The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Woodsey]

My guess is that IDS had already decided he was going to find something in the budget to dramatically flounce out over, so he could go full bore on the Brexit campaign and line himself up for the top job if successful.

Cynical?

Maybe, but I'd be surprised if he went for the top job, he has zero chance. He was leader before and not very popular.

[TightEnd]

he and osborne don't get on, word is he wanted an exit for a while and found his cause

obviously pro brexit and pro-boris

here is an interesting blog as to why http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/iain-duncan-smith-has-resigned/

think you have to be cynical, though clearly osborne has misjudged the PIP issue badly

the letter is a corker, not quite geoffrey how but a good one

Click to see full-size image.

Click to see full-size image.

[Doobs]

i just get stunned by the hypocrisy of it. "champagne socialists" get pilloried yet corbyn's questionable history is brushed aside

i'll try and avoid the lols, but that was what i was heartily doing at the time. Apoliogies.


anyway the budget today. plenty of chance for the opposition to get stuck into Osborne who is on a sticky wicket.

What exactly is his history then?  Go on I'll bite. 

I bet it's nothing in comparison to cutting Corporation Tax from 28 to 17%

its all been done on here and i sense to re-hash it would be unneccessary. it was all done when you were posting under your former non de plume too, you responded to much of it

cutting corporation tax is good too, all other things being equal (which you will argue they aren't)

what i will say is that i listened to and read the speech of dan jarvis last week

now that is a man who if was labour leader would have a fighting chance of victory in 2020. very impressive indeed

I have no idea what you are on about.  Such a strange man. 

You are right of course I would argue that lowering corporation tax is not good.   Especially when we can't get companies to pay what they already owe, why should we be cutting the tax intake from others? 

My view is that high taxes are bad, but reducing them when the debt is so high is silly.   Taxation should be progressive. 

Dan Jarvis, lol.   Corporate Labour in the shape of the Blairites is dead, the Party membership won't allow it to return.   

Lowering corporation tax is a positive move. Of course it could increase the tax take.

It incentivises risk takers and job creation.

It makes the UK a more attractive place to base a business.

Even down to small businesses reducing taxes creates the environment for growth. I saw a lady on the news this week who ran a small business and wil now pay no business rates. She said the saving would be used to reinvest in the business and take on a new apprentice.

Lowering corporation tax like this whilst making cuts is an idiotic move.  Not only does it look terrible on the face of it, it is terrible in the long run.  You can find one person who says they are going to employ an apprentice, I am sure I can find others who are just going to upgrade their mercs.  This rush to the bottom in corporation tax is a big part of why we are suffering deficits and we have people at the top just getting wealthier and wealthier.   Needless to say in the SNP manifesto they intended to lower corporation tax to attract companies...  The end game is that everybody will be sat there with single figure corporation tax rates wondering why they have no more companies and their tax takes have fallen dramatically.  Good we are part of a European Union where we could stop this idiocy.

[DungBeetle]

You are overstating the impact Doobs.  Corporation tax is a relatively small source of Government income (less than 10 percent).  If reducing it stimulates the bigger revenue streams then it's a perfectly valid strategy. 

[kukushkin88]

My guess is that IDS had already decided he was going to find something in the budget to dramatically flounce out over, so he could go full bore on the Brexit campaign and line himself up for the top job if successful.

Cynical?

Government policy is devastating the lives of the most vulnerable people in our society. I'd suggest "dramatically flounce out" is a bit strong.

[nirvana]

i just get stunned by the hypocrisy of it. "champagne socialists" get pilloried yet corbyn's questionable history is brushed aside

i'll try and avoid the lols, but that was what i was heartily doing at the time. Apoliogies.


anyway the budget today. plenty of chance for the opposition to get stuck into Osborne who is on a sticky wicket.

What exactly is his history then?  Go on I'll bite. 

I bet it's nothing in comparison to cutting Corporation Tax from 28 to 17%

its all been done on here and i sense to re-hash it would be unneccessary. it was all done when you were posting under your former non de plume too, you responded to much of it

cutting corporation tax is good too, all other things being equal (which you will argue they aren't)

what i will say is that i listened to and read the speech of dan jarvis last week

now that is a man who if was labour leader would have a fighting chance of victory in 2020. very impressive indeed

I have no idea what you are on about.  Such a strange man. 

You are right of course I would argue that lowering corporation tax is not good.   Especially when we can't get companies to pay what they already owe, why should we be cutting the tax intake from others? 

My view is that high taxes are bad, but reducing them when the debt is so high is silly.   Taxation should be progressive. 

Dan Jarvis, lol.   Corporate Labour in the shape of the Blairites is dead, the Party membership won't allow it to return.   

Lowering corporation tax is a positive move. Of course it could increase the tax take.

It incentivises risk takers and job creation.

It makes the UK a more attractive place to base a business.

Even down to small businesses reducing taxes creates the environment for growth. I saw a lady on the news this week who ran a small business and wil now pay no business rates. She said the saving would be used to reinvest in the business and take on a new apprentice.

Lowering corporation tax like this whilst making cuts is an idiotic move.  Not only does it look terrible on the face of it, it is terrible in the long run.  You can find one person who says they are going to employ an apprentice, I am sure I can find others who are just going to upgrade their mercs.  This rush to the bottom in corporation tax is a big part of why we are suffering deficits and we have people at the top just getting wealthier and wealthier.   Needless to say in the SNP manifesto they intended to lower corporation tax to attract companies...  The end game is that everybody will be sat there with single figure corporation tax rates wondering why they have no more companies and their tax takes have fallen dramatically.  Good we are part of a European Union where we could stop this idiocy.

