The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[titaniumbean]

do we think that changing our facebook profile pic is doing good for society? whilst staying totally uneducated on the region and letting self centred people with mainly economic ideologies make crushingly terrible decisions over and over is deemed progress?

I totally agree on the whole, dont 'use' this tragedy to advance personal beliefs/opinions, but we also need both sides to a debate put forward rather than just letting those with no shame spout their idiocy and stay quiet out of 'respect'. We saw after 9/11 that politicians will make appalling misjudged and reactionary decisions to please the media/voter base (who like the politicians generally have no clue what's going on but are SCARED) . if that happens again and we let it, is that better than speaking up at a time when we find it unpalatable?


if you haven't watched the vid and want some reasons to just do a mass bombing run on syria check it out.

[AlunB]

I've been a touch perturbed after the most recent Paris tragedy by the spate of "Oh this happened in Lebanon too". I'm sorry that people don't seem to understand that terrorist attacks in Western Europe are both unusual and important events that reflect much more with me than a bombing in Lebanon. I don't really understand why Angelina Jolie is getting praised for the post on instagram. I really believe human life is equally valuable but that doesn't mean people should be looked down upon from taking more from news that resonates with them, even if that is only because of the location. It's not even the subject matter, I would read more about a factory collapsing if it happened in England or Budapest than in China.

This is a real mess and I can't help feel that celebrating bombs being dropped on Raqqa is just pointless. It doesn't seem like much of a solution to me.

Had pretty much this exact same conversation with a friend. I had/have a similar view to you. I do think he was right in many ways though. It resonates more not just because we can put ourselves more easily in their shoes, but also because we (well most of us) don't immerse ourselves in international news and don't try and make those connections. Is it right that we care less about bombings in Lebanon than Paris? It's totally explicable and (I think) totally reasonable, but is it right?

What we both agreed on was that the ideal reaction* from this should be externally focused. Trying to learn more about what's going on in the world and trying to think more about the people for whom this is a daily occurrence. The fact that they are not unusual in Syria shouldn't make us less sympathetic it should make us more sympathetic.
 
Sorry if that was all a bit stream of consciousness

*from those not directly affected by it obviously, I'm not for one second telling someone how to grieve

[nirvana]

I've been a touch perturbed after the most recent Paris tragedy by the spate of "Oh this happened in Lebanon too". I'm sorry that people don't seem to understand that terrorist attacks in Western Europe are both unusual and important events that reflect much more with me than a bombing in Lebanon. I don't really understand why Angelina Jolie is getting praised for the post on instagram. I really believe human life is equally valuable but that doesn't mean people should be looked down upon from taking more from news that resonates with them, even if that is only because of the location. It's not even the subject matter, I would read more about a factory collapsing if it happened in England or Budapest than in China.

This is a real mess and I can't help feel that celebrating bombs being dropped on Raqqa is just pointless. It doesn't seem like much of a solution to me.

Not much to add to what others have said but yep, you're far from alone in feeling uncomfortable with this. I think it's because it doesn't make me aware of equally tragic events that I'm ignorant of, rather it feels like it trivialises all of these events by making it competitive.

It's like saying you shouldn't have campaigned against, say, Apartheid unless you protested every country with human rights issues.

[Doobs]

I've been a touch perturbed after the most recent Paris tragedy by the spate of "Oh this happened in Lebanon too". I'm sorry that people don't seem to understand that terrorist attacks in Western Europe are both unusual and important events that reflect much more with me than a bombing in Lebanon. I don't really understand why Angelina Jolie is getting praised for the post on instagram. I really believe human life is equally valuable but that doesn't mean people should be looked down upon from taking more from news that resonates with them, even if that is only because of the location. It's not even the subject matter, I would read more about a factory collapsing if it happened in England or Budapest than in China.

This is a real mess and I can't help feel that celebrating bombs being dropped on Raqqa is just pointless. It doesn't seem like much of a solution to me.

Not much to add to what others have said but yep, you're far from alone in feeling uncomfortable with this. I think it's because it doesn't make me aware of equally tragic events that I'm ignorant of, rather it feels like it trivialises all of these events by making it competitive.

It's like saying you shouldn't have campaigned against, say, Apartheid unless you protested every country with human rights issues.

Completely agree on this too.  The closer you are to an event the more it is going to affect you.  I am bound to be more affected by a family member/neighbour/close friend than what happened to somebody in Chile.  I know people in Paris, I have stayed in that area, I may even have eaten in those restaurants.  I got the bet you heard nothing about the Kenyan University attack one, I felt like replying well yes I had because I don't get my news from The Sun or Britain First, but thought better of it.

 You just can't possibly grieve as much for people far away as you do for those that are close.  You wouldn't be able to ever function because of all the shit that happens in the World.

