The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[nirvana]

What I don’t get here is that if we choose to vote against no deal, but also vote against an extension, we still leave with no deal?

I also think a GE will be called - But unless she wins a lot bigger majority, then what does it solve?

At what point do we just revoke leaving, because we can’t solve it. And whilst the brexiters May hate a second vote, it may genuinely be the only way to avoid Brexit being stopped.

You keep talking like a second ref will solve everything.

What if the result is exactly the same maestro?

It seems the best option to me. Then the people can overrule MP’s to finally process this ‘deal’ or choose to remain as they know now what Brexit looks like. This is the only way to get on with it.

Otherwise you have 650 MP’s who’ll never agree to vote for a deal. Not enough time. Whilst all the time a GE, may not have the desired result.

This is the problem really, we don't have a clue what Brexit looks like- all we know is what terrible negotiation looks like (assuming we were genuinely trying to leave) or what obfuscation, prevarication and organised resistance looks like.

[SuuPRlim]

Used to be the case that MPs were elected by the public to act as public servants and carry out the will of the people

Thought that was democracy

Now we have MPs refusing to exercise the will of the people, seemingly about to force another vote upon the people, squeezing the elected government to bend to their will

Not sure what that is but doesn’t look like democracy to me.

Remain might celebrate this turn of events but it’s a pretty dangerous road to travel, regards democracy, freedom and overall public engagement in politics. But as long as the minority get what they want...

I agree to a point that it's somewhat of a dangerous road to go down having a referendum and then look to go back on it, but on the other hand BREXIT has become one of possibly the biggest political messes in history. There doesn't appear to be any solution on the horizon and options for any resolution look bleak to me, why not let the population decide?  Put a few options together, No - Deal, Medium-soft, Soft and NO Brexit and see which one wins, if the nation wants brexit to go through then surely it'll pass a second vote?

If there was any chance whatsoever of this mess sorting itself out then I'd be strongly against a second ref on principle (even though I voted remain) however not really seeing how it does.

Perhaps I should give the government a bit more credit for being able to sort it, but as I said before I don't think any politician living or dead could handle brexit properly, I think it's just impossible.

Whole thing is a full on debacle, but im fed up of people blaming leave voters or speaking to them like they don't understand what they're doing, really annoys me that, it's not the fault of anyone voting leave that this mess has come, I didn't vote it but i respect why people did.

[MANTIS01]

Used to be the case that MPs were elected by the public to act as public servants and carry out the will of the people

Thought that was democracy

Now we have MPs refusing to exercise the will of the people, seemingly about to force another vote upon the people, squeezing the elected government to bend to their will

Not sure what that is but doesn’t look like democracy to me.

Remain might celebrate this turn of events but it’s a pretty dangerous road to travel, regards democracy, freedom and overall public engagement in politics. But as long as the minority get what they want...

The problem with the the ‘will of the people’ is that it is nearly always somewhere between poorly informed and wilfully ignorant (think of your posts itt). That is why all western democracies are some form of representative democracy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

Sounds like the way Assad feels about his people

No doubt this attitude promotes huge disengagement with politics which leaves a small number of elite level thinkers like yourself to do things your way.

Just how it should be.

[MANTIS01]

Used to be the case that MPs were elected by the public to act as public servants and carry out the will of the people

Thought that was democracy

Now we have MPs refusing to exercise the will of the people, seemingly about to force another vote upon the people, squeezing the elected government to bend to their will

Not sure what that is but doesn’t look like democracy to me.

Remain might celebrate this turn of events but it’s a pretty dangerous road to travel, regards democracy, freedom and overall public engagement in politics. But as long as the minority get what they want...

I agree to a point that it's somewhat of a dangerous road to go down having a referendum and then look to go back on it, but on the other hand BREXIT has become one of possibly the biggest political messes in history. There doesn't appear to be any solution on the horizon and options for any resolution look bleak to me, why not let the population decide?  Put a few options together, No - Deal, Medium-soft, Soft and NO Brexit and see which one wins, if the nation wants brexit to go through then surely it'll pass a second vote?

If there was any chance whatsoever of this mess sorting itself out then I'd be strongly against a second ref on principle (even though I voted remain) however not really seeing how it does.

Perhaps I should give the government a bit more credit for being able to sort it, but as I said before I don't think any politician living or dead could handle brexit properly, I think it's just impossible.

