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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2180920 times)
arbboy
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« Reply #10080 on: June 13, 2017, 10:02:30 PM »

The education level part is probably skewed by older voters not going to uni in the same percentages as the young.

Yep, anyone who thinks that education level is some sort of damning statistic when it comes to political leanings is misguided. Too many people go to Uni these days and half the courses are totally useless. It would have meant something 30 years ago before D students would go to Rotherham University to study Gender Studies.

I'd like to see the stats for amount of tax paid.

Half the courses are totally useless?
I see this thrown around a lot and agree  certainly there are some that are not worthwhile and some less than stellar universities.

Seems a bit unfair to say half though..

I searched around a bit to see what the most popular courses are, and it seems that law, business, computing, medicine are most popular subjects still.



My 'half' stat is not grounded in anything specific, but a great deal of University courses are the Humanties which really are useless unless you become a Humanties teacher. More importantly, there are approximately 6 graduates for every graduate level job, so most people are going to come out of Uni bitterly disappointed.

If it's not grounded on anything stop pulling numbers out of thin air to try and make a point.

Humanities which I assume you mean history/geography type subjects are a tiny proportion of degrees taken. They were not even in the top 10 courses.  
Like I said I looked around and the most popular degrees are still business, computing etc etc

I don't disagree that there are far to many grads for the number of jobs going. It's a massive issue for a lot of people who have been sold/pushed down the university route.

Think I said earlier in the thread even as someone pro university I think it was widened too much and would like to see investment  in non university routes for young people because it's the only option they seem to have/pushed down.

Where the degree comes from I agree I think this is the bigger issue actually, not what's studied. If you get a history degree from Oxbridge the world's your oyster.

Those that go to top universities have a much more rigourous challenge than some of the newer ones (obviously) employers know this. Even if you do a 'worthwhile' subject at one or these, it's very tough to compete.



Why don't kids do their own due diligence, like any normal person would, prior to investing circa £50-£100k of money into a long term investment project and work out if the degree they are doing at the uni they are going to attend is likely to generate sufficient rewards to justify the investment?  They can learn about supply/demand in the labour market and whether they are operating in an over supplied area or not?  Might teach them some lessons for the real world as well rather than just moaning when they come out of uni skint having studied a subject at a uni that has no demand in the real world?
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« Reply #10081 on: June 13, 2017, 10:16:38 PM »

The tories primary goal is to win elections and be in power, hence it was called when they were 15% ahead, they are now 3% behind, no chance they will call one now. They will just hang on until too many by-elections go the wrong way.

The best the tories can hope for is to stay in power and hope something comes up which means they can win the next one.

Every parties primary goal is to win elections and be in power....

I have never been sure that Jeremy Corbyn shares that view.

I am not sure Corbyn thinks he lost and his supporters are absolutely cocksure they have won. 

I wrote something about this other day in one of my lefty sites I will post here later but this is so important for the left to address.

The main point to my post was that they say a week is a long time in politics, which it jolly well is as anyone who followed the election will know it seemed that even this time last week the Tories were still surging towards a coronation and the chat was of how big the margin was going to be many well "respected" hacks and bloggers were saying 50 + majority, by correlation Labour were slipping to ignominious defeat.

Just as quick as fortunes turned for the Tories, Corbyn his merry men, supporters and even the centre left of his party are basking in glory and you would think they had won the election not found themselves 50 seats behind the worst tory campaign in history.  Now is a time for serious reflection.  But there hasn't been on bit of it because Labour and their supporters are already factoring in the seats won by Plaid, Greens, SNP and Sinn Fein as somesort of rainbow coalition.   Because the coalition they have fashioned under their own banner, public sector workers, metropolitan liberals, ethnic minorities, and students simply lacks the juice to deliver.

What seems to have been overlooked by Labour powerbrokers is that Labour despite winning in University towns up and down England and winning over places like Kensington the Tories made inroads into former Labour heartlands and winning over former mining towns.  Its baffling, but nothing much has been said about it.

The thing is while the Tories can be absolutely certain of regaining the posh seats they lost on Thursday once the insanity that engulfed their leadership settles, Labour, with or without Corbyn, would be wise to rely on former working class areas not returning to the fold.

