The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Pokerpops]

On Twitter, Barny Boatman posed this question, which was a sort of Catch 22 thing;


I’ve got a question for those who make the reasonable point that having a second Brexit vote would be undemocratic.
What percentage of the population would have to want a second vote before it would be more undemocratic NOT to have one ?

Shall we have a referendum on whether or not to have a second referendum?

The Telegraph published a letter today from a Second Referendum supporter in which it was suggested that the threshold for ‘Leave’ be either 75% of those who vote, or more than 50% of all registered voters. Words fail me at this interpretation of democracy.

By the way, what exactly do people think will happen if we have a second vote and there is a majority for Remain?
The EU welcomes us back with open arms, all previous opt-outs restored and more added? A slap up meal with all the scallops you can eat?
Doesn’t seem likely.

What is your definition/interpretation of democracy?

Democracy encompasses the idea that all votes are equal. Under the suggested rules each Remain vote will have a higher value than a Leave vote.

[Jon MW]

On Twitter, Barny Boatman posed this question, which was a sort of Catch 22 thing;


I’ve got a question for those who make the reasonable point that having a second Brexit vote would be undemocratic.
What percentage of the population would have to want a second vote before it would be more undemocratic NOT to have one ?

Shall we have a referendum on whether or not to have a second referendum?

The Telegraph published a letter today from a Second Referendum supporter in which it was suggested that the threshold for ‘Leave’ be either 75% of those who vote, or more than 50% of all registered voters. Words fail me at this interpretation of democracy.

By the way, what exactly do people think will happen if we have a second vote and there is a majority for Remain?
The EU welcomes us back with open arms, all previous opt-outs restored and more added? A slap up meal with all the scallops you can eat?
Doesn’t seem likely.

What is your definition/interpretation of democracy?

Democracy encompasses the idea that all votes are equal. Under the suggested rules each Remain vote will have a higher value than a Leave vote.

That's part of how to decide the democratic will of the people, but all votes being equal isn't a definition of democracy.

You can't say, "Words fail me at this interpretation of democracy." if you can't explain what your interpretation of democracy is(?)

[RED-DOG]

All democracy actually means is we get to choose a governing party from the few available. 

[nirvana]

5 pts if anyone can name the band:

People seem to think they are free, tucked away in a democracy
Put their cross once every 5 years and that buries their doubts and hides their fears
So who do you think profits from the cuts in public spending
It doesn't bother them if the welfare state is ending
They would do without us if they could
If they could do without us then they would

[nirvana]

Anyway, literally any excuse to share this song - can play this on guitar cause anyone can :-)

Naive in some ways of course but a really concise elucidation of the last 40 years of centre-rightism

[Pokerpops]

On Twitter, Barny Boatman posed this question, which was a sort of Catch 22 thing;


I’ve got a question for those who make the reasonable point that having a second Brexit vote would be undemocratic.
What percentage of the population would have to want a second vote before it would be more undemocratic NOT to have one ?

Shall we have a referendum on whether or not to have a second referendum?

The Telegraph published a letter today from a Second Referendum supporter in which it was suggested that the threshold for ‘Leave’ be either 75% of those who vote, or more than 50% of all registered voters. Words fail me at this interpretation of democracy.

By the way, what exactly do people think will happen if we have a second vote and there is a majority for Remain?
The EU welcomes us back with open arms, all previous opt-outs restored and more added? A slap up meal with all the scallops you can eat?
Doesn’t seem likely.

What is your definition/interpretation of democracy?

Democracy encompasses the idea that all votes are equal. Under the suggested rules each Remain vote will have a higher value than a Leave vote.

That's part of how to decide the democratic will of the people, but all votes being equal isn't a definition of democracy.

You can't say, "Words fail me at this interpretation of democracy." if you can't explain what your interpretation of democracy is(?)

I can, and I did.

Not really sure what point you are  trying to make here?

All votes being equal is very much a part of what my idea of democracy is.
It is the core of a democratic voting system.

Or are we now at Manor Farm democracy where some votes are more equal than others?

[kukushkin88]

On Twitter, Barny Boatman posed this question, which was a sort of Catch 22 thing;


I’ve got a question for those who make the reasonable point that having a second Brexit vote would be undemocratic.
What percentage of the population would have to want a second vote before it would be more undemocratic NOT to have one ?

Shall we have a referendum on whether or not to have a second referendum?

The Telegraph published a letter today from a Second Referendum supporter in which it was suggested that the threshold for ‘Leave’ be either 75% of those who vote, or more than 50% of all registered voters. Words fail me at this interpretation of democracy.

