An ICM survey for The Sunday Telegraph conducted just a couple of weeks ago showed a majority of Scots wanted to remain as part of the uk and the majority of English were happy for them to go. A majority of Scottish people said they thought they would be worse off on their own and as such conceded they are reliant on being part of the uk themselves. When Salmond holds a referendum that point will be made clear to him, when he eventually holds one that is, on teh 700th anniversay of Bannockburn or whatever.
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Solaris
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« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2012, 07:33:51 PM »

For many English people though there is an inferiority complex,    

 Cheesy

Behave.
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Jon MW
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« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2012, 07:39:04 PM »

...
Additionally with natural resources, agriculture, fisheries, renewable energy, manufacturing and engineering I am 100% confident that Scotland would be able to stand on its own two feet.
...

I don't think anybody is arguing that Scotland couldn't have a feasible economy by itself - not anybody who is arguing seriously about it anyway.

It's the level that economy would operate at is the question. The real answer to that is nobody knows because there are too many variables.
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Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield

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« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2012, 07:40:46 PM »

For many English people though there is an inferiority complex,    

 Cheesy

Behave.

Wouldn't how Raman described it be a superiority complex anyway?
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Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield

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« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2012, 08:15:17 PM »

For many English people though there is an inferiority complex,    

 Cheesy

Behave.

Wouldn't how Raman described it be a superiority complex anyway?

Indeed it would, but his intentions are obvious.

Either way it's laughable. I'd be more than happy for us all to go our separate ways.
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doubleup
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« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2012, 10:17:04 PM »


An ICM survey for The Sunday Telegraph conducted just a couple of weeks ago showed a majority of Scots wanted to remain as part of the uk and the majority of English were happy for them to go. A majority of Scottish people said they thought they would be worse off on their own and as such conceded they are reliant on being part of the uk themselves. When Salmond holds a referendum that point will be made clear to him, when he eventually holds one that is, on teh 700th anniversay of Bannockburn or whatever.

look up majority in a dictionary


hint your tory pals don't have one in parliament
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Rod Paradise
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« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2012, 01:08:45 AM »

If Scotland was independent the RBS crisis would have sent them busto already. I was listening to a debate about this on radio 4, some English MP raised the point that without the British bail-out Scotland would be basically Greece with shit weather.

they would have endded up more like Iceland , but Iceland 3 banks were broke & only one of Scotlands two banks was bust

think Scotland will never be independant , they will leave they UK to be small state in the EU , is that what Scotish people realy want

Let's introduce some facts here. Last time there was a referendum in Scotland over Home Rule the UK Government played the 'you couldn't make it on your own' card. The referendum failed.

30 years afterwards the Government papers from the time were published - and the leading economist of the time had told the UK Government that Scotland were likely to become one of the best economies in Europe, but England would suffer a depression.

Like a wife trying to leave an abusive husband Scotland was browbeaten into staying  - against our best interests.

So when Westminster starts the 'you won't manage on your own' attacks, excuse me while I look upon it with disdain and disgust.

LOL and then you woke up  Cheesy

Easy researched - go educate yourself.
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Rod Paradise
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« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2012, 01:10:57 AM »

If Scotland was independent the RBS crisis would have sent them busto already. I was listening to a debate about this on radio 4, some English MP raised the point that without the British bail-out Scotland would be basically Greece with shit weather.

they would have endded up more like Iceland , but Iceland 3 banks were broke & only one of Scotlands two banks was bust

think Scotland will never be independant , they will leave they UK to be small state in the EU , is that what Scotish people realy want

Let's introduce some facts here. Last time there was a referendum in Scotland over Home Rule the UK Government played the 'you couldn't make it on your own' card. The referendum failed.

30 years afterwards the Government papers from the time were published - and the leading economist of the time had told the UK Government that Scotland were likely to become one of the best economies in Europe, but England would suffer a depression.

Like a wife trying to leave an abusive husband Scotland was browbeaten into staying  - against our best interests.

So when Westminster starts the 'you won't manage on your own' attacks, excuse me while I look upon it with disdain and disgust.

LOL and then you woke up  Cheesy

Some economists thought Scotland would do well and some thought they wouldn't.

But the one's that thought they would do well were looking at places like Ireland - which were subsidised by Europe and got into a mess when the subsidies ran out and the recession started; Iceland - which built it's economy on banking and got into trouble when the banking crisis occurred; and Norway - which had (and has) a surplus of oil reserve tax revenue compared to the population, which Scotland wouldn't have even if they got most of the North Sea oil revenue.

