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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2180687 times)
Woodsey
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« Reply #5460 on: July 27, 2016, 11:56:43 AM »

I think we can all probably agree that the sky hasn't actually fallen in. A mild recession is the consensus forecast for next year now.

 In the meantime I'm pretty sure the average European is probably more concerned with Governments ' collective inability to protect its citizens from being maimed and slaughtered rather than being over concerned about big business and economics. Of course if you're based in the no job zone of southern Europe then these economic factors might resonate more

Might just be my own timelines/personal biases etc etc, but I have noticed many of the very vocal remainers have been tremendously quiet since this horrific wave of terrorist attacks. Obviously it's very wrong to suggest that leaving the EU will prevent them on our shores, but I wager if the referendum had been next week instead, Leave would have won by a much bigger margin.

Agree, after the MP was murdered it tightend up the race after leave were starting to get a lead in the polls too.
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« Reply #5461 on: July 27, 2016, 12:01:42 PM »

I think we can all probably agree that the sky hasn't actually fallen in. A mild recession is the consensus forecast for next year now.

 In the meantime I'm pretty sure the average European is probably more concerned with Governments ' collective inability to protect its citizens from being maimed and slaughtered rather than being over concerned about big business and economics. Of course if you're based in the no job zone of southern Europe then these economic factors might resonate more

Might just be my own timelines/personal biases etc etc, but I have noticed many of the very vocal remainers have been tremendously quiet since this horrific wave of terrorist attacks. Obviously it's very wrong to suggest that leaving the EU will prevent them on our shores, but I wager if the referendum had been next week instead, Leave would have won by a much bigger margin.

Hadn't thought of that but quite likely I agree. Plenty of fear for leave to play to the cheap seats I'd think
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« Reply #5462 on: July 27, 2016, 12:17:33 PM »

I think we can all probably agree that the sky hasn't actually fallen in. A mild recession is the consensus forecast for next year now.

 In the meantime I'm pretty sure the average European is probably more concerned with Governments ' collective inability to protect its citizens from being maimed and slaughtered rather than being over concerned about big business and economics. Of course if you're based in the no job zone of southern Europe then these economic factors might resonate more

Might just be my own timelines/personal biases etc etc, but I have noticed many of the very vocal remainers have been tremendously quiet since this horrific wave of terrorist attacks. Obviously it's very wrong to suggest that leaving the EU will prevent them on our shores, but I wager if the referendum had been next week instead, Leave would have won by a much bigger margin.

Hadn't thought of that but quite likely I agree. Plenty of fear for leave to play to the cheap seats I'd think

I think people have just accepted it and moved on.  Going on and on about it isn't going to change the result.  It really is nothing to do with the terrorist attacks for me.  The economy and my own financial situation is just way more important than a really tiny chance I may get killed in a terrorist attack.  I have been through this before, but you are way more likely to get killed in a car and we still choose to drive etc.  In addition, we aren't keeping any more potential terrorists out than we would if we remained in the EU.   

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« Reply #5463 on: July 27, 2016, 12:55:25 PM »

Owen Smith's policy agenda shows how Corbyn has shifted Labour's internal debate dramatically leftwards.

 Click to see full-size image.


Anyone got a blankety blank cheque book and pen we can use?
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« Reply #5464 on: July 27, 2016, 01:23:07 PM »

I think we can all probably agree that the sky hasn't actually fallen in. A mild recession is the consensus forecast for next year now.

 In the meantime I'm pretty sure the average European is probably more concerned with Governments ' collective inability to protect its citizens from being maimed and slaughtered rather than being over concerned about big business and economics. Of course if you're based in the no job zone of southern Europe then these economic factors might resonate more

Might just be my own timelines/personal biases etc etc, but I have noticed many of the very vocal remainers have been tremendously quiet since this horrific wave of terrorist attacks. Obviously it's very wrong to suggest that leaving the EU will prevent them on our shores, but I wager if the referendum had been next week instead, Leave would have won by a much bigger margin.

Hadn't thought of that but quite likely I agree. Plenty of fear for leave to play to the cheap seats I'd think

I think people have just accepted it and moved on.  Going on and on about it isn't going to change the result.  It really is nothing to do with the terrorist attacks for me.  The economy and my own financial situation is just way more important than a really tiny chance I may get killed in a terrorist attack.  I have been through this before, but you are way more likely to get killed in a car and we still choose to drive etc.  In addition, we aren't keeping any more potential terrorists out than we would if we remained in the EU.   



Take yr ticket on all that of course but on a personal level..I'm avoiding big crowded places but not fretting about  the finances of the country or my own. So one thing has changed my outlook a little and the other hasn't .
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Jon MW
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« Reply #5465 on: July 27, 2016, 01:34:37 PM »

Owen Smith's policy agenda shows how Corbyn has shifted Labour's internal debate dramatically leftwards.

 Click to see full-size image.