Yep, gotta take this ticket. No public company is remotely altruistic. They don't like employees - they reduce the amount management (can steal) and shareholders receive from the business - employees are a tolerable cost..just.

No public corporation would hire a single extra person in any kind of correlated way to tax rates. We should reject these shibboleths about job and wealth creation being borne of making rich people richer through lower tax.

Setting aside the class & wealth divide - as Doobs points out, it's just absurd to think that reducing tax is a good move at this time  

[DungBeetle]

You're missing the bigger picture.  Think about it like this - Governments round the world are advertising their countries as attractive places to do business via competitive tax, fair regulations and an educated workforce.  The more companies you attract the more your country benefits from increased economic activity and associated tax flows.  Wanting high corporation tax is short sighted although it might make people feel like some social injustice is being corrected in the short term (especially when it is relatively low sorce of a nations income in any case)

[nirvana]

Is it possible to find a major economy in Europe with more advantageous conditions/regulations for business at the expense of employees than here ?

Because we look at it from different perspectives I'd feel pretty sure you're missing the bigger picture. The bigger picture to me is not about global competition and attracting multi nationals to the UK.. in the areas of business where the economics make sense we already achieve that and we (the gen pop) benefit a little and tiny numbers benefit to, I think, an obscene degree.

The bigger picture to me is more around notions of fairness, security, integrity, health, equality etc

[PokerBroker]

Is it possible to find a major economy in Europe with more advantageous conditions/regulations for business at the expense of employees than here ?

Because we look at it from different perspectives I'd feel pretty sure you're missing the bigger picture. The bigger picture to me is not about global competition and attracting multi nationals to the UK.. in the areas of business where the economics make sense we already achieve that and we (the gen pop) benefit a little and tiny numbers benefit to, I think, an obscene degree.

The bigger picture to me is more around notions of fairness, security, integrity, health, equality etc

Good post. 

[DungBeetle]

Is it possible to find a major economy in Europe with more advantageous conditions/regulations for business at the expense of employees than here ?

Because we look at it from different perspectives I'd feel pretty sure you're missing the bigger picture. The bigger picture to me is not about global competition and attracting multi nationals to the UK.. in the areas of business where the economics make sense we already achieve that and we (the gen pop) benefit a little and tiny numbers benefit to, I think, an obscene degree.

The bigger picture to me is more around notions of fairness, security, integrity, health, equality etc

From using the word "obscene", your argument seems to be driven by resentment and the wish to redistribute whereas my opinion is that lower corporation tax benefits everyone.  We'll just need to agree to differ as it's the age old left v right divide and we're never going to agree. 

[TightEnd]

look at the first letter of each line and read down

Click to see full-size image.

[nirvana]

Is it possible to find a major economy in Europe with more advantageous conditions/regulations for business at the expense of employees than here ?

Because we look at it from different perspectives I'd feel pretty sure you're missing the bigger picture. The bigger picture to me is not about global competition and attracting multi nationals to the UK.. in the areas of business where the economics make sense we already achieve that and we (the gen pop) benefit a little and tiny numbers benefit to, I think, an obscene degree.

The bigger picture to me is more around notions of fairness, security, integrity, health, equality etc

From using the word "obscene", your argument seems to be driven by resentment and the wish to redistribute whereas my opinion is that lower corporation tax benefits everyone.  We'll just need to agree to differ as it's the age old left v right divide and we're never going to agree. 

You think I'm on the left - you make too many assumptions about people and it's a bit trite to dismiss a different view as based on resentment. Relatively speaking I'm quite wealthy and I don't begrudge any person their money on an individual basis. Obscene probably  an emotive descriptor but the extremes of distribution are excessive and can't be supported by any rational argument.

[DungBeetle]

Is it possible to find a major economy in Europe with more advantageous conditions/regulations for business at the expense of employees than here ?

Because we look at it from different perspectives I'd feel pretty sure you're missing the bigger picture. The bigger picture to me is not about global competition and attracting multi nationals to the UK.. in the areas of business where the economics make sense we already achieve that and we (the gen pop) benefit a little and tiny numbers benefit to, I think, an obscene degree.

The bigger picture to me is more around notions of fairness, security, integrity, health, equality etc

From using the word "obscene", your argument seems to be driven by resentment and the wish to redistribute whereas my opinion is that lower corporation tax benefits everyone.  We'll just need to agree to differ as it's the age old left v right divide and we're never going to agree. 

You think I'm on the left - you make too many assumptions about people and it's a bit trite to dismiss a different view as based on resentment. Relatively speaking I'm quite wealthy and I don't begrudge any person their money on an individual basis. Obscene probably  an emotive descriptor but the extremes of distribution are excessive and can't be supported by any rational argument.

My point is you object to something that boosts economic activity because you are angry at inequality.  That is a left wing trait.  In the grand scheme of things corporation tax isn't what you should be targeting if you want more equality.  You need to be looking at wealth taxes in my opinion.  Hitting corporates is short sighted.

[nirvana]

I don't want to keep replying but you keep saying things that aim to trivialise other peoples convictions by packaging them and labelling from an ideological perspective - being angry at inequality is a personal value not a left wing trait.

[DungBeetle]

I don't want to keep replying but you keep saying things that aim to trivialise other peoples convictions by packaging them and labelling from an ideological perspective - being angry at inequality is a personal value not a left wing trait.

I see.  Coming from the person who trivialised people with other views as "shibboleths" a few posts back.