The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Doobs]

the 47 who voted against all in big remain areas

Click to see full-size image.

You sure Tighty?

Took me one guess to find one from a leave area.  Newcastle under Lyme fwiw.  There are a few others that I'd be surprised were leave areas. 

Do you find it strange that the Conservatives are now briefing that they are going to disclose their strategy?  Surely you do thar before the parliamentary vote and not after.  Otherwise you make a mockery of the vote.

Bit like having a referendum where nobody knows precisely what they were voting for, and they still don't.

[TightEnd]

^ i saw an analysis yesterday

labour MP constituencies, MPs who voted for A50 yesterday voted leave 66%

labour MP constituencies, MPs who voted against A50 yesterday, voted leave 39%

i could have checked every constituency in the 47 but think its correc tto say virtually all are remain areas

labour's problem is basically by number of voter the core base is hugely remain but these pile up in metropolitan safe seats eg London. By number of constituencies (heartlands, the north etc) the figure skews hugely to leave

so Corbyn has an impossible job reconciling the two bases, city v heartlands

[EvilPie]

^ i saw an analysis yesterday

labour MP constituencies, MPs who voted for A50 yesterday voted leave 66%

labour MP constituencies, MPs who voted against A50 yesterday, voted leave 39%

i could have checked every constituency in the 47 but think its correc tto say virtually all are remain areas

labour's problem is basically by number of voter the core base is hugely remain but these pile up in metropolitan safe seats eg London. By number of constituencies (heartlands, the north etc) the figure skews hugely to leave

so Corbyn has an impossible job reconciling the two bases, city v heartlands

Don't worry Rich we'll assume your first post was just an alternative truth.

We've gone from stating it was all to thinking it's virtually all? I find this one of the biggest problems with all of these posts in political threads, Facebook etc. People just blindly quote anything if it matches their opinion and only bother to fact check when they don't like it.

And my God do they thoroughly fact check when they don't like it!!

[arbboy]

^ i saw an analysis yesterday

labour MP constituencies, MPs who voted for A50 yesterday voted leave 66%

labour MP constituencies, MPs who voted against A50 yesterday, voted leave 39%

i could have checked every constituency in the 47 but think its correc tto say virtually all are remain areas

labour's problem is basically by number of voter the core base is hugely remain but these pile up in metropolitan safe seats eg London. By number of constituencies (heartlands, the north etc) the figure skews hugely to leave

so Corbyn has an impossible job reconciling the two bases, city v heartlands

Byrant leave constituency and he went against his voters and went remain in the valleys and has been very public about his reasons why.

[TightEnd]

i always put a variety of stuff up, from lots of different viewpoints with sources.

hopefully for people to read. it is an especially fascinating time in politics i think, has been for over a year, with old orders breaking down and one of the single biggest political events we've seen rumbling on.

I will try not to be lazy next time!

[Woodsey]

More terrible news, I don't know how we will survive....

'Bank of England sharply raises 2017 growth outlook'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38841747

[TightEnd]

More terrible news, I don't know how we will survive....

'Bank of England sharply raises 2017 growth outlook'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38841747

this is a spectacular re-forecast

Bank says economy will grow by 2% in 2017. Previously 1.4%. Now predicting Brexit has little effect 2018 or 2019 (we won't be out until March 2019 of course, so still too early to know one way or the other but so far so good)

[Doobs]

^ i saw an analysis yesterday

labour MP constituencies, MPs who voted for A50 yesterday voted leave 66%

labour MP constituencies, MPs who voted against A50 yesterday, voted leave 39%

i could have checked every constituency in the 47 but think its correc tto say virtually all are remain areas

labour's problem is basically by number of voter the core base is hugely remain but these pile up in metropolitan safe seats eg London. By number of constituencies (heartlands, the north etc) the figure skews hugely to leave

so Corbyn has an impossible job reconciling the two bases, city v heartlands

Was just a few stood out.  Wales voted out and there must be 7 Welsh constituencies there.  Wakefield stood out, as did Newcastle under Lyme.  Nottingham a flip too?   It is nothing to do with sides, just got a good memory for numbers and pretty much my job is spotting errors.

I don't get the labour strategy.  The tory and labour votes were both about 60/40.  One was one way, one the other.  The tories haven't sat about worrying how to please the 40% remainers, nor should labour worry about their 40% who dissaprove.  As it is they just act in a half arsed disorganised manner, whilst spewing voters on both sides.  Right now open goals everywhere and Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbot are no doubt sat in a sound proof room congratulating themselves.

[redsimon]

Nottingham voted leave and 2/3 of our MPs voted against A50

[SuuPRlim]

Brexit might just be the most tilting thing in the world.

The damage from voting to leave has been done, and yes it was shit, and the upsides everyone voted for (save money + gg immigrants) aren't going to really happen. However all the damage now is coming from the debate about if we actually leave or not, and when, the economy can 100% survive in or out but it changes lots of things and not knowing if you're coming or going is causing trouble everywhere.  What's transpired from all this is that actually yeah it is a democracy and we (the public) get to vote on stuff, but actually a handful of lords and MP's can still just decide we're being silly and go against pubic wishes. 

