The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Pokerpops]

Having wavered a little, I am ready to pronounce that a second referendum before leaving would be deeply undemocratic.

This is the most important decision the  country has made for forty years. When we elect a government, it just lasts a few years, but the result of this could be in place for decades. We need to be sure that we are doing the right thing. Last time, the narrow majority included protest voters who thought their vote wouldn't affect the result and there were people who didn't bother to vote for the same reason. Both of those should have learnt their lesson, to say nothing of people who voted leave, but now understand the situation better and would vote differently. The reason hardline leavers don't want another referendum is not because it is 'undemocratic' - if they really were champions of democracy they would support one. It's because they fear they will lose. But, in a scenario where it looks like the result is likely to be different now, it would be undemocratic not to run it again before making the biggest change to our lives for a generation.

Say what?

So we’re making decisions based on opinion polls now?

We don’t elect a government btw.

We have a representative democracy, so you could say having a referendum is anti-democratic...   

Hmmm, you could. Although, having elected MPs and accepted their right to organise into parties and form a government, if they choose to hold a referendum isn’t that democracy in action?

Listening to the Labour Party tying themselves in knots on the whole topic of Brexit is both hilarious and profoundly depressing. Corbyn is, at heart, anti-EU as are most of the leftists. Momentum, on the other hand, appear to be more pro. A fine opportunity for Mr Straight, honest and open to exercise his fudging skills whenever he is asked about his views.

[Jon MW]

Having wavered a little, I am ready to pronounce that a second referendum before leaving would be deeply undemocratic.....

So following the result of the first referendum would be democratic?
The first referendum is 'the will of the people'?

The results of that referendum were:
29% couldn't vote;
20% didn't vote;
26% voted for;
25% voted against

74% of the population didn't vote to leave the EU; how is leaving the EU democratic?

I am a remainer but where are these figures from?  Are you using the non votes from new born babies to make a political point???

Democracy is the will of the people - are you saying children aren't people?

[RickBFA]

Having wavered a little, I am ready to pronounce that a second referendum before leaving would be deeply undemocratic.

This is the most important decision the  country has made for forty years. When we elect a government, it just lasts a few years, but the result of this could be in place for decades. We need to be sure that we are doing the right thing. Last time, the narrow majority included protest voters who thought their vote wouldn't affect the result and there were people who didn't bother to vote for the same reason. Both of those should have learnt their lesson, to say nothing of people who voted leave, but now understand the situation better and would vote differently. The reason hardline leavers don't want another referendum is not because it is 'undemocratic' - if they really were champions of democracy they would support one. It's because they fear they will lose. But, in a scenario where it looks like the result is likely to be different now, it would be undemocratic not to run it again before making the biggest change to our lives for a generation.

Say what?

So we’re making decisions based on opinion polls now?

We don’t elect a government btw.

We have a representative democracy, so you could say having a referendum is anti-democratic...  

Potentially having additional referendum(s) because you don't like the way things are going when the last one was only two years ago is ok?

Feels like the establishment and political elite trying to get their own way rather than following the will of the people however misguided some may think it is.

EDIT : Doobs, I misread your post above, apologies. My reply doesnt make any sense in relation to your post!!

[DaveShoelace]

Having wavered a little, I am ready to pronounce that a second referendum before leaving would be deeply undemocratic.....

So following the result of the first referendum would be democratic?
The first referendum is 'the will of the people'?

The results of that referendum were:
29% couldn't vote;
20% didn't vote;
26% voted for;
25% voted against

74% of the population didn't vote to leave the EU; how is leaving the EU democratic?

I am a remainer but where are these figures from?  Are you using the non votes from new born babies to make a political point???

Democracy is the will of the people - are you saying children aren't people?

While we are at it, nobody asked my dog what he thought of Brexit either.

[Jon MW]

Having wavered a little, I am ready to pronounce that a second referendum before leaving would be deeply undemocratic.....

So following the result of the first referendum would be democratic?
The first referendum is 'the will of the people'?

The results of that referendum were:
29% couldn't vote;
20% didn't vote;
26% voted for;
25% voted against

74% of the population didn't vote to leave the EU; how is leaving the EU democratic?

I am a remainer but where are these figures from?  Are you using the non votes from new born babies to make a political point???

Democracy is the will of the people - are you saying children aren't people?

While we are at it, nobody asked my dog what he thought of Brexit either.

Are you saying having a child is equivalent to owning a dog?

[RickBFA]

Having wavered a little, I am ready to pronounce that a second referendum before leaving would be deeply undemocratic.....

So following the result of the first referendum would be democratic?
The first referendum is 'the will of the people'?

The results of that referendum were:
29% couldn't vote;
20% didn't vote;
26% voted for;
25% voted against

74% of the population didn't vote to leave the EU; how is leaving the EU democratic?

I am a remainer but where are these figures from?  Are you using the non votes from new born babies to make a political point???

Democracy is the will of the people - are you saying children aren't people?

This kids voting stuff has to be a wind up surely?


Are we being whoosed?

[Jon MW]

Having wavered a little, I am ready to pronounce that a second referendum before leaving would be deeply undemocratic.....

So following the result of the first referendum would be democratic?
The first referendum is 'the will of the people'?