Whole thing is a full on debacle, but im fed up of people blaming leave voters or speaking to them like they don't understand what they're doing, really annoys me that, it's not the fault of anyone voting leave that this mess has come, I didn't vote it but i respect why people did.

What if you hold that second ref and only 5m people vote because the rest can’t be fucked to offer an opinion anymore?

Why take time out your day to have your say only to be ignored cos it’s not the right choice? Don’t forget we are ignorant and ill informed. Pretty sure I wouldn’t vote again.

[SuuPRlim]

true... true

its basically just fucked isnt it.

[Pokerpops]

Used to be the case that MPs were elected by the public to act as public servants and carry out the will of the people

Thought that was democracy

Now we have MPs refusing to exercise the will of the people, seemingly about to force another vote upon the people, squeezing the elected government to bend to their will

Not sure what that is but doesn’t look like democracy to me.

Remain might celebrate this turn of events but it’s a pretty dangerous road to travel, regards democracy, freedom and overall public engagement in politics. But as long as the minority get what they want...

I agree to a point that it's somewhat of a dangerous road to go down having a referendum and then look to go back on it, but on the other hand BREXIT has become one of possibly the biggest political messes in history. There doesn't appear to be any solution on the horizon and options for any resolution look bleak to me, why not let the population decide?  Put a few options together, No - Deal, Medium-soft, Soft and NO Brexit and see which one wins, if the nation wants brexit to go through then surely it'll pass a second vote?

If there was any chance whatsoever of this mess sorting itself out then I'd be strongly against a second ref on principle (even though I voted remain) however not really seeing how it does.

Perhaps I should give the government a bit more credit for being able to sort it, but as I said before I don't think any politician living or dead could handle brexit properly, I think it's just impossible.

Whole thing is a full on debacle, but im fed up of people blaming leave voters or speaking to them like they don't understand what they're doing, really annoys me that, it's not the fault of anyone voting leave that this mess has come, I didn't vote it but i respect why people did.

What if you hold that second ref and only 5m people vote because the rest can’t be fucked to offer an opinion anymore?

Why take time out your day to have your say only to be ignored cos it’s not the right choice? Don’t forget we are ignorant and ill informed. Pretty sure I wouldn’t vote again.

Turns out we are ignorant, less educated, less numerate.

https://files.osf.io/v1/resources/n5r67/providers/osfstorage/5b3baa27fc7cf4000f3b2884?action=download&version=3&direct&format=pdf

[Jon MW]

Used to be the case that MPs were elected by the public to act as public servants and carry out the will of the people

Thought that was democracy

Now we have MPs refusing to exercise the will of the people, seemingly about to force another vote upon the people, squeezing the elected government to bend to their will

Not sure what that is but doesn’t look like democracy to me.

Remain might celebrate this turn of events but it’s a pretty dangerous road to travel, regards democracy, freedom and overall public engagement in politics. But as long as the minority get what they want...

The problem with the the ‘will of the people’ is that it is nearly always somewhere between poorly informed and wilfully ignorant (think of your posts itt). That is why all western democracies are some form of representative democracy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

Sounds like the way Assad feels about his people

No doubt this attitude promotes huge disengagement with politics which leaves a small number of elite level thinkers like yourself to do things your way.

Just how it should be.

Dictators don't ignore what the people want because they think the people are stupid - they ignore them because they prioritise what is best for them personally rather than what is best for their country.

Most of the general public can barely scrape together a handful of GCSE's and a few might know how to fix an engine - is that really the talent base you'd trust to run the country?

Or, to give a specific example, a significant proportion of the population think that if there is a second referendum and they vote for 'no deal' then it will mean we'll stay in the EU - I'm pretty sure a second referendum won't help to any meaningful extent.

[SuuPRlim]

best option seems to be then, call a GE each party has to include brexit plan in its manifesto and whoever wins gets to do that.

Brexit might be long term best for the UK, or it might not...but one thing no one can disagree with surely is that the Bexit process is one of the worst things thats happened for a fair while.

[Longines]

The problem with a GE is people like Esther McVey and Chris Williamson get elected.

[RED-DOG]

Dictators don't ignore what the people want because they think the people are stupid - they ignore them because they prioritise what is best for them personally rather than what is best for their country.

