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Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2180314 times)
DungBeetle
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« Reply #1755 on: January 22, 2016, 02:24:51 PM »

Saw a very emotionally charged debate yesterday on the telly which surprised me just how angry it got, so I thought I'd make it my:

Question of the day:

Is it 'wrong' for a couple who are currently unemployed, on benefits and with no immediate job opportunities to decide to knowingly get pregnant and have a child with these future prospects?


Not sure there is a "right or wrong" at a personal level, but from a State's perspective whether it is desirable or not depends on the current demographic of the nation I suppose?

I'm thinking of a couple who currently have zero to 2 kids here.  I wouldn't deny anyone the opportunity of a family whatever their circumstances but obviously there gets to a point where I would be considering some people to be taking the p*ss if they wheel out a 10 man family unit with no earnings.




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« Reply #1756 on: January 22, 2016, 02:42:26 PM »

Saw a very emotionally charged debate yesterday on the telly which surprised me just how angry it got, so I thought I'd make it my:

Question of the day:

Is it 'wrong' for a couple who are currently unemployed, on benefits and with no immediate job opportunities to decide to knowingly get pregnant and have a child with these future prospects?

Up to them really, but I find it hard to believe any responsible person would want to, I know for a fact I wouldn't if I was in that spot...

Having no immediate job prospects is the ideal time to have children.  Absolute nightmare getting up half the night when you have to work the next day. 
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« Reply #1757 on: January 22, 2016, 03:22:31 PM »

some good lines in this one

"Celebrated academic and TV personality Lord Winston said he will be dead before the party returns to power.

In an interview with The House magazine, he attacked Labour's response to the junior doctors' strike and Mr Corbyn's attempts to try to overturn the party's pro-Trident policy.

And he said Labour peers feel so removed from the party's leftward drift that "we feel as if we are on the Maldives​".

On the doctors' strike, Lord Winston said: "I think the Labour Party is a shambles actually. I think the way we have handled this whole thing, as we do with many issues at the moment, is totally inadequate and I think we show appallingly poor leadership."

The 75-year-old added: "I will have been probably long gone before there is a Labour government now. We will not win the next election. So we are now looking at 2025…

"We are talking about Trident as if it matters. I mean where does Corbyn come from? What the hell is he thinking about?

"There isn’t any fundamental connection with any kind of intellectual argument there. Again and again it’s a mantra.

"Look, I have nothing against the man. I am sure he is an absolutely public-spirited, well-meaning, nice individual with all sorts of moral values that perhaps I don’t have.

But actually that’s not what you want from a politician. What you want actually is judgement, discernment, you want understanding and you actually want education.

You want someone who has actually got the tools to really dissect the argument effectively and I’m not convinced that our leadership has that unfortunately."

Lord Winston said he and his fellow Labour peers now feel "completely disconnected" from the party leadership.

He said: "We feel as if we are on the Maldives at the moment. We could be in the middle of the ocean somewhere."

https://www.politicshome.com/party-politics/articles/story/labour-shambles-and-has-already-lost-2020-election-says-tv-personality#sthash.avRRZ1KW.dpuf
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« Reply #1758 on: January 22, 2016, 03:23:27 PM »

now leaving aside his actual comments, they simply can't move forward as a credible elctoral force until and unless they start rowing in the same direction...

4 years 3 months to go to do it
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« Reply #1759 on: January 22, 2016, 03:32:46 PM »

"Many people watching Jeremy Corbyn’s interview on Marr last Sunday will have been shocked by his remarks about the need to begin a ‘dialogue’ with the leadership of the Islamic State. ‘I think there has to be some understanding of where their strong points are,’ he said.

Afterwards, when these comments were widely reported, Corbyn’s supporters said they’d been taken out of context — the standard defence whenever he is criticised for saying something positive about Islamist terrorists, such as describing Hamas and Hezbollah as his ‘friends’ or the death of bin Laden as a ‘tragedy’. But there are only so many times this excuse can be used to explain these apparently supportive remarks. It’s beginning to look as though the Labour leader really does sympathise with terrorists."

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/jeremy-corbyn-and-the-hard-left-are-wilfully-blind-to-the-evils-of-islamist-nazis/




someone can post up an article about cameron wanting to hang mandela for balance, if they wish
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« Reply #1760 on: January 22, 2016, 03:42:38 PM »

some good lines in this one

"Celebrated academic and TV personality Lord Winston said he will be dead before the party returns to power.

In an interview with The House magazine, he attacked Labour's response to the junior doctors' strike and Mr Corbyn's attempts to try to overturn the party's pro-Trident policy.

