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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2180505 times)
teddybloat
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« Reply #14820 on: October 24, 2018, 07:32:28 PM »



1) Leave Campaign told outright lies throughout- see claims re NHS and EU contributions which failed to take into account rebates.


This is undoubtedly true. but is it enough invalidate a referendum that attracted 34 million voters? Again most voted on the issues of immigration and sovereignty. Would you re-run general elections on the basis that manifestos contained lies?

again we see the patronisation were you don't credit people with being able to weigh evidence. people decide to vote based on the last catchiest slogan they saw on a bus? its quiet staggering the belittlement behind the 'bus = new vote needed' trope.
 

2) Many Leavers have claimed throughout that there is no short or medium term economic damage. "Project Fear" does not sound like Leavers accepting the economic damage, it simply is them trying to say the Government was trying to scare them (not that I disagree with that.)

many have and many still do. some think that after the storm we will be in a much stronger position economically they all  might be proven correct.

again we were presented with arguments on both sides, in a democracy we credit people with being able to weigh evidence and decide for themselves.  i personally very much agree that there will be adverse economic consequences. but i think they are a cost worth bearing and not something that can't be overcome.

that some leave voters saw the same economic arguments as remainers, yet dared to come to a different conclusion does not mean we should re run a vote with 34m participants.

3) I do not see why when the issue is so divisive AND people are now better informed, how having another referendum could be considered undemocratic. I do understand repeating a referendum until you get the result you want is. However, I don't think this is a fair comparison. Even the staunchest Leaver must admit, we were under prepared and things are a real mess.

welll as we approach brexit we were always going to have more information on what brexit looks like. so we can have multiple votes running up to leaving, no matter how many time leave might win.

most expected turbulence - certainly nearly all remain voters would have predicted that leaving was going to prove a shit show. we voted for this, it's part of the process of leaving.

 
4) I stopped discussing politics with one of my closest friends who is a Leaver, after he insisted that Turkey will join the EU. How do you debate with that level of delusion? The issue is too polarising, neither side really listen to one another. It just strengthens people's existing view, which seeing as I regard this issue as grey and not black or white then further discussion is counter productive.

the issue is polarising as it was boiled down to a yes /no question. why though is your friend concerned about turkey joining the eu? well,  it was something that was being discussed seriously at one point, i believe they had applied for membership and it was seriously being considered this decade. but why might your friend be concerned? i don't believe that not wanting an open border with turkey is an extreme position. the belief / fear that it is definitely going to happen is likely down to believing that multiculturalism is a failed and dangerous experiment.

again engage him on this, it's not an irrational fear when turkey's accession was very much on the cards pretty recently

5) The irrationality of voters can clearly be seen by the counties that both pay/receive EU money. London who pays vote to Remain, Cornwall, North West vote to leave despite being beneficiary.


again you ascribe irrationality where there is none.

people who voted leave did so mainly out of concern of sovereignty and immigration. that they weren't swayed by wads of money shows that those concerns weghed more heavily on their decision than money. living in net £££ areas was not as much of a concern. you automatically assume that is because they are irrational people not able to properly assess the issues that are most important to them.

its why you didnt win them over before and why you are nowhere near winning them over now.

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teddybloat
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« Reply #14821 on: October 24, 2018, 07:43:11 PM »

the remain side will continue to lose the arguments as they fail to engage in any debate that isn't centered around the short-mid term damage leaving will cause whilst loftily saying that we were tricked into ticking an option that we now must regret.

people voting leave overwhelmingly voted on two issues: immigration and autonomy.

we were well aware of the downsides of leaving - how could we not be, remains campaign was a procession of warnings of the economic terror to come.

remain continue to fight a campaign that simply tells leave voters that we were too ignorant to make an informed decision, that we are old xenophobes, that we voted in error and that the biggest democratic event in recent history wasnt democratic enough and needs to be re-run a couple of years later.

had leave voters been treated with respect and had their concerns met with debate then you might not need middle class teenagers with ironic rick astley placards pleading for a referendum to be overturned on the premise that working class folk haven't a nuanced enough view on issues that effect their lives for their vote to be taken at first value first time round.

leave voters had a cogent and consistent view on this for years before the referendum,, our views arent going to be swayed by being patronised

I fundamentally disagree with you on the core issue and your logic on some points in your post, and could argue through the points made, but I’m pleased to see a rational post from the Leave side that can be argued with on a logical basis, instead of the madness from some other posters who have completely gone off the rails. Maybe tomorrow. Sorry for patronising you one more time.

sir you came as close as anyone to swaying me before the referendum and you did so by addressing my concerns directly. i voted out of concerns for sovereignty and was not at all assed about immigration -  in fact i was an advocate for open immigration. that i have performed a 180 on this side of the argument shows just what a terrible job at even attempting to counter it has been done by remain.

for the last few months i have only seen warnings and the slandering of leave voters as being irrational xenophobes.

it might be due to the banter of some of the characters here, but its a theme i've seen across social and mainstream media.

the people's march in particular was laughable in that regard

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MANTIS01
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« Reply #14822 on: October 24, 2018, 08:17:35 PM »

Remain argument has been very Spock-like from the start

Rather than using funny analogies that don't compute with the humourless wizards let's ask a direct question.