May has said she intends to lead for the full term, I don't think that is ever going to happen.  5 weeks is more probable than 5 years simply because she has very few friends in politics.  She has always come across as a single minded woman and "bloody difficult" but even as Home Secretary she had very few allies and as we know she basically sidelined her whole cabinet in producing the manifesto instead she took relied on her two aides who have now quit.  Leapords dont change their spots.  She will be marginalised pretty soon as soon as brexit negotiations get underway and if she has the temerity to negotiate herself there is guaranteed to be briefings off record blaming her when things dont work out well.  Davies is slipperry enough to make the manouveres behind her back and will probably set it up for Boris to come in and fail terribly.  

I think the cracks first started appearing when May and Phillip appeared on The One Show he seemed the more relaxed one and she the professional politician looked visably scared.  I'd hate to name her condition, but I'd bet she is on the spectrum.  She genuinley seemed to think a few days ago that it was going to be business as usual and even the supporters they have wheeled out in front of the media they have reiterated the mantra of "strong and stable" when it is very clearly not.  

If Labour and the wider Left learn anything from this campaign the SNP also have to step up to the table and re-evaluate their game plan.  It is argued that Sturgeon is a bit like May in that she has surounded herself with key soldiers who are central belt and don't get the outsiders where they lost key ground to the tories even in despite of the pan-unionist alliance we say playout in Scotland.

Surely byelections will stop any chance of a full term?  Conservatives seem to be the ageing party, so presumably they will start reverting to mean and should be more likely to die?  

I really don't see how the progressive coilition holds either.  Too many parties wanting some of their own policies.  Conservatives and DUP are interchangeable at the more conservative end and still seem to be struggling to get an agreement* and surely Sinn Fein are likely no-shows.  

* surely a master negotiator like May could have had this settled by now.

It's going to depend where the by-elections are, I would agree the Shinners are no shows but I have seen some on the left actually believe that they will reverse their position on abstention soon simply because of the DUP involvement.  I don't see it myself, but there are also "dissident" Republicans making these noises in an effort to get one over the shinners.
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buffyslayer1
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« Reply #10082 on: June 13, 2017, 10:22:39 PM »

The education level part is probably skewed by older voters not going to uni in the same percentages as the young.

Yep, anyone who thinks that education level is some sort of damning statistic when it comes to political leanings is misguided. Too many people go to Uni these days and half the courses are totally useless. It would have meant something 30 years ago before D students would go to Rotherham University to study Gender Studies.

I'd like to see the stats for amount of tax paid.

Half the courses are totally useless?
I see this thrown around a lot and agree  certainly there are some that are not worthwhile and some less than stellar universities.

Seems a bit unfair to say half though..

I searched around a bit to see what the most popular courses are, and it seems that law, business, computing, medicine are most popular subjects still.



My 'half' stat is not grounded in anything specific, but a great deal of University courses are the Humanties which really are useless unless you become a Humanties teacher. More importantly, there are approximately 6 graduates for every graduate level job, so most people are going to come out of Uni bitterly disappointed.

If it's not grounded on anything stop pulling numbers out of thin air to try and make a point.

Humanities which I assume you mean history/geography type subjects are a tiny proportion of degrees taken. They were not even in the top 10 courses.  
Like I said I looked around and the most popular degrees are still business, computing etc etc

I don't disagree that there are far to many grads for the number of jobs going. It's a massive issue for a lot of people who have been sold/pushed down the university route.

Think I said earlier in the thread even as someone pro university I think it was widened too much and would like to see investment  in non university routes for young people because it's the only option they seem to have/pushed down.

Where the degree comes from I agree I think this is the bigger issue actually, not what's studied. If you get a history degree from Oxbridge the world's your oyster.

Those that go to top universities have a much more rigourous challenge than some of the newer ones (obviously) employers know this. Even if you do a 'worthwhile' subject at one or these, it's very tough to compete.



Why don't kids do their own due diligence, like any normal person would, prior to investing circa £50-£100k of money into a long term investment project and work out if the degree they are doing at the uni they are going to attend is likely to generate sufficient rewards to justify the investment?  They can learn about supply/demand in the labour market and whether they are operating in an over supplied area or not?  Might teach them some lessons for the real world as well rather than just moaning when they come out of uni skint having studied a subject at a uni that has no demand in the real world?

Well your probably right on that regarding resesrch.
That said markets do change, I recall when i went to uni there was a massive demand for accountants and by the time we had finished demand had dropped a lot and on top of it a influx of people doing accountancy due to Blair increasing higher ed and it being a needed skill. Then found the employment market was quite tough.