And he said Labour peers feel so removed from the party's leftward drift that "we feel as if we are on the Maldives​".

On the doctors' strike, Lord Winston said: "I think the Labour Party is a shambles actually. I think the way we have handled this whole thing, as we do with many issues at the moment, is totally inadequate and I think we show appallingly poor leadership."

The 75-year-old added: "I will have been probably long gone before there is a Labour government now. We will not win the next election. So we are now looking at 2025…

"We are talking about Trident as if it matters. I mean where does Corbyn come from? What the hell is he thinking about?

"There isn’t any fundamental connection with any kind of intellectual argument there. Again and again it’s a mantra.

"Look, I have nothing against the man. I am sure he is an absolutely public-spirited, well-meaning, nice individual with all sorts of moral values that perhaps I don’t have.

But actually that’s not what you want from a politician. What you want actually is judgement, discernment, you want understanding and you actually want education.

You want someone who has actually got the tools to really dissect the argument effectively and I’m not convinced that our leadership has that unfortunately."

Lord Winston said he and his fellow Labour peers now feel "completely disconnected" from the party leadership.

He said: "We feel as if we are on the Maldives at the moment. We could be in the middle of the ocean somewhere."

https://www.politicshome.com/party-politics/articles/story/labour-shambles-and-has-already-lost-2020-election-says-tv-personality#sthash.avRRZ1KW.dpuf

As an irrelevant (but I thought amusing) aside: my fiancee has met him.

It sounds like she came off quite well, particularly as she didn't really know who he was - even after he'd given his lecture; whereas the friend she went with was so starstruck by him that she forgot what degree she was doing when he asked her Cheesy
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« Reply #1761 on: January 22, 2016, 04:14:33 PM »

"Many people watching Jeremy Corbyn’s interview on Marr last Sunday will have been shocked by his remarks about the need to begin a ‘dialogue’ with the leadership of the Islamic State. ‘I think there has to be some understanding of where their strong points are,’ he said.

Afterwards, when these comments were widely reported, Corbyn’s supporters said they’d been taken out of context — the standard defence whenever he is criticised for saying something positive about Islamist terrorists, such as describing Hamas and Hezbollah as his ‘friends’ or the death of bin Laden as a ‘tragedy’. But there are only so many times this excuse can be used to explain these apparently supportive remarks. It’s beginning to look as though the Labour leader really does sympathise with terrorists."

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/jeremy-corbyn-and-the-hard-left-are-wilfully-blind-to-the-evils-of-islamist-nazis/




someone can post up an article about cameron wanting to hang mandela for balance, if they wish

Stopped reading as soon as I saw it was written by professional troll and total penis Toby Young. The thinking man's Katie Hopkins.
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« Reply #1762 on: January 22, 2016, 04:27:19 PM »

"Many people watching Jeremy Corbyn’s interview on Marr last Sunday will have been shocked by his remarks about the need to begin a ‘dialogue’ with the leadership of the Islamic State. ‘I think there has to be some understanding of where their strong points are,’ he said.

Afterwards, when these comments were widely reported, Corbyn’s supporters said they’d been taken out of context — the standard defence whenever he is criticised for saying something positive about Islamist terrorists, such as describing Hamas and Hezbollah as his ‘friends’ or the death of bin Laden as a ‘tragedy’. But there are only so many times this excuse can be used to explain these apparently supportive remarks. It’s beginning to look as though the Labour leader really does sympathise with terrorists."

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/jeremy-corbyn-and-the-hard-left-are-wilfully-blind-to-the-evils-of-islamist-nazis/




someone can post up an article about cameron wanting to hang mandela for balance, if they wish

Despite my better judgement I did actually read it. What a load of inane nonsense. Just so many factual holes and leaps of logic that are just absurd.

Decry ISIS for it's quite abhorrent actions not because a totally separate Islamic/Islamist group (who incidentally some people cheered on in the Arab spring) once had rather tenuous links to the Nazi party. I mean, come on! It's this kind of unsophisticated knee-jerk polemic that is making intelligent discourse so difficult in modern politics.

I repeat, I'm not a supporter of Corbyn and I find his tone regarding appeasement troubling at times, but this is just bollocks.
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« Reply #1763 on: January 22, 2016, 04:35:17 PM »

Is it 'wrong' for a couple who are currently unemployed, on benefits and with no immediate job opportunities to decide to knowingly get pregnant and have a child with these future prospects?

 Click to see full-size image.
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« Reply #1764 on: January 22, 2016, 05:11:05 PM »

Is it 'wrong' for a couple who are currently unemployed, on benefits and with no immediate job opportunities to decide to knowingly get pregnant and have a child with these future prospects?

