The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Jon MW]

There must be a genetic factor too.

If you have two thick parents, you are much more likely to be thick yourself surely?

I wouldn't say that necessarily down to genetics though.  it comes back to circumstances.  It depends on how you weight intelligence as well.  

Also much depends on why the parents were "thick".

I'd say that f you have two loving parents who devote their time to you as a child and give you the best possible enviroment to learn in then there is a chance you can become much smarter than your genetics.  

If on the otherhand you have 2 parents who don't care and show no love etc then chances are you will struggle not just with intellect but with all manner of emotions as you get older.  

When I've studied things to do with intelligence the big problem is always down to definitions. The version I prefer is you can differentiate between being "clever" and being "intelligent"; "cleverness" being defined as how much you know, and "intelligence" being defined as how good your ability to learn is.

So you can be intelligent - you can learn things easily; but also not clever - because you've never bothered to try to learn anything.
Conversely you can be clever - you know lots of things; but not intelligent - because you spend a lot of time and effort studying.

You gain most of your intelligence genetically. My fiancee is studying biology at Imperial College in London and she tells me that researchers there estimate about 75% of IQ can be attributed to genetics. IQ doesn't exactly fit into my preferred definition - but it's a good indication, particularly when they've found a single gene can reduce your IQ by up to 10 points if it's faulty for example.

You could argue that intelligence could be related to being poor - there could be a higher chance of people being poor, because they have a long genetic history of low intelligence - hence their current position. But it might just be down to the class war.

Even without that though - it's the environment that damages people's chances from a poor background. However intelligent you are genetically, your chances of utilising that intelligence are much lower if you come from a poorer background because the probability of having the required support and encouragement to benefit from it are that much lower.

Going back to the original article - just because class and exam results are correlated, it's just too convincing that so is being thick and lack of exams.

(to be clear - that's a correlation, that means they're related. It doesn't mean that everyone without good exams is thick and everyone with them isn't - it means the probability of both is higher and it's a good indication)

[The Camel]

Find it increasingly ridiculous that leave voters are dismissed as thick yet we havent had a GE in years where the person who simply looked most like a prime minster didnt win.

That's really funny.

You have just contradicted your first statement with your second.

So people don't vote for the policies which they agree with. They vote for the man who can eat a bacon sandwich without looking silly.

You made my point for me. Thanks.

My point was all elections usually result for the wrong reason, the one time people show any passion they are dismissed as thick. The electorate as a whole are thick/ignorant to the reality, because experts only say what they do for self serving reasons.

You dont really have any points camel, you believe what you have been spoonfed, and because youve been told it, you believe anyone who doesnt believe what we were told is stupid or thick.

Yeah, we are fed up with those stupid experts feeding us with facts and details.

Trusting gut instinct, irrational fears and the way the wind is currently blowing is a far more reliable way to get the result you want in a plebiscite.

[Jon MW]

"So people don't vote for the policies which they agree with. They vote for the man who can eat a bacon sandwich without looking silly."

This is probably largely true - why is democracy meant to be such a good thing?

[kukushkin88]

Good stuff from JohnMW. We also clearly have in Britain a culture where being thick or the less authentic pretending to be thick, is an aspiration, you'll be more popular with your peers. It's essentially fashionable to be thick. I've never found anything similar in any other country, including the US, where we steal most of our other bad traits from.

[JohnCharver]

Find it increasingly ridiculous that leave voters are dismissed as thick yet we havent had a GE in years where the person who simply looked most like a prime minster didnt win.

That's really funny.

You have just contradicted your first statement with your second.

So people don't vote for the policies which they agree with. They vote for the man who can eat a bacon sandwich without looking silly.

You made my point for me. Thanks.

My point was all elections usually result for the wrong reason, the one time people show any passion they are dismissed as thick. The electorate as a whole are thick/ignorant to the reality, because experts only say what they do for self serving reasons.

You dont really have any points camel, you believe what you have been spoonfed, and because youve been told it, you believe anyone who doesnt believe what we were told is stupid or thick.

Yeah, we are fed up with those stupid experts feeding us with facts and details.

Trusting gut instinct, irrational fears and the way the wind is currently blowing is a far more reliable way to get the result you want in a plebiscite.

So called experts have already made up their mind, are speaking on someone behalf or are financially attached to their result.