Most of the general public can barely scrape together a handful of GCSE's and a few might know how to fix an engine - is that really the talent base you'd trust to run the country?

Or, to give a specific example, a significant proportion of the population think that if there is a second referendum and they vote for 'no deal' then it will mean we'll stay in the EU - I'm pretty sure a second referendum won't help to any meaningful extent.

So, according to you, who should have the power and how should they acquire it?

PS- Wouldn't it be great if I were to stumble across you one day sitting in a car that has broken down on the way to a very important meeting?

[doubleup]

Dictators don't ignore what the people want because they think the people are stupid - they ignore them because they prioritise what is best for them personally rather than what is best for their country.

Most of the general public can barely scrape together a handful of GCSE's and a few might know how to fix an engine - is that really the talent base you'd trust to run the country?

Or, to give a specific example, a significant proportion of the population think that if there is a second referendum and they vote for 'no deal' then it will mean we'll stay in the EU - I'm pretty sure a second referendum won't help to any meaningful extent.

So, according to you, who should have the power and how should they acquire it?

PS- Wouldn't it be great if I were to stumble across you one day sitting in a car that has broken down on the way to a very important meeting?

Democracy is flawed as most people are not informed enough to make the complex decisions and believe lies to easily.  Its only purpose is to stop excessive concentration of power and the consequent corruption.

[StuartHopkin]

Dictators don't ignore what the people want because they think the people are stupid - they ignore them because they prioritise what is best for them personally rather than what is best for their country.

Most of the general public can barely scrape together a handful of GCSE's and a few might know how to fix an engine - is that really the talent base you'd trust to run the country?

Or, to give a specific example, a significant proportion of the population think that if there is a second referendum and they vote for 'no deal' then it will mean we'll stay in the EU - I'm pretty sure a second referendum won't help to any meaningful extent.

So, according to you, who should have the power and how should they acquire it?

PS- Wouldn't it be great if I were to stumble across you one day sitting in a car that has broken down on the way to a very important meeting?

It certainly would be!

This thread has a magical way of bringing out people's true colours!

[MANTIS01]

Why not establish a self-appointed think tank of people with the best exam results?

They can decide for everybody who they feel isn't entitled to have a say.

They can adjudicate that it doesn't matter how you simply feel about an issue. If you can't prove the necessary logic to determine your frivolous emotions it doesn't count.

Just a room full of Dr Spock types scratching their chins saying logical or illogical.

[Jon MW]

Dictators don't ignore what the people want because they think the people are stupid - they ignore them because they prioritise what is best for them personally rather than what is best for their country.

Most of the general public can barely scrape together a handful of GCSE's and a few might know how to fix an engine - is that really the talent base you'd trust to run the country?

Or, to give a specific example, a significant proportion of the population think that if there is a second referendum and they vote for 'no deal' then it will mean we'll stay in the EU - I'm pretty sure a second referendum won't help to any meaningful extent.

So, according to you, who should have the power and how should they acquire it?

PS- Wouldn't it be great if I were to stumble across you one day sitting in a car that has broken down on the way to a very important meeting?

If people know how to fix an engine I'd want them if an engine needed fixing - if someone needed to know what the possible fiscal, monetary and trade implications would arise from a hugely complex legal treaty I'd want a group of people with a group of advisors - their expertise would probably cover such subjects as economics, statistics, diplomacy and the law etc.

Is it really so difficult to think the right people to do a job are the ones with the most qualifications and experience in it?

And the qualifications for the average person in the UK is a handful of GCSE's - do you think that is a high enough level of qualification to make complex economic and legal decisions which affect the whole country?


As suggested above - the power should be by a representative democracy, we vote for people because we roughly agree with what they believe (either that the government should do little and only step in when they're needed, or that the government should do a lot to actively interfere and try improve things proactively) - once they're in they represent everybody in the country and do what they think is best for everybody in the country based on the advice of experts. i.e. what they system we basically have now.



EDIT: to put it another way - if you were in a broken down car, or train - would you want a barrister or economist to fix it?

[MANTIS01]

character, ethics and integrity don't stem from qualifications.

MP's are apparently the best qualified and they are all self-serving, doing what's best for them.

Why should us stupid folk trust the wizards to do what's best for us?

What about if people want to trade some economic prosperity for a bigger sense of freedom or justice?

Voting for the Green Party isn't economically viable so why bother?

What a bunch of crap mate.