 Click to see full-size image.



 knows how to handle his chopper.........
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« Reply #1765 on: January 22, 2016, 05:23:15 PM »

"Many people watching Jeremy Corbyn’s interview on Marr last Sunday will have been shocked by his remarks about the need to begin a ‘dialogue’ with the leadership of the Islamic State. ‘I think there has to be some understanding of where their strong points are,’ he said.

Afterwards, when these comments were widely reported, Corbyn’s supporters said they’d been taken out of context — the standard defence whenever he is criticised for saying something positive about Islamist terrorists, such as describing Hamas and Hezbollah as his ‘friends’ or the death of bin Laden as a ‘tragedy’. But there are only so many times this excuse can be used to explain these apparently supportive remarks. It’s beginning to look as though the Labour leader really does sympathise with terrorists."

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/jeremy-corbyn-and-the-hard-left-are-wilfully-blind-to-the-evils-of-islamist-nazis/




someone can post up an article about cameron wanting to hang mandela for balance, if they wish

Despite my better judgement I did actually read it. What a load of inane nonsense. Just so many factual holes and leaps of logic that are just absurd.

Decry ISIS for it's quite abhorrent actions not because a totally separate Islamic/Islamist group (who incidentally some people cheered on in the Arab spring) once had rather tenuous links to the Nazi party. I mean, come on! It's this kind of unsophisticated knee-jerk polemic that is making intelligent discourse so difficult in modern politics.

I repeat, I'm not a supporter of Corbyn and I find his tone regarding appeasement troubling at times, but this is just bollocks.

It was awful. The Nazi stuff I didn't know and in that respect I found it interesting, but it completely felt like he was half way through a piece on that and he had a deadline, so he just thought 'fuck it, lets add Corbyn to the mix in the most tenuous way possible, that'll do it.'

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« Reply #1766 on: January 22, 2016, 05:45:39 PM »

"Many people watching Jeremy Corbyn’s interview on Marr last Sunday will have been shocked by his remarks about the need to begin a ‘dialogue’ with the leadership of the Islamic State. ‘I think there has to be some understanding of where their strong points are,’ he said.

Afterwards, when these comments were widely reported, Corbyn’s supporters said they’d been taken out of context — the standard defence whenever he is criticised for saying something positive about Islamist terrorists, such as describing Hamas and Hezbollah as his ‘friends’ or the death of bin Laden as a ‘tragedy’. But there are only so many times this excuse can be used to explain these apparently supportive remarks. It’s beginning to look as though the Labour leader really does sympathise with terrorists."

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/jeremy-corbyn-and-the-hard-left-are-wilfully-blind-to-the-evils-of-islamist-nazis/




someone can post up an article about cameron wanting to hang mandela for balance, if they wish

Despite my better judgement I did actually read it. What a load of inane nonsense. Just so many factual holes and leaps of logic that are just absurd.

Decry ISIS for it's quite abhorrent actions not because a totally separate Islamic/Islamist group (who incidentally some people cheered on in the Arab spring) once had rather tenuous links to the Nazi party. I mean, come on! It's this kind of unsophisticated knee-jerk polemic that is making intelligent discourse so difficult in modern politics.

I repeat, I'm not a supporter of Corbyn and I find his tone regarding appeasement troubling at times, but this is just bollocks.

Fair enough.  But forget the author and you still get back to the quote:

"I think there has to be some understanding of where their strong points are"

There it is just like the shoot to kill nonsense yesterday.  How many times does he do it before we have to conclude that his natural position is to sympathise rather than condemn?
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« Reply #1767 on: January 22, 2016, 06:24:29 PM »

Yeah that's a fair point, and one that's worth discussing further.

I think another way of looking at it is he is saying there are always two sides to any story, always shades of grey and it's rarely the case that one side is evil and one side is good. Our experience in the middle east where the good guys become bad guys become good guys etc surely teaches us there is at least SOME merit in that.
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« Reply #1768 on: January 22, 2016, 06:25:23 PM »

I must admit it's very hard to see them as anything other than evil though
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« Reply #1769 on: January 22, 2016, 06:47:38 PM »

Yeah that's a fair point, and one that's worth discussing further.

I think another way of looking at it is he is saying there are always two sides to any story, always shades of grey and it's rarely the case that one side is evil and one side is good. Our experience in the middle east where the good guys become bad guys become good guys etc surely teaches us there is at least SOME merit in that.


Agree.  But to me that is not how Corbyn's comments come over.  The shoot to kill one was a good example.  The first answer to the question should have been "obviously".  But he was too quick to launch into his pacifist sympathetic views to give the initial answer.  He just constantly puts himself in holes. 
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