LOL irrational fears, like paranoia? Same person whos spent the last 3 pages demeaning the leave supporters over a decision that has already happened.

[Jon MW]

Find it increasingly ridiculous that leave voters are dismissed as thick yet we havent had a GE in years where the person who simply looked most like a prime minster didnt win.

That's really funny.

You have just contradicted your first statement with your second.

So people don't vote for the policies which they agree with. They vote for the man who can eat a bacon sandwich without looking silly.

You made my point for me. Thanks.

My point was all elections usually result for the wrong reason, the one time people show any passion they are dismissed as thick. The electorate as a whole are thick/ignorant to the reality, because experts only say what they do for self serving reasons.

You dont really have any points camel, you believe what you have been spoonfed, and because youve been told it, you believe anyone who doesnt believe what we were told is stupid or thick.

Yeah, we are fed up with those stupid experts feeding us with facts and details.

Trusting gut instinct, irrational fears and the way the wind is currently blowing is a far more reliable way to get the result you want in a plebiscite.

So called experts have already made up their mind, are speaking on someone behalf or are financially attached to their result.

LOL irrational fears, like paranoia? Same person whos spent the last 3 pages demeaning the leave supporters over a decision that has already happened.

An expert is someone who has studied a subject more than most people, and often for their whole lives. They're people who know more about it than everyone else.

[The Camel]

"So people don't vote for the policies which they agree with. They vote for the man who can eat a bacon sandwich without looking silly."

This is probably largely true - why is democracy meant to be such a good thing?

I've got a degree in politics and follow the issues closely and I felt like I knew a fraction of the information needed to make a reasoned choice in the referendum.

But when every major political party, the IMF, the CBI, the BoE, every major trade union, every charity which expressed an opinion and every PLC in the FTSE 100 bar one all said it made sense for the UK to remain in the EU I believed them.

52% of my country (who were bothered to vote) didn't believe them.

So in answer to your question, a meritocracy would probably be far better than a democracy, but the majority think they know better.

[JohnCharver]

Find it increasingly ridiculous that leave voters are dismissed as thick yet we havent had a GE in years where the person who simply looked most like a prime minster didnt win.

That's really funny.

You have just contradicted your first statement with your second.

So people don't vote for the policies which they agree with. They vote for the man who can eat a bacon sandwich without looking silly.

You made my point for me. Thanks.

My point was all elections usually result for the wrong reason, the one time people show any passion they are dismissed as thick. The electorate as a whole are thick/ignorant to the reality, because experts only say what they do for self serving reasons.

You dont really have any points camel, you believe what you have been spoonfed, and because youve been told it, you believe anyone who doesnt believe what we were told is stupid or thick.

Yeah, we are fed up with those stupid experts feeding us with facts and details.

Trusting gut instinct, irrational fears and the way the wind is currently blowing is a far more reliable way to get the result you want in a plebiscite.

So called experts have already made up their mind, are speaking on someone behalf or are financially attached to their result.

LOL irrational fears, like paranoia? Same person whos spent the last 3 pages demeaning the leave supporters over a decision that has already happened.

An expert is someone who has studied a subject more than most people, and often for their whole lives. They're people who know more about it than everyone else.

If you study something you put your knowledge to good use. You realise theres money to be made in property for instance. You know that UK leaving the EU crushes your shares. Do you give a damn whether its better for the local plumber?

[The Camel]

Find it increasingly ridiculous that leave voters are dismissed as thick yet we havent had a GE in years where the person who simply looked most like a prime minster didnt win.

That's really funny.

You have just contradicted your first statement with your second.

So people don't vote for the policies which they agree with. They vote for the man who can eat a bacon sandwich without looking silly.

You made my point for me. Thanks.

My point was all elections usually result for the wrong reason, the one time people show any passion they are dismissed as thick. The electorate as a whole are thick/ignorant to the reality, because experts only say what they do for self serving reasons.

You dont really have any points camel, you believe what you have been spoonfed, and because youve been told it, you believe anyone who doesnt believe what we were told is stupid or thick.

Yeah, we are fed up with those stupid experts feeding us with facts and details.

Trusting gut instinct, irrational fears and the way the wind is currently blowing is a far more reliable way to get the result you want in a plebiscite.

So called experts have already made up their mind, are speaking on someone behalf or are financially attached to their result.

