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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2181086 times)
nirvana
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« Reply #16905 on: March 24, 2019, 10:04:45 AM »



Thought this was pretty good.

The analysis of why people voted to leave is probably the received wisdom on the subject now.

What I still find disturbing is that so many people seem to think that EU has any contribution to make to resolve those issues - perhaps it's trite but all those factors arose while we were members. It makes just as much sense to say they caused the problems as to say they are an integral part of the solution.

Still, the main thrust of the pro EU argument is economic - that GDP will drop if we leave, that some prices might rise due to adverse exchange rate movements etc. Lets just assume that would be the case.

Labour should have got fully behind Brexit, used it as an opportunity to show their working class credentials and aimed for Government at the earliest opportunity so they could implement structural change, a more re-distributive model - the working class getting a bigger share of a lower GDP is more meaningful than any construct about the absolute size of GDP in or out of the EU

I don't know how Labour has managed to align itself with so many people who are earnestly arguing for the status quo. On the marches and in signing petitions, there will be a rabble rousing element who are just gonna protest Government policy - even if it is a policy that the country voted for.

But by far the largest majority will be well heeled, property owning, well paid capitalists (including the champagne socialists) who don't give a real crap about austerity and the underclasses at all. Also evident will be another kind of populism that mobilises young people to be all whiney and protesty without having the first clue about anything really. It won't be the sons and daughters of the sink estates and the working class that have the time,  luxury or vested interest to faff around marching on climate change and Brexit.

Tom Watson - wtf was he on- sorry to single you out Tom
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #16906 on: March 24, 2019, 10:39:34 AM »



Thought this was pretty good.

The analysis of why people voted to leave is probably the received wisdom on the subject now.

What I still find disturbing is that so many people seem to think that EU has any contribution to make to resolve those issues - perhaps it's trite but all those factors arose while we were members. It makes just as much sense to say they caused the problems as to say they are an integral part of the solution.

Still, the main thrust of the pro EU argument is economic - that GDP will drop if we leave, that some prices might rise due to adverse exchange rate movements etc. Lets just assume that would be the case.

Labour should have got fully behind Brexit, used it as an opportunity to show their working class credentials and aimed for Government at the earliest opportunity so they could implement structural change, a more re-distributive model - the working class getting a bigger share of a lower GDP is more meaningful than any construct about the absolute size of GDP in or out of the EU

I don't know how Labour has managed to align itself with so many people who are earnestly arguing for the status quo. On the marches and in signing petitions, there will be a rabble rousing element who are just gonna protest Government policy - even if it is a policy that the country voted for.

But by far the largest majority will be well heeled, property owning, well paid capitalists (including the champagne socialists) who don't give a real crap about austerity and the underclasses at all. Also evident will be another kind of populism that mobilises young people to be all whiney and protesty without having the first clue about anything really. It won't be the sons and daughters of the sink estates and the working class that have the time,  luxury or vested interest to faff around marching on climate change and Brexit.

Tom Watson - wtf was he on- sorry to single you out Tom


I agree with loads of it. Corbyn has been a shambles on this almost throughout, not a May/DC/JRM/ERG level of shambles but a shambles nonetheless. Every time he gets near to a coherent and responsible position, he abandons it and gets lured in by trying to engineer a situation that results in a GE.

Why do you think champagne socialists don’t give a ‘real crap’ about austerity?
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nirvana
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« Reply #16907 on: March 24, 2019, 11:09:10 AM »

I'm suspicious of all people that claim to 'care' about austerity - just picked on champagne socialists in rant mode today :-) A bit irrelevant really because my hardening contempt runs across party and faction lines.

Hundreds of MPs voted to invoke A50, have no experience of life outside politics, use terms like 'respect the result'  but meanwhile do all they can to stop the process, stopping short of having the integrity to call for a revocation.

Them banging on about how much they care while log jamming everything around Brexit is just disgraceful imo.

Corbyn and McDonnell tbf, would have happily just gone with it and gotten on with it so they could move on to other things but the party has collectively stopped them showing leadership while continuing to complain about their lack of leadership. What they mean is, they don't like their views on Brexit - ie ambivalent at best.