So if it makes you feel any better - Westminster might have thought they were hiding the truth back then, but actually they were probably right all along.

Em, no Jon, clever though you may be you are completely wrong there. Nothing to do with the Iceland economy model, all to do with the Norway economy. Lots of words all from a  wrong presumption...
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Jon MW
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« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2012, 06:24:48 AM »

If Scotland was independent the RBS crisis would have sent them busto already. I was listening to a debate about this on radio 4, some English MP raised the point that without the British bail-out Scotland would be basically Greece with shit weather.

they would have endded up more like Iceland , but Iceland 3 banks were broke & only one of Scotlands two banks was bust

think Scotland will never be independant , they will leave they UK to be small state in the EU , is that what Scotish people realy want

Let's introduce some facts here. Last time there was a referendum in Scotland over Home Rule the UK Government played the 'you couldn't make it on your own' card. The referendum failed.

30 years afterwards the Government papers from the time were published - and the leading economist of the time had told the UK Government that Scotland were likely to become one of the best economies in Europe, but England would suffer a depression.

Like a wife trying to leave an abusive husband Scotland was browbeaten into staying  - against our best interests.

So when Westminster starts the 'you won't manage on your own' attacks, excuse me while I look upon it with disdain and disgust.

LOL and then you woke up  Cheesy

Some economists thought Scotland would do well and some thought they wouldn't.

But the one's that thought they would do well were looking at places like Ireland - which were subsidised by Europe and got into a mess when the subsidies ran out and the recession started; Iceland - which built it's economy on banking and got into trouble when the banking crisis occurred; and Norway - which had (and has) a surplus of oil reserve tax revenue compared to the population, which Scotland wouldn't have even if they got most of the North Sea oil revenue.

So if it makes you feel any better - Westminster might have thought they were hiding the truth back then, but actually they were probably right all along.

Em, no Jon, clever though you may be you are completely wrong there. Nothing to do with the Iceland economy model, all to do with the Norway economy. Lots of words all from a  wrong presumption...


Generally those group of countries I mentioned - Ireland, Iceland and Norway were what Scotland were being compared to.

Specifically Norway was indeed the one which they were looking to model Scotland on - but it was and is a false analogy, if you include the oil revenue for Scottish waters in the Scottish GDP then it is still over a $100bn less than the Norwegian GDP.
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Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield

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« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2012, 08:05:24 PM »

By John Jappy


As a civil servant in London, and being part of the establishment, I always accepted the general view that an independent Scotland would not be able to survive on its own without financial help from the London Exchequer.

However, when in 1968 I was able to examine the so-called "books" for the first time, I was shocked to find that the position was exactly the opposite and that Scotland contributed much more to the UK economy than its other partners. This was, of course, before the oil boom.
I realised that the Treasury would wish to keep this a secret, as it might feed nationalistic tendencies north of the border, which at that time were very weak. I took the decision to keep an eye on the situation to see how long it would take for the true facts to emerge, which I felt would only be a short time. However, the Treasury and the Establishment did an excellent job, aided and abetted by the media, to keep the myth about Scotland alive.

In fact it took another 30 years before the first chink in their armour started to appear. This came unexpectedly on 13 January 1997 when, in reply to a series of questions put by SNP Leader in the Commons, Alex Salmond MP to the then Tory government, Treasury Minister William Waldegrave admitted that Scotland had paid a massive £27 billion more to the London Exchequer than it had received since the Tories came to power in 1979. Statistically this works out at £5,400 for every Scot.

There were no attempts to refute these figures, which caused much embarrassment to the Tory Government of the day. However, the facts were quickly covered up by the Unionist controlled media.

Then a year later with a Labour government now in power came a further bombshell. Following further promptings by the SNP, on 21 August 1998, Mr Salmond received a letter from the House of Commons Library (ref. 98/8/56 EP/rjt) which gave a table showing that based on Scotland's GDP per capita, Scotland would occupy 7th place in the world's wealth league. The UK was at 17th Place.

When the Labour government came to power it announced a 1p cut in the standard rate of income tax. From my detailed knowledge of income tax, I felt that this was the worst possible thing that they could do, as extra monies would be needed following on from the Thatcher era, if they were to fulfil even a fraction of their promises to the electorate. I came to the conclusion, and I still feel that I was right, that this was done by Labour to prove to the voters of Middle England that they could match the Tories in tax cuts.