However it's constantly pushed down there throats that it's the only option and sold to them as the only life path. It kind of has become due to lack of invesment in other areas. It's just wrong that entire generations are being pushed down this route because it's the done thing.
 At 18 it's quite hard to make objective life defining decisions like that without sounding patronising you are still growing up. You tend to listen to teachers, careers advisors and parents at that age and trust their judgement.

That's where we went wrong.

Fwiw not sure they are moaning either about it they just get on with it as a fact of life as nearly everyone who graduates is in the same boat.
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Woodsey
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« Reply #10083 on: June 13, 2017, 10:23:12 PM »

for those who haven't seen it, this is not a parody account 


https://www.instagram.com/jacob_rees_mogg/



"We shall have to take our business elsewhere"
 Click to see full-size image.


"Buying a cake at Priston Fete"

 Click to see full-size image.


Awesome authentic guy with a political talent towering anything else available, general public will never accept him though, too Tory, too posh and too rich....
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JohnCharver
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« Reply #10084 on: June 13, 2017, 10:36:26 PM »

The education level part is probably skewed by older voters not going to uni in the same percentages as the young.

Yep, anyone who thinks that education level is some sort of damning statistic when it comes to political leanings is misguided. Too many people go to Uni these days and half the courses are totally useless. It would have meant something 30 years ago before D students would go to Rotherham University to study Gender Studies.

I'd like to see the stats for amount of tax paid.

Half the courses are totally useless?
I see this thrown around a lot and agree  certainly there are some that are not worthwhile and some less than stellar universities.

Seems a bit unfair to say half though..

I searched around a bit to see what the most popular courses are, and it seems that law, business, computing, medicine are most popular subjects still.



My 'half' stat is not grounded in anything specific, but a great deal of University courses are the Humanties which really are useless unless you become a Humanties teacher. More importantly, there are approximately 6 graduates for every graduate level job, so most people are going to come out of Uni bitterly disappointed.

If it's not grounded on anything stop pulling numbers out of thin air to try and make a point.

Humanities which I assume you mean history/geography type subjects are a tiny proportion of degrees taken. They were not even in the top 10 courses.  
Like I said I looked around and the most popular degrees are still business, computing etc etc

I don't disagree that there are far to many grads for the number of jobs going. It's a massive issue for a lot of people who have been sold/pushed down the university route.

Think I said earlier in the thread even as someone pro university I think it was widened too much and would like to see investment  in non university routes for young people because it's the only option they seem to have/pushed down.

Where the degree comes from I agree I think this is the bigger issue actually, not what's studied. If you get a history degree from Oxbridge the world's your oyster.

Those that go to top universities have a much more rigourous challenge than some of the newer ones (obviously) employers know this. Even if you do a 'worthwhile' subject at one or these, it's very tough to compete.



Why don't kids do their own due diligence, like any normal person would, prior to investing circa £50-£100k of money into a long term investment project and work out if the degree they are doing at the uni they are going to attend is likely to generate sufficient rewards to justify the investment?  They can learn about supply/demand in the labour market and whether they are operating in an over supplied area or not?  Might teach them some lessons for the real world as well rather than just moaning when they come out of uni skint having studied a subject at a uni that has no demand in the real world?

Well your probably right on that regarding resesrch.
That said markets do change, I recall when i went to uni there was a massive demand for accountants and by the time we had finished demand had dropped a lot and on top of it a influx of people doing accountancy due to Blair increasing higher ed and it being a needed skill. Then found the employment market was quite tough.

However it's constantly pushed down there throats that it's the only option and sold to them as the only life path. It kind of has become due to lack of invesment in other areas. It's just wrong that entire generations are being pushed down this route because it's the done thing.
 At 18 it's quite hard to make objective life defining decisions like that without sounding patronising you are still growing up. You tend to listen to teachers, careers advisors and parents at that age and trust their judgement.

That's where we went wrong.

Fwiw not sure they are moaning either about it they just get on with it as a fact of life as nearly everyone who graduates is in the same boat.

bedtime, I agree with woodsey.