Anyway, enough,I'm trying to go cold turkey on Brexit but not working well so far
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #16908 on: March 24, 2019, 11:44:41 AM »

Loving ur work nirvantz

If we do end up having a GE I would predict the lowest % turnout in recent history

Cold turkey or indeed total disengagement in politics seems to be a significant problem and that’s the polar opposite of what I’d like to see. I would prefer folk to care about issues and feel like their contribution/voice matters

It does appear increasingly common this attitude that people are stupid and their vote worthless so I wonder what damage all this has done. I guess the righteous would prefer a small section of professors to be the only folk casting the die but that’s kinda concerning in the grand scheme
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #16909 on: March 24, 2019, 01:35:23 PM »

Loving ur work nirvantz

If we do end up having a GE I would predict the lowest % turnout in recent history

Cold turkey or indeed total disengagement in politics seems to be a significant problem and that’s the polar opposite of what I’d like to see. I would prefer folk to care about issues and feel like their contribution/voice matters

It does appear increasingly common this attitude that people are stupid and their vote worthless so I wonder what damage all this has done. I guess the righteous would prefer a small section of professors to be the only folk casting the die but that’s kinda concerning in the grand scheme

It’s great to have sensible discussion on this. I think there are strong reasons to think voter turnout would be the highest in modern times. 1992 and 1974 being the modern highs. Especially if a group to the right of the current Conservatives can field some decent candidates, clearly this area of the political spectrum needs to be represented in our democracy. It’s another possible upside of the referendum that more people might engage sensibly with politics now that Brexit has caught their interest.
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nirvana
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« Reply #16910 on: March 24, 2019, 01:52:28 PM »

Loving ur work nirvantz

If we do end up having a GE I would predict the lowest % turnout in recent history

Cold turkey or indeed total disengagement in politics seems to be a significant problem and that’s the polar opposite of what I’d like to see. I would prefer folk to care about issues and feel like their contribution/voice matters

It does appear increasingly common this attitude that people are stupid and their vote worthless so I wonder what damage all this has done. I guess the righteous would prefer a small section of professors to be the only folk casting the die but that’s kinda concerning in the grand scheme

It’s great to have sensible discussion on this. I think there are strong reasons to think voter turnout would be the highest in modern times. 1992 and 1974 being the modern highs. Especially if a group to the right of the current Conservatives can field some decent candidates, clearly this area of the political spectrum needs to be represented in our democracy. It’s another possible upside of the referendum that more people might engage sensibly with politics now that Brexit has caught their interest.

Probably veer more to the mantis view regarding engagement even though I agree it's not an ideal outcome.

If there is a second referendum, I definitely won't vote. I didn't have a strong view about in or out but I did think the result presented a watershed opportunity to change the way the country was Governed - if anything, it's proven that fundamental structural change is almost impossible when set against such entrenched vested interest. I will definitely fall into the category of it being pointless expressing my painfully thought through opinion.

Going to be hard to muster up the energy to vote in a GE in the foreseeable as well
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #16911 on: March 24, 2019, 01:55:40 PM »

I guess my thinking is that although lots of people are saying it, very few will actually go down the route of; ‘I feel so strongly about this, I’m going to disengage with it forever.’
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #16912 on: March 24, 2019, 01:58:04 PM »


I completely believe what you say on it though and it’s a shame you feel that way. I dare say your thinking on it is more complex than most.
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #16913 on: March 24, 2019, 02:41:55 PM »

Same thing happened with the pokers. Whole bunch of people got engaged in the game, having fun, contributing. Only for a small selection of all-knowing Harry Potter wizards to tell them they were wrong & stupid. Turned everyday folk right off and the ulta intelligent sorcerers dicked up their own livelihood. Very smart indeed.

When perusing Rotten Tomatoes for movie visual entertainments I know if the chin rubbing film critic score is Fresh Tomato 95% but the average joe score is Rotten Tomatoe 42% it’s gonna be a shit film every time.
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #16914 on: March 24, 2019, 02:58:52 PM »

Same thing happened with the pokers. Whole bunch of people got engaged in the game, having fun, contributing. Only for a small selection of all-knowing Harry Potter wizards to tell them they were wrong & stupid. Turned everyday folk right off and the ulta intelligent sorcerers dicked up their own livelihood. Very smart indeed.

When perusing Rotten Tomatoes for movie visual entertainments I know if the chin rubbing film critic score is Fresh Tomato 95% but the average joe score is Rotten Tomatoe 42% it’s gonna be a shit film every time.

You’re right that telling people they’re ‘wrong & stupid’ is a terrible idea. While I maintain that nearly all of my criticism has been directed at trolling, I’m certainly not perfect on this front and give myself a pretty hard time when I get it wrong (& am stupid).

The film analogy is a good one, I think, probably need more time to think about it. It would be interesting to look at the highest rated films on RT. I just go lucky dip on films, mostly determined by whoever I’m with. Chompy recs on the film thread are consistently good.
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Marky147
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« Reply #16915 on: March 24, 2019, 03:35:20 PM »

Same thing happened with the pokers. Whole bunch of people got engaged in the game, having fun, contributing. Only for a small selection of all-knowing Harry Potter wizards to tell them they were wrong & stupid. Turned everyday folk right off and the ulta intelligent sorcerers dicked up their own livelihood. Very smart indeed.