The MP's who vote against article 50 on the grounds that "Most of my constituency voted remain so it would be letting them down to vote to envoke article 50" is complete and utter BS. You have a duty to the democratic system you represent to vote for article 50 as it was the public's decision. The time for everyone to vote was at the referendum, now it's done it's done. What about your constituents who voted leave, they will be feeling very let down.

I voted to stay, and I would absolutely love it if we somehow got to stay, however I'd hate it a lot more if I found out that UK democracy can be undone at the whims of lords and MPs, if we'd have remained then the leave group would not have had this chance to to revoke the decision, so it's very, very unfair - am I wrong or is the whole point of democracy that it's sposed to be fair?

Can we please just get the fuck out and give ourselves a chance to settle down, as it's the poorest people who get fucked the hardest by economic turmoil.

I'm usually economically optimistic but absolutely hating the state of everything right now, tilting my brains off everytime i hear about anything to do with politics, it's actually a shambles - ironically it is going halt immigration, as no-one is going to want to come here anymore, plumbers from Milton Keynes will be clinging onto the backs of lorries to get to Poland soon.

[Jon MW]

... am I wrong or is the whole point of democracy that it's sposed to be fair?
...

The point of democracy is that it's meant to be government by 'the people'.

'The people' are generally not going to be fair, or well informed, or in anyway logically reasonable - but I agree that if democracy is what is being aimed for then that is what we should get.

[neeko]

Let's have a series of referendums

Should we cut income tax?
Should VAT be lowered?
Should petrol duty be cut?
Should be have more bank holidays?
Should the NHS have more money?
Should class sizes in schools be smaller?
Should nursery care be free?
Should state pension be raised?

The results are easy to predict but impossible to action.

Representative democracy allows choices to be made by the voters MPs given conflicting options, it's not perfect but better than the other options.

[TightEnd]

Labour has taken the riskiest Brexit bet of all, says

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/02/labour-has-taken-riskiest-brexit-bet-all

[TightEnd]

The Economist looks ahead to the year 2030....

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21716043-dispatch-2030-how-slow-death-labour-might-happen?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/howtheslowdeathoflabourmighthappen

[Doobs]

Let's have a series of referendums

Should we cut income tax?
Should VAT be lowered?
Should petrol duty be cut?
Should be have more bank holidays?
Should the NHS have more money?
Should class sizes in schools be smaller?
Should nursery care be free?
Should state pension be raised?

The results are easy to predict but impossible to action.

Representative democracy allows choices to be made by the voters MPs given conflicting options, it's not perfect but better than the other options.

Neeko is right

Democracy is not the will of the people here, or even anywhere?  We have a parliamentary democracy, where we elect people to act in our interest.  Note they aren't going to do everything we want, because as neeko points out, if they did everythig we want we would be well and truly fucked.  So why is this so important and not doubling the wages of nurses, or bringing back hanging, or having teachers beating up our kids at school again?  There is no difference, we know these would all likely get a majority of any referendum too?

This lie seems to have permeated over the last year or so, that not only do we have to do this because the people want it, but that we even know what the people want.  People voted out for a whole bunch of reasons, whether it was for the extra NHS money, to cut down on immigrants or to avoid the European super army (This was the reason my mum gave), or just to give the Government a bloody nose.  The people couldn't possibly have voted for the situation we are going for, as we are only now seeing what that may be (the white paper has just been produced). 

And who knows what the "will of the people" is now?  We must have lost half a million people since the last vote (that will have been heavily pro brexit), and gained half a million voters (that will be heavily against).   By the time we leave, simple demographics are going to have pushed the will of the people much closer towards the actual coin flip it was already. 

But the "will of the people" is only that way because the people have been horriibly mislead.  If the people hadn't been lied to about the NHS and "the damage" immigrants do to it, etc by a bunch of public schoolboys, then that would likely to have been more than enough to swing the vote on its own.  Nobody explained to the people of Sunderland that it was effectively the rich in the South East that paid the EU payments, and that they were net beneficiaries of this EU "largesse" and so on.   But it is ok for these people to be "fucked hard" simply becase you don't understand the system we have lived under throughout our lifetimes?   

So we sit and watch people who we elect, talking about the damage this is going to cause our economy, but blindly voting for it, simply because of politics.  They aren't forced to follow this "will of the people", and they should be prepared to grow some  backbone, and tell the people how it is.  We shouldn't need Gina Miller and a bunch of judges to remind our MPS what their duties are.  They should all know this, as it must be pretty bloody clear to anybody who follows that path in life, well barring Ian Duncan Smith and Liam Fox. 

Anyway got stuff to do.  There is little hope of reversing this, whilst the opposition are so ineffective.


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-referendum-alternative-facts-brexit-bill-white-paper-european-union-a7558886.html