Think if I was advising kid from experience it would be to do a degree where the jobs on the tin, so you have every idea what youll be at the end. Most end up doing their best or favourite subject or being advised by people with michael mouse degrees like teachers.
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neeko
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« Reply #10085 on: June 13, 2017, 10:42:45 PM »

Diane Abbot quit the campaign because of type 2 diabeties, Teressa May has type 1 diabetes.

I don't imagine a general election campaign is a stress free time, but very impressive they are so successful.

It is https://www.diabetes.org.uk/Get_involved/Diabetes-Week/ this week, so a good time to know more about the disease.
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« Reply #10086 on: June 13, 2017, 10:44:01 PM »

I see from the news that JC was given a one minute standing ovation from his Labour colleagues in Parliament today, many of whom wanted him out last year saying he wasn't fit for purpose.

Nice to know we can add hypocrisy to the list of Labour MPs qualities that will make things better for us all...... Wink
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arbboy
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« Reply #10087 on: June 13, 2017, 10:48:31 PM »

I see from the news that JC was given a one minute standing ovation from his Labour colleagues in Parliament today, many of whom wanted him out last year saying he wasn't fit for purpose.

Nice to know we can add hypocrisy to the list of Labour MPs qualities that will make things better for us all...... Wink

Most of them talking through their wallet for still being on the gravy train and not at the job centre.
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The Camel
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« Reply #10088 on: June 13, 2017, 10:51:01 PM »

I see from the news that JC was given a one minute standing ovation from his Labour colleagues in Parliament today, many of whom wanted him out last year saying he wasn't fit for purpose.

Nice to know we can add hypocrisy to the list of Labour MPs qualities that will make things better for us all...... Wink

Why is someone admitting they were wrong hypocrisy?

If Theresa May had admitted she was wrong over fox hunting, dementia tax and hard Brexit she might have woin a majority.
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« Reply #10089 on: June 13, 2017, 11:00:25 PM »

I see from the news that JC was given a one minute standing ovation from his Labour colleagues in Parliament today, many of whom wanted him out last year saying he wasn't fit for purpose.

Nice to know we can add hypocrisy to the list of Labour MPs qualities that will make things better for us all...... Wink

Why is someone admitting they were wrong hypocrisy?

If Theresa May had admitted she was wrong over fox hunting, dementia tax and hard Brexit she might have woin a majority.


There are lots not admitting anything.

But they aren't necessarily wrong the ones who don't think he's fit to lead.  Shameless, self preserved yes but Labour never won anything they are still 50 seats behind.
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« Reply #10090 on: June 13, 2017, 11:02:31 PM »

for those who haven't seen it, this is not a parody account 


https://www.instagram.com/jacob_rees_mogg/



"We shall have to take our business elsewhere"
 Click to see full-size image.


"Buying a cake at Priston Fete"

 Click to see full-size image.


Awesome authentic guy with a political talent towering anything else available, general public will never accept him though, too Tory, too posh and too rich....

Pretty shocking that he would pose for a family photo underneath such an abysmal apostrophe.
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« Reply #10091 on: June 13, 2017, 11:09:21 PM »

Apologies for posting links from this rag but just seen this on Facebook!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3786046/sinn-feins-mps-fly-to-london-to-take-up-their-westminster-offices-sparking-fears-they-will-wreck-plans-for-a-tory-dup-majority/
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« Reply #10092 on: June 13, 2017, 11:19:22 PM »


No panic ......They're  just coming to do the usual touristy things.....Buck House, Trafalgar sq , Tower of London etc   Cheesy
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« Reply #10093 on: June 13, 2017, 11:22:05 PM »

https://www.ft.com/content/dac3a3b2-4ad7-11e7-919a-1e14ce4af89b

Financial times analysis of the election, people in poor health and leavers swung to the Tories. People with degrees even the over 50's  swung Labour.
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« Reply #10094 on: June 13, 2017, 11:47:27 PM »

https://www.ft.com/content/dac3a3b2-4ad7-11e7-919a-1e14ce4af89b

Financial times analysis of the election, people in poor health and leavers swung to the Tories. People with degrees even the over 50's  swung Labour.

Not really surprising really.

The old stole the future of the young last year. The young repaid them by safeguarding their pensions and fuel allowances.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 11:51:11 PM by The Camel » Logged

Congratulations to the 2012 League Champion - Stapleton Atheists

"Keith The Camel, a true champion!" - Brent Horner 30th December 2012

"I dont think you're a wanker Keith" David Nicholson 4th March 2013
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