The results of that referendum were:
29% couldn't vote;
20% didn't vote;
26% voted for;
25% voted against

74% of the population didn't vote to leave the EU; how is leaving the EU democratic?

I am a remainer but where are these figures from?  Are you using the non votes from new born babies to make a political point???

Democracy is the will of the people - are you saying children aren't people?

This kids voting stuff has to be a wind up surely?


Are we being whoosed?

Who said anything about kids voting?

In a representative democracy an elected politician represents everyone who voted for them, or against them, or didn't vote at all (for whatever reason).

In a referendum the result is only determined by those who vote.

If people are so concerned about democracy, wouldn't a referendum where half the population don't count be very much undemocratic then?

[DungBeetle]

Having wavered a little, I am ready to pronounce that a second referendum before leaving would be deeply undemocratic.....

So following the result of the first referendum would be democratic?
The first referendum is 'the will of the people'?

The results of that referendum were:
29% couldn't vote;
20% didn't vote;
26% voted for;
25% voted against

74% of the population didn't vote to leave the EU; how is leaving the EU democratic?

I am a remainer but where are these figures from?  Are you using the non votes from new born babies to make a political point???

Democracy is the will of the people - are you saying children aren't people?

This kids voting stuff has to be a wind up surely?


Are we being whoosed?

Who said anything about kids voting?

In a representative democracy an elected politician represents everyone who voted for them, or against them, or didn't vote at all (for whatever reason).

In a referendum the result is only determined by those who vote.

If people are so concerned about democracy, wouldn't a referendum where half the population don't count be very much undemocratic then?

Your point is utterly ridiculous.   You can’t use babies not voting to dilute the leave vote.   

[Jon MW]

Having wavered a little, I am ready to pronounce that a second referendum before leaving would be deeply undemocratic.....

So following the result of the first referendum would be democratic?
The first referendum is 'the will of the people'?

The results of that referendum were:
29% couldn't vote;
20% didn't vote;
26% voted for;
25% voted against

74% of the population didn't vote to leave the EU; how is leaving the EU democratic?

I am a remainer but where are these figures from?  Are you using the non votes from new born babies to make a political point???

Democracy is the will of the people - are you saying children aren't people?

This kids voting stuff has to be a wind up surely?


Are we being whoosed?

Who said anything about kids voting?

In a representative democracy an elected politician represents everyone who voted for them, or against them, or didn't vote at all (for whatever reason).

In a referendum the result is only determined by those who vote.

If people are so concerned about democracy, wouldn't a referendum where half the population don't count be very much undemocratic then?

Your point is utterly ridiculous.  You can’t use babies not voting to dilute the leave vote.  

You've made a statement, you haven't given a reason.

In an election the voters decide on the people they want to make decisions for them - those people then make decisions on behalf of the entire population.

In a referendum the voters decide on the decision themselves.

The first option means a decision is made on behalf of the all 'the people'
The second option means a decision is made on behalf of about half 'the people'

Which better represents the will of 'the people' i.e. democracy?


EDIT: to put it another way - democracy is about deciding the will of the people; what if the people don't have a single will? How is it the will of the people if 25% of them want one thing and 24% want another?

[TightEnd]

In essentially a two party democracy with a lot of wasted votes in safe constituencies

If there was an election tomorrow who are remainers meant to vote for?

Conservative mainstream is pro-brexit

Labour leadership is pro-brexit

minor party options are ineffectual (unless you are able to vote for Plaid, SNP etc from a nationalist bent)

[DaveShoelace]

In essentially a two party democracy with a lot of wasted votes in safe constituencies

If there was an election tomorrow who are remainers meant to vote for?

Conservative mainstream is pro-brexit

Labour leadership is pro-brexit

minor party options are ineffectual (unless you are able to vote for Plaid, SNP etc from a nationalist bent)

If we expand the voting base Peppa Pig has some pretty progressive pro EU policies, or the Wiggles if you are looking for something a bit more centre left

[RickBFA]

In essentially a two party democracy with a lot of wasted votes in safe constituencies

If there was an election tomorrow who are remainers meant to vote for?

Conservative mainstream is pro-brexit

Labour leadership is pro-brexit

minor party options are ineffectual (unless you are able to vote for Plaid, SNP etc from a nationalist bent)

Lib Dems should be smashing it. Perfect breeding ground for their policies.

[TightEnd]

In essentially a two party democracy with a lot of wasted votes in safe constituencies

If there was an election tomorrow who are remainers meant to vote for?

Conservative mainstream is pro-brexit

Labour leadership is pro-brexit

minor party options are ineffectual (unless you are able to vote for Plaid, SNP etc from a nationalist bent)

Lib Dems should be smashing it. Perfect breeding ground for their policies.

still being punished for coalition/austerity, tuition fees and Clegg

[TightEnd]

Can Labour's Schrödinger's Brexit possibly make it through the looming crisis?

on Labour's vague Brexit position:

https://www.newstatesman.com/party-conferences2018/labour-party-conference/2018/09/brexit-becomes-harder-government-manage-it

[Sheriff Fatman]

Probably something they should have considered before the news about this 'progressive step' was released a whole 48 hours or so before the U-turn.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/09/labour-abandons-plan-elect-female-deputy-leader