By the way, what exactly do people think will happen if we have a second vote and there is a majority for Remain?
The EU welcomes us back with open arms, all previous opt-outs restored and more added? A slap up meal with all the scallops you can eat?
Doesn’t seem likely.

What is your definition/interpretation of democracy?

Democracy encompasses the idea that all votes are equal. Under the suggested rules each Remain vote will have a higher value than a Leave vote.

That's part of how to decide the democratic will of the people, but all votes being equal isn't a definition of democracy.

You can't say, "Words fail me at this interpretation of democracy." if you can't explain what your interpretation of democracy is(?)

I can, and I did.

Not really sure what point you are  trying to make here?

All votes being equal is very much a part of what my idea of democracy is.
It is the core of a democratic voting system.

Or are we now at Manor Farm democracy where some votes are more equal than others?

EAB and Tony B would be offended to have you on our side.

[MintTrav]

On Twitter, Barny Boatman posed this question, which was a sort of Catch 22 thing;


I’ve got a question for those who make the reasonable point that having a second Brexit vote would be undemocratic.
What percentage of the population would have to want a second vote before it would be more undemocratic NOT to have one ?

Shall we have a referendum on whether or not to have a second referendum?

The Telegraph published a letter today from a Second Referendum supporter in which it was suggested that the threshold for ‘Leave’ be either 75% of those who vote, or more than 50% of all registered voters. Words fail me at this interpretation of democracy.

By the way, what exactly do people think will happen if we have a second vote and there is a majority for Remain?
The EU welcomes us back with open arms, all previous opt-outs restored and more added? A slap up meal with all the scallops you can eat?
Doesn’t seem likely.

What is your definition/interpretation of democracy?

Democracy encompasses the idea that all votes are equal. Under the suggested rules each Remain vote will have a higher value than a Leave vote.

That's part of how to decide the democratic will of the people, but all votes being equal isn't a definition of democracy.

You can't say, "Words fail me at this interpretation of democracy." if you can't explain what your interpretation of democracy is(?)

I can, and I did.

Not really sure what point you are  trying to make here?

All votes being equal is very much a part of what my idea of democracy is.
It is the core of a democratic voting system.

Or are we now at Manor Farm democracy where some votes are more equal than others?

EAB and Tony B would be offended to have you on our side.

On the original point, if we believe in democracy, we have to hold another referendum before taking this mammoth step.

[Jon MW]

On Twitter, Barny Boatman posed this question, which was a sort of Catch 22 thing;


I’ve got a question for those who make the reasonable point that having a second Brexit vote would be undemocratic.
What percentage of the population would have to want a second vote before it would be more undemocratic NOT to have one ?

Shall we have a referendum on whether or not to have a second referendum?

The Telegraph published a letter today from a Second Referendum supporter in which it was suggested that the threshold for ‘Leave’ be either 75% of those who vote, or more than 50% of all registered voters. Words fail me at this interpretation of democracy.

By the way, what exactly do people think will happen if we have a second vote and there is a majority for Remain?
The EU welcomes us back with open arms, all previous opt-outs restored and more added? A slap up meal with all the scallops you can eat?
Doesn’t seem likely.

What is your definition/interpretation of democracy?

Democracy encompasses the idea that all votes are equal. Under the suggested rules each Remain vote will have a higher value than a Leave vote.

That's part of how to decide the democratic will of the people, but all votes being equal isn't a definition of democracy.

You can't say, "Words fail me at this interpretation of democracy." if you can't explain what your interpretation of democracy is(?)

I can, and I did.

Not really sure what point you are  trying to make here?

All votes being equal is very much a part of what my idea of democracy is.
It is the core of a democratic voting system.

Or are we now at Manor Farm democracy where some votes are more equal than others?

Again - saying each vote is equal isn't democracy, it's just one element of democracy. It's like answering, how do you drive a car by saying - you turn the wheel.

I was trying to avoid asking any leading questions but to push it along a bit.

A fairly standard interpretation/definition of democracy would be something like "government by the will of the people" (demos 'the people' + -kratia 'power, rule').

If you want to interpret a working version of democracy you need to decide;
1. Who are 'the people'? and
2. How do you decide what the 'will of the people' actually is?

From your responses I'd guess your answers would be.
1. 'The people' are those that voted and
2. Their 'will' is the side that got the most votes

Is that right?

[Pokerpops]

On Twitter, Barny Boatman posed this question, which was a sort of Catch 22 thing;


I’ve got a question for those who make the reasonable point that having a second Brexit vote would be undemocratic.
What percentage of the population would have to want a second vote before it would be more undemocratic NOT to have one ?