When perusing Rotten Tomatoes for movie visual entertainments I know if the chin rubbing film critic score is Fresh Tomato 95% but the average joe score is Rotten Tomatoe 42% it’s gonna be a shit film every time.

You’re right that telling people they’re ‘wrong & stupid’ is a terrible idea. While I maintain that nearly all of my criticism has been directed at trolling, I’m certainly not perfect on this front and give myself a pretty hard time when I get it wrong (& am stupid).

The film analogy is a good one, I think, probably need more time to think about it. It would be interesting to look at the highest rated films on RT. I just go lucky dip on films, mostly determined by whoever I’m with. Chompy recs on the film thread are consistently good.

Get Chomps to sort brexit.

He's always been good at getting deals.
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celtic
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« Reply #16916 on: March 24, 2019, 04:11:50 PM »

Same thing happened with the pokers. Whole bunch of people got engaged in the game, having fun, contributing. Only for a small selection of all-knowing Harry Potter wizards to tell them they were wrong & stupid. Turned everyday folk right off and the ulta intelligent sorcerers dicked up their own livelihood. Very smart indeed.

When perusing Rotten Tomatoes for movie visual entertainments I know if the chin rubbing film critic score is Fresh Tomato 95% but the average joe score is Rotten Tomatoe 42% it’s gonna be a shit film every time.

You’re right that telling people they’re ‘wrong & stupid’ is a terrible idea. While I maintain that nearly all of my criticism has been directed at trolling, I’m certainly not perfect on this front and give myself a pretty hard time when I get it wrong (& am stupid).

The film analogy is a good one, I think, probably need more time to think about it. It would be interesting to look at the highest rated films on RT. I just go lucky dip on films, mostly determined by whoever I’m with. Chompy recs on the film thread are consistently good.

Get Chomps to sort brexit.

He's always been good at getting deals.

Especially 28 ways.
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Marky147
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« Reply #16917 on: March 24, 2019, 04:35:10 PM »

Same thing happened with the pokers. Whole bunch of people got engaged in the game, having fun, contributing. Only for a small selection of all-knowing Harry Potter wizards to tell them they were wrong & stupid. Turned everyday folk right off and the ulta intelligent sorcerers dicked up their own livelihood. Very smart indeed.

When perusing Rotten Tomatoes for movie visual entertainments I know if the chin rubbing film critic score is Fresh Tomato 95% but the average joe score is Rotten Tomatoe 42% it’s gonna be a shit film every time.

You’re right that telling people they’re ‘wrong & stupid’ is a terrible idea. While I maintain that nearly all of my criticism has been directed at trolling, I’m certainly not perfect on this front and give myself a pretty hard time when I get it wrong (& am stupid).

The film analogy is a good one, I think, probably need more time to think about it. It would be interesting to look at the highest rated films on RT. I just go lucky dip on films, mostly determined by whoever I’m with. Chompy recs on the film thread are consistently good.

Get Chomps to sort brexit.

He's always been good at getting deals.

Especially 28 ways.

Grin
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MintTrav
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« Reply #16918 on: March 25, 2019, 07:07:37 AM »

The future of the country is in Jacob’s hands:
“A senior Government source confessed that Downing Street was pinning all its hopes on the arch Brexiteer....”


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6843441/amp/Number-10-makes-minute-appeal-Jacob-Rees-Mogg-help-persuade-Tory-rebels-vote-deal.html
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Chompy
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« Reply #16919 on: March 25, 2019, 01:04:55 PM »

Same thing happened with the pokers. Whole bunch of people got engaged in the game, having fun, contributing. Only for a small selection of all-knowing Harry Potter wizards to tell them they were wrong & stupid. Turned everyday folk right off and the ulta intelligent sorcerers dicked up their own livelihood. Very smart indeed.

When perusing Rotten Tomatoes for movie visual entertainments I know if the chin rubbing film critic score is Fresh Tomato 95% but the average joe score is Rotten Tomatoe 42% it’s gonna be a shit film every time.

You’re right that telling people they’re ‘wrong & stupid’ is a terrible idea. While I maintain that nearly all of my criticism has been directed at trolling, I’m certainly not perfect on this front and give myself a pretty hard time when I get it wrong (& am stupid).

The film analogy is a good one, I think, probably need more time to think about it. It would be interesting to look at the highest rated films on RT. I just go lucky dip on films, mostly determined by whoever I’m with. Chompy recs on the film thread are consistently good.

Get Chomps to sort brexit.

He's always been good at getting deals.

Especially 28 ways.

Unnecessary clutter. I only come here to read Adzy.
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"I know we must all worship at the Church of Chomps, but statements like this are just plain ridic. He says he can't get a bet on, but we all know he can."
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