[TightEnd]

setting foreign policy is quite tough for a pacifist, and trying to get it in tune with wider opinion both in the aprty and publically

Don't see that Hilary Benn and Corbyn agree on much really

Benn supports shoot to kill, Corbyn doesn't

Benn supports the bombing and killing of Jihadi John, Corbyn questions it

its almost as if JC lives in another world. of course no one wants shoot to kill, and mistakes like Menezes are very sad, but if an armed response officer comes across a suicide bomber armed with a kalashnikov in a public place what is he meant to do?

similarly, are we meant to walk into the middle of raqqa, knock on John's front door and ask him to come quietly?

last nights PLP sounds fun

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/16/jeremy-corbyn-attacked-by_n_8578184.html

[The Camel]

setting foreign policy is quite tough for a pacifist, and trying to get it in tune with wider opinion both in the aprty and publically

Don't see that Hilary Benn and Corbyn agree on much really

Benn supports shoot to kill, Corbyn doesn't

Benn supports the bombing and killing of Jihadi John, Corbyn questions it

its almost as if JC lives in another world. of course no one wants shoot to kill, and mistakes like Menezes are very sad, but if an armed response officer comes across a suicide bomber armed with a kalashnikov in a public place what is he meant to do?

similarly, are we meant to walk into the middle of raqqa, knock on John's front door and ask him to come quietly?

last nights PLP sounds fun

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/16/jeremy-corbyn-attacked-by_n_8578184.html

I find myself horribly conflicted.

I'm a pacifist and completely anti war. I believe every time an innocent man, like J-C d M, dies we have sunk to the level of Islamic State.

But if there's a situation when a couple of gunmen are spraying bullets into a terrified crowd, what are the police meant to do if not shoot to kill?

Islamic State obviously want a war. They want the Americans (who they will portray as the new "forces from Rome") to come and try claim the territory won to form the caliphate. This is all laid out in the Koran and will cause ever more, young, disaffected, outcast Muslims in the West to go out to join them.

Negotiating with them is pointless.

I cannot see a solution, because the more the West try and stamp them out, there will be multiples more to join them.

That article in The Atlantic summed it up nicely. This enemy is like fighting a war with followers of David Koresh or Jim Jones. But instead of a few hundred followers, IS has 8 million already.

[DungBeetle]

I've been a touch perturbed after the most recent Paris tragedy by the spate of "Oh this happened in Lebanon too". I'm sorry that people don't seem to understand that terrorist attacks in Western Europe are both unusual and important events that reflect much more with me than a bombing in Lebanon. I don't really understand why Angelina Jolie is getting praised for the post on instagram. I really believe human life is equally valuable but that doesn't mean people should be looked down upon from taking more from news that resonates with them, even if that is only because of the location. It's not even the subject matter, I would read more about a factory collapsing if it happened in England or Budapest than in China.

This is a real mess and I can't help feel that celebrating bombs being dropped on Raqqa is just pointless. It doesn't seem like much of a solution to me.

Not much to add to what others have said but yep, you're far from alone in feeling uncomfortable with this. I think it's because it doesn't make me aware of equally tragic events that I'm ignorant of, rather it feels like it trivialises all of these events by making it competitive.

It's like saying you shouldn't have campaigned against, say, Apartheid unless you protested every country with human rights issues.

This is the sort of mindset you are referring to.  Jeez.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/got-a-french-flag-on-your-facebook-profile-picture-congratulations-on-your-corporate-white-supremacy-a6736526.html

[DungBeetle]

Haven't seen his exact quotes, but if Corbyn is suggesting it is inappropriate to shoot  to kill an armed terrorist who is slaughtering people then that is surely the end of his credibility and career as leader of Labour.

[Woodsey]

Haven't seen his exact quotes, but if Corbyn is suggesting it is inappropriate to shoot  to kill an armed terrorist who is slaughtering people then that is surely the end of his credibility and career as leader of Labour.

Don't be saying shit like that, we need him there as long as possible 

[TightEnd]

Alastair Campbell ‏@campbellclaret now30 seconds ago

As May showed you cannot win a general election if behind on economy and leadership. Add security as a negative and it is rout time

[TightEnd]

Haven't seen his exact quotes, but if Corbyn is suggesting it is inappropriate to shoot  to kill an armed terrorist who is slaughtering people then that is surely the end of his credibility and career as leader of Labour.

the interview is in this article

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34840708

[DaveShoelace]

I want to support Corbyn, I really really do.

The manner in which the press has been purposely taking everything out of context that he does has meant that everything I see about him, I have to go searching for the full context/full interview etc, because it's now got to the point that everything we see is conservative spin.

I don't really agree with his policies, but I really respect the man, his honesty and his motives.

This shoot-to-kill thing might be the final nail in the coffin for me though. The nuclear deterant thing really worried me, this one seems even stupider. Not only is it a tremendously stupid stance, it is also a dangerous one. If our protectors can't shoot to kill, then the UK would be the number one target in Europe for this shit.

[RickBFA]

Surely even natural Corbyn supporters must realise that his position on shoot to kill policy is away with the fairies.

Just watched the interview and whilst everyone would agree stopping the situation arising would be ideal, Corbyn really does live in some alternative universe that has no relation to real life.

[TightEnd]

this gives a lot of background to Corbyn's views, his chairmanship of Stop the war etc etc

i too try to investigate for myself beyond the right wing press, but he keeps presenting them with open goals, handing them the ball and saying "there, put it in the net"

http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/why-is-anyone-surprised-by-jeremy-corbyns-foreign-policy-views/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[Jon MW]

Corbyn is a nice person - but he's a terrible leader; isn't a prerequisite of leadership doing what 'has' to be done rather than what 'should' be done?

Does anyone know how he fare's as an MP? It seems like he should be a good constituency MP but I don't think I've heard anything about it. I wonder if he'd be the sort of MP who'd happily let all the pig and cattle farms go out of business out of principle in his constituency rather than do anything to protect them was the kind of thing I'd think could get in the way of being a reasonably good constituency MP.