Anyone got a blankety blank cheque book and pen we can use?


my second thought was that this is sounding really expensive - my first thought was related to the first point;

"A pledge to focus on equality of outcome, not equality of opportunity"

It reminds me of a novel I read a while ago which was a whodunnit - but set in a future Europe where any form of discrimination was banned, including discrimination based on competence.  That kind of pledge by a government in power would get that a step closer Cheesy
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« Reply #5466 on: July 27, 2016, 01:43:56 PM »

Owen Smith's policy agenda shows how Corbyn has shifted Labour's internal debate dramatically leftwards.

 Click to see full-size image.


Anyone got a blankety blank cheque book and pen we can use?


What is the point in replacing Corbyn with Corbyn?
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« Reply #5467 on: July 27, 2016, 01:46:30 PM »

I think it's nonsense to talk about equality of outcome but we could talk about quality of outcome ahead of equality of opportunity. Ie. What is actually being achieved rather than what have we done to notionally make achievements in 30, 40, 50 years time

Equality of opportunity seems like a pretty trite phrase to me to put a gloss on the fact that not much happens to address the needs of very disadvantaged people.
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nirvana
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« Reply #5468 on: July 27, 2016, 01:49:05 PM »

Owen Smith's policy agenda shows how Corbyn has shifted Labour's internal debate dramatically leftwards.

 Click to see full-size image.


Anyone got a blankety blank cheque book and pen we can use?


What is the point in replacing Corbyn with Corbyn?

Agreed. At least the real slim shady would get rid of trident too
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« Reply #5469 on: July 27, 2016, 01:51:16 PM »

Owen Smith's policy agenda shows how Corbyn has shifted Labour's internal debate dramatically leftwards.

 Click to see full-size image.


Anyone got a blankety blank cheque book and pen we can use?


Jesus.

What does 20 even mean?  You clearly can't solve it that way.  Does he think power companies are deliberately inefficient?  Does this mean efficient gas is now more preferable to inefficient solar?

And what is 17 about?  Is this extra investment we can't afford or just normal government investment in hospitals, schools etc.  Right now it just looks like random words strung together that sound good, but mean nothing.

Otherwise, it seems like his list is upside down.  Much of the stuff I can agree on is near the bottom.  Things like 4% real on the NHS, in an ideal world with bottomless money everybody could get behind, but just seems crazy when we are struggling to get anywhere near a balance between Government spending and income.



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« Reply #5470 on: July 27, 2016, 01:54:22 PM »

Owen Smith's policy agenda shows how Corbyn has shifted Labour's internal debate dramatically leftwards.

 Click to see full-size image.


Anyone got a blankety blank cheque book and pen we can use?


Jesus.

What does 20 even mean?  You clearly can't solve it that way.  Does he think power companies are deliberately inefficient?  Does this mean efficient gas is now more preferable to inefficient solar?

And what is 17 about?  Is this extra investment we can't afford or just normal government investment in hospitals, schools etc.  Right now it just looks like random words strung together that sound good, but mean nothing.

Otherwise, it seems like his list is upside down.  Much of the stuff I can agree on is near the bottom.  Things like 4% real on the NHS, in an ideal world with bottomless money everybody could get behind, but just seems crazy when we are struggling to get anywhere near a balance between Government spending and income.





Lol..sums the man up pretty well. 20 was a tour de force

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Woodsey
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« Reply #5471 on: July 27, 2016, 03:07:19 PM »

Tighty you missed some good news  Wink

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36901027
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TightEnd
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« Reply #5472 on: July 27, 2016, 03:26:48 PM »

Tighty you missed some good news  Wink

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36901027

had missed it, good news.

wouldn't have missed it if it was bad news! :-)
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« Reply #5473 on: July 27, 2016, 03:55:08 PM »


re sports direct blog "the majority of jobs went to east European workers".   Surely they wouldn't have had a vote?  So what is he saying - people voted Brexit because Eastern Europeans were stealing their shitty jobs?  

Wouldnt the attitude be if eastern europeans didnt accept this shit (because they are treated similar worse in poland for a fraction of the pay) by not being here, sport direct would have to offer proper conditions or not have staff. The fact employers act this way is they think they can replace their staff at will, its an employers market. Reduce the labour pool and people are forced to compete for staff with terms and conditions as they arent as readily replaceable. Ofcourse alot of these beliefs are drven by people who turn up to the jobcentre key in 20 quid an hour labouring jobs.

but he says

Why should gloomy forecasts of a Brexit future worry you when you don’t even know if you’ll get paid next week?

If Sports Directs Labour practices are widespread, then he might have a point, but the people who he uses as an example in the main didn't vote.

The people who jobs they are 'stealing' though did....

You can speculate about that, but it's not what he says in the article.

No speculation required, here is the result in that constituency, 70% leave....

http://election.news.sky.com/referendum/bolsover-2727

For the 3rd time in his article he says that people who couldn't vote were voting out because they were being exploited.

I was referring to your comment...


re sports direct blog "the majority of jobs went to east European workers".   Surely they wouldn't have had a vote?  'So what is he saying - people voted Brexit because Eastern Europeans were stealing their shitty jobs?'