LOL irrational fears, like paranoia? Same person whos spent the last 3 pages demeaning the leave supporters over a decision that has already happened.

Irrational fears. Like the Sunderland electorate who voted to leave because they were afraid an immigrant would take their job.

The immigrant population in Sunderland is less than 3%.

The Nissan plant in Sunderland relies on EU funding and is likely to relocate once the UK leaves the EU. Losing more jobs than if every immigrant took a job from a UK worker in Sunderland.

I think that counts as an irrational fear.

[redsimon]

 Is knowledge knowing that a tomato is a fruit but wisdom knowing not to put it in the fruit salad?

[RED-DOG]

Is knowledge knowing that a tomato is a fruit but wisdom knowing not to put it in the fruit salad?

No. Knowledge is knowing when someone is trolling but wisdom is knowing not to argue with them.

[JohnCharver]

Find it increasingly ridiculous that leave voters are dismissed as thick yet we havent had a GE in years where the person who simply looked most like a prime minster didnt win.

That's really funny.

You have just contradicted your first statement with your second.

So people don't vote for the policies which they agree with. They vote for the man who can eat a bacon sandwich without looking silly.

You made my point for me. Thanks.

My point was all elections usually result for the wrong reason, the one time people show any passion they are dismissed as thick. The electorate as a whole are thick/ignorant to the reality, because experts only say what they do for self serving reasons.

You dont really have any points camel, you believe what you have been spoonfed, and because youve been told it, you believe anyone who doesnt believe what we were told is stupid or thick.

Yeah, we are fed up with those stupid experts feeding us with facts and details.

Trusting gut instinct, irrational fears and the way the wind is currently blowing is a far more reliable way to get the result you want in a plebiscite.

So called experts have already made up their mind, are speaking on someone behalf or are financially attached to their result.

LOL irrational fears, like paranoia? Same person whos spent the last 3 pages demeaning the leave supporters over a decision that has already happened.

Irrational fears. Like the Sunderland electorate who voted to leave because they were afraid an immigrant would take their job.

The immigrant population in Sunderland is less than 3%.

The Nissan plant in Sunderland relies on EU funding and is likely to relocate once the UK leaves the EU. Losing more jobs than if every immigrant took a job from a UK worker in Sunderland.

I think that counts as an irrational fear.

Do you not feel places like nissan cause resentment? If lets say most stuff is minimum wage and then theres nissan where everyones on 20K plus and beyond with real conditions and chance to improve, youve got nissan staff reasonably happy and the rest not associated with them resentful towards them. Think there are in some places a sad state of affairs where people would like to level people, even if its in the shit.

I work with people who have zero immigrant pressure on their individual jobs but they feel the pressure of having them in the workers pool. If you cant go anywhere as the markets swelled with eastern europeans in roles that may otherwise be open, it allows your employer to react according. Theres far more blame to be put at the door of employers then has currently been.

[The Camel]

Is knowledge knowing that a tomato is a fruit but wisdom knowing not to put it in the fruit salad?

No. Knowledge is knowing when someone is trolling but wisdom is knowing not to argue with them.

You troll me relentlessly despite me asking you politely on more than one occasion to ignore my posts.

I have no idea why I annoy you so much, but I am not going to change my outlook on life just to please you.

[RED-DOG]

Is knowledge knowing that a tomato is a fruit but wisdom knowing not to put it in the fruit salad?

No. Knowledge is knowing when someone is trolling but wisdom is knowing not to argue with them.

You troll me relentlessly despite me asking you politely on more than one occasion to ignore my posts.

I have no idea why I annoy you so much, but I am not going to change my outlook on life just to please you.

I don't know why you assume I was referring to you, but there's a simple solution, just ignore my posts.

[JohnCharver]

Is knowledge knowing that a tomato is a fruit but wisdom knowing not to put it in the fruit salad?

No. Knowledge is knowing when someone is trolling but wisdom is knowing not to argue with them.

You troll me relentlessly despite me asking you politely on more than one occasion to ignore my posts.

I have no idea why I annoy you so much, but I am not going to change my outlook on life just to please you.

I don't know why you assume I was referring to you, but there's a simple solution, just ignore my posts.

I thought you meant red simon was trolling, if I dont know who the troll is in the conversation, does that make it me?