Shall we have a referendum on whether or not to have a second referendum?

The Telegraph published a letter today from a Second Referendum supporter in which it was suggested that the threshold for ‘Leave’ be either 75% of those who vote, or more than 50% of all registered voters. Words fail me at this interpretation of democracy.

By the way, what exactly do people think will happen if we have a second vote and there is a majority for Remain?
The EU welcomes us back with open arms, all previous opt-outs restored and more added? A slap up meal with all the scallops you can eat?
Doesn’t seem likely.

What is your definition/interpretation of democracy?

Democracy encompasses the idea that all votes are equal. Under the suggested rules each Remain vote will have a higher value than a Leave vote.

That's part of how to decide the democratic will of the people, but all votes being equal isn't a definition of democracy.

You can't say, "Words fail me at this interpretation of democracy." if you can't explain what your interpretation of democracy is(?)

I can, and I did.

Not really sure what point you are  trying to make here?

All votes being equal is very much a part of what my idea of democracy is.
It is the core of a democratic voting system.

Or are we now at Manor Farm democracy where some votes are more equal than others?

EAB and Tony B would be offended to have you on our side.

Really happy to offend Tony B, not sure why you think EAB wouldn’t want me to join him en route to Wigan Pier?

[neeko]

To quote others the Brexit vote is either democratic or irreversible, it can’t be both.

[Pokerpops]

On Twitter, Barny Boatman posed this question, which was a sort of Catch 22 thing;


I’ve got a question for those who make the reasonable point that having a second Brexit vote would be undemocratic.
What percentage of the population would have to want a second vote before it would be more undemocratic NOT to have one ?

Shall we have a referendum on whether or not to have a second referendum?

The Telegraph published a letter today from a Second Referendum supporter in which it was suggested that the threshold for ‘Leave’ be either 75% of those who vote, or more than 50% of all registered voters. Words fail me at this interpretation of democracy.

By the way, what exactly do people think will happen if we have a second vote and there is a majority for Remain?
The EU welcomes us back with open arms, all previous opt-outs restored and more added? A slap up meal with all the scallops you can eat?
Doesn’t seem likely.

What is your definition/interpretation of democracy?

Democracy encompasses the idea that all votes are equal. Under the suggested rules each Remain vote will have a higher value than a Leave vote.

That's part of how to decide the democratic will of the people, but all votes being equal isn't a definition of democracy.

You can't say, "Words fail me at this interpretation of democracy." if you can't explain what your interpretation of democracy is(?)

I can, and I did.

Not really sure what point you are  trying to make here?

All votes being equal is very much a part of what my idea of democracy is.
It is the core of a democratic voting system.

Or are we now at Manor Farm democracy where some votes are more equal than others?

Again - saying each vote is equal isn't democracy, it's just one element of democracy. It's like answering, how do you drive a car by saying - you turn the wheel.

I was trying to avoid asking any leading questions but to push it along a bit.

A fairly standard interpretation/definition of democracy would be something like "government by the will of the people" (demos 'the people' + -kratia 'power, rule').

If you want to interpret a working version of democracy you need to decide;
1. Who are 'the people'? and
2. How do you decide what the 'will of the people' actually is?

From your responses I'd guess your answers would be.
1. 'The people' are those that voted and
2. Their 'will' is the side that got the most votes

Is that right?

I understand, I think, the point you are making, and maybe you’re right. I need to give some more thought to the idea. Allow me to express some thoughts aloud.

If you stop using the steering wheel you aren’t driving. If all votes aren’t equal then you don’t have a democracy. But, and it’s a real but,

I’m pretty sure there’s a lot of existing legislation that shouldn’t be changed without a substantial majority of the populace supporting it. Restoring the death penalty for example.

If the original proposal for a referendum had set a threshold (not unreasonable because it is such a major change to the existing situation) and the campaign had been fought on that basis then maybe that is ok.

My objection to the specific issue was the proposal that not only do we have to have a second referendum, but that we should change the rules in a clear attempt to reverse the result.

This has been an interesting debate though, thank you for your thoughtful challenges to my posts.

None of it changes my view that, in the long term, this country is better served by escaping the EU.

[Woodsey]

Maybe ranks being broken?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/emmanuel-macron-changes-tune-and-urges-eu-to-cut-a-close-brexit-deal-with-uk-a3923101.html

[MANTIS01]

Surprised to see the French surrendering

[Woodsey]

  idiots

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-45352622