Despite the disclosures of 1998, attempts to deceive the Scottish electorate did not end there. In March 1999 a Labour Party leaflet appeared which said that if the SNP were to forego Gordon Brown's 1p cut in the standard rate of income tax, every family in Scotland would be £250 worse off. This became the major topic of a TV debate between Alex Salmond and Donald Dewar. Salmond tried to point out to Dewar that he was using the wrong figures. Watching the debate, I saw Dewar's eyes roll in his head for a few moments but he carried on regardless.

After the debate it took the Labour Party a whole week to admit that they were wrong. There was in fact a whole chain of errors which the Labour Party tried to blame on "printing mistakes". However Labour could not deny the fact that in their calculations the UK average figure, which included the high wage earners in the city of London and the booming economy in the South East corner of England (which if I may say so were the result of the selfish policies of Mrs Margaret Thatcher), the figure used was almost double those of the average Scottish wage which at that time stood at £17,000 per year.

Looking closely at the figures and taking the year 2006 as a benchmark, I found that Scotland had an annual relative surplus of £2,8 billion, which works out at £560 for every man, woman and child. In contrast the UK had a deficit of £34.8 billion.

In November 2006, the U.N. published its annual "Human Development Index". For the sixth year running, oil rich Norway topped the list, and won on such factors as generous welfare payments, education, high income and a long life expectancy. Norway wisely created an "oil fund" in 1995 which in 5 years reached a total of £250 billion, so that Norway sailed through the Credit Crunch.

Who are the real subsidy junkies?

Any lingering doubt that Scotland more than pays its way, or survives on subsidies, was dispelled by a new report published in October 2007. Whilst the Daily Mail, which by no stretch of the imagination could be described as a supporter of Scottish nationalism, devoted a whole page to the analysis of the report which was based on tax paid per capita as against spending, Northern Ireland received £4,212 more than it paid in tax, North East England £3,133, Wales £2,990, N.W. England £1732, South West England £978, West Midlands £931, East Midlands £185 and lastly Scotland £38. Only the South East corner produced a small surplus due to tax paid on the high wages within the city of London at this time (pre-Credit Crunch).

Analysis

It is no longer refuted that Scotland exports more per capita than the rest of the UK. In 1968 when I first discovered that Scotland was in surplus in relation to the rest of the UK, its exports could be broken down into whisky, meat, timber, fish, and of course tourism which is a huge hidden income. Those exports are supported by a population of only 5,000,000 as against 45,000,000 for the rest of the UK, quite a substantial advantage.
With the oil boom, Scotland's economy was transformed. Scottish oil has to date funded the Treasury with £300 billion, which has pushed Scotland up from 7th place in World Wealth rankings, had it been in control of its own resources, to 3rd place.

On 29 May 2008, Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling admitted in a back-handed way, that Scotland's oil revenue had been underwriting the UK's failure to balance its books for decades. There is still 30 years of oil supply left in the North Sea (some 150 million barrels) valued at 2008 prices at 1 trillion dollars. This excludes the new fields being brought into production in deeper waters west of Shetland.

Meantime whisky exports, which I listed in 1968 as one of Scotland's top assets, have risen at a phenomenal rate. For example, whisky exports to China amounted to £1 million in 2000/2001, by 2007 they had risen to £70 million. They have continued to rise, although I don't have more recent statistics.

On the economies of Independence, Scotland has also 18 times its requirements in North Sea gas, which on current trading is more expensive than oil. The country exports 24% of its surplus electricity south of the Border, with much of the back-up by Hydro Electric unused.
Even if nuclear is excluded, the future looks bright, the new Glen Doe hydro station on Loch Ness which was opened by Scotland's First Minister last year can produce enough electricity for 240,000 homes. Further projects down the Loch which have now reached the planning stage will increase this to over 1,000,000 homes. Wind and wave energy will also contribute significantly in the future.

No doubt as the time draws nearer to the referendum on Scottish Independence, politicians will do their best to distort the figures, but the truth is something that never varies.


Before retiring, John Jappy was a senior civil servant in the Inland Revenue, working for the Accountant & Comptroller General's Branch based at Somerset House in London. His duties involved liaising closely with Treasury officials to prepare accounts and financial information for UK government ministers.

http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php....nancially-sound
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