What's the logic behind the constant moaning?

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« Reply #14823 on: October 24, 2018, 08:22:00 PM »

Really good posts Teddy. I think to some extent we can treat ‘what will the impacts of Brexit be’ and ‘what are the rights/wrongs of a new referendum’ separately. Clearly they could become linked but at the moment, to my mind they are separate topics because the second referendum is still just hypothetical.
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« Reply #14824 on: October 24, 2018, 08:39:19 PM »


The government is chartering ships to avoid catastrophic shortages and people like teddybloat think they should be treated like delicate little princesses, you couldn't make it up.

At least live with your idiotic decision and stop whining abut the other side.  History will utterly revile you, so try your best to enjoy your remaining time.
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teddybloat
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« Reply #14825 on: October 24, 2018, 08:52:29 PM »

well if the worst fears of the scardiest of puddycats does come to pass, and the starving white descendents of tommy robinson look on jealously at the bwatwursts and coissants of europe i fear that the paucity of debate and lack of imagination of remain will shoulder just as much of the blame
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« Reply #14826 on: October 24, 2018, 09:24:16 PM »


The government is chartering ships to avoid catastrophic shortages and people like teddybloat think they should be treated like delicate little princesses, you couldn't make it up.

At least live with your idiotic decision and stop whining abut the other side.  History will utterly revile you, so try your best to enjoy your remaining time.



Wow.

I haven't seen Teddy whine once in his posts.

The only whining has been by the "you couldn't make it up" brigade in their non humourous, increasingly nasty posts.

"History will utterly revile you", is that him personally??!! Jesus, what a drama queen you are.....
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #14827 on: October 24, 2018, 09:34:13 PM »


The government is chartering ships to avoid catastrophic shortages and people like teddybloat think they should be treated like delicate little princesses, you couldn't make it up.

At least live with your idiotic decision and stop whining abut the other side.  History will utterly revile you, so try your best to enjoy your remaining time.


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Woodsey
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« Reply #14828 on: October 24, 2018, 09:59:15 PM »


The government is chartering ships to avoid catastrophic shortages and people like teddybloat think they should be treated like delicate little princesses, you couldn't make it up.

At least live with your idiotic decision and stop whining abut the other side.  History will utterly revile you, so try your best to enjoy your remaining time.

Haha, more hate please 
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MintTrav
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« Reply #14829 on: October 24, 2018, 10:50:05 PM »

What's the logic behind the constant moaning?

Ah. We get this all the time from Woodsey. It’s bizarre that they have adopted this stance, considering the amount of moaning they did pre-Referendum. I refer you to the last forty years of Europhobe moaning about the EU etc.
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Woodsey
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« Reply #14830 on: October 24, 2018, 10:54:23 PM »

What's the logic behind the constant moaning?

Ah. We get this all the time from Woodsey. It’s bizarre that they have adopted this stance, considering the amount of moaning they did pre-Referendum. I refer you to the last forty years of Europhobe moaning about the EU etc.

Just what I observe on here and elsewhere mate, nothing more nothing less.
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RickBFA
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« Reply #14831 on: October 24, 2018, 11:12:31 PM »


The government is chartering ships to avoid catastrophic shortages and people like teddybloat think they should be treated like delicate little princesses, you couldn't make it up.

At least live with your idiotic decision and stop whining abut the other side.  History will utterly revile you, so try your best to enjoy your remaining time.

In response to an eloquent post by Teddybloat, you come back with that?

Really ? Perhaps it shows where the real intolarance lies.

Up there as one of the worst post on here in 2018 and that’s saying something.

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MANTIS01
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« Reply #14832 on: October 24, 2018, 11:35:29 PM »

What's the logic behind the constant moaning?

Ah. We get this all the time from Woodsey. It’s bizarre that they have adopted this stance, considering the amount of moaning they did pre-Referendum. I refer you to the last forty years of Europhobe moaning about the EU etc.

When I was 7 my mum used to say if your friend jumped off a cliff would you do it too?

This is how parents deal with that kind of ‘logic’
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« Reply #14833 on: October 25, 2018, 12:03:23 AM »


This is undoubtedly true. but is it enough invalidate a referendum that attracted 34 million voters? Again most voted on the issues of immigration and sovereignty. Would you re-run general elections on the basis that manifestos contained lies?

again we see the patronisation were you don't credit people with being able to weigh evidence. people decide to vote based on the last catchiest slogan they saw on a bus? its quiet staggering the belittlement behind the 'bus = new vote needed' trope.

2