Yes they probably were...

A new employer opened a new business (the wareshouse) in town.  He effectively employed more immigrants than locals (his agents did, but I don't want to contemplicate it and it is pretty irrelevant).  Before the warehouse opened nobody that lived there had shitty jobs at this warehouse.  It seems to me that lots of locals were given shitty jobs they didn't have before.  How have the immigrants stolen people's shitty jobs?

An unknown amount of warehouse workers voted for brexit.  Tens of thousands of other people voted for brexit in that constituency.  It isn't clear how shitty all these people's jobs were, or even if they had one.  It isn't clear how many had ever even applied to, or would even want to, work at this warehouse.

I would say it is pretty likely that only a very small proportion of the brexiters in that constituency could be described as having had their jobs stolen by immigrants.

Not defending Sports Direct at all here. 

Because I know the area and don't live that far from it, it's an ex coal mining community with a lot of unemployment (Dennis Skinner's constituency). So yes I would rather British citizens have those jobs first and be off benefits. Every job not given to a British citizen is effectively a job 'stolen' if you wish to use that word.

I have no issue with immigration per se, never have and never will, but British citizens should gets those jobs first and immigrants can fill the shortfall. I accept people have different opinions on this but I will never change my mind specifically when talking about low value immigration who don't pay that much tax. A British person getting off benefits and paying a bit of tax in an area of high unemployment is better financially for the UK than an immigrant getting the job and paying a bit of tax.

This is all true but you miss the big case of the leak from the UK economy of their savings being shipped back home to be spent aboard rather than in this country on goods and services.
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« Reply #5474 on: July 27, 2016, 04:02:52 PM »


re sports direct blog "the majority of jobs went to east European workers".   Surely they wouldn't have had a vote?  So what is he saying - people voted Brexit because Eastern Europeans were stealing their shitty jobs?  

Wouldnt the attitude be if eastern europeans didnt accept this shit (because they are treated similar worse in poland for a fraction of the pay) by not being here, sport direct would have to offer proper conditions or not have staff. The fact employers act this way is they think they can replace their staff at will, its an employers market. Reduce the labour pool and people are forced to compete for staff with terms and conditions as they arent as readily replaceable. Ofcourse alot of these beliefs are drven by people who turn up to the jobcentre key in 20 quid an hour labouring jobs.

but he says

Why should gloomy forecasts of a Brexit future worry you when you don’t even know if you’ll get paid next week?

If Sports Directs Labour practices are widespread, then he might have a point, but the people who he uses as an example in the main didn't vote.

The people who jobs they are 'stealing' though did....

You can speculate about that, but it's not what he says in the article.

No speculation required, here is the result in that constituency, 70% leave....

http://election.news.sky.com/referendum/bolsover-2727

For the 3rd time in his article he says that people who couldn't vote were voting out because they were being exploited.

I was referring to your comment...


re sports direct blog "the majority of jobs went to east European workers".   Surely they wouldn't have had a vote?  'So what is he saying - people voted Brexit because Eastern Europeans were stealing their shitty jobs?'

Yes they probably were...

A new employer opened a new business (the wareshouse) in town.  He effectively employed more immigrants than locals (his agents did, but I don't want to contemplicate it and it is pretty irrelevant).  Before the warehouse opened nobody that lived there had shitty jobs at this warehouse.  It seems to me that lots of locals were given shitty jobs they didn't have before.  How have the immigrants stolen people's shitty jobs?

An unknown amount of warehouse workers voted for brexit.  Tens of thousands of other people voted for brexit in that constituency.  It isn't clear how shitty all these people's jobs were, or even if they had one.  It isn't clear how many had ever even applied to, or would even want to, work at this warehouse.

I would say it is pretty likely that only a very small proportion of the brexiters in that constituency could be described as having had their jobs stolen by immigrants.

Not defending Sports Direct at all here.  

Because I know the area and don't live that far from it, it's an ex coal mining community with a lot of unemployment (Dennis Skinner's constituency). So yes I would rather British citizens have those jobs first and be off benefits. Every job not given to a British citizen is effectively a job 'stolen' if you wish to use that word.

I have no issue with immigration per se, never have and never will, but British citizens should gets those jobs first and immigrants can fill the shortfall. I accept people have different opinions on this but I will never change my mind specifically when talking about low value immigration who don't pay that much tax. A British person getting off benefits and paying a bit of tax in an area of high unemployment is better financially for the UK than an immigrant getting the job and paying a bit of tax.

This is all true but you miss the big case of the leak from the UK economy of their savings being shipped back home to be spent aboard rather than in this country on goods and services.

[     ] big leak

[  X  ] minor downward pressure on currency

Schoolboy error.  

Workers are paid in pounds not zlotys, florins or euros, therefore the pounds are exchanged for foreign currency either in the UK or in the home country of the worker.  The pounds must still be used to buy goods and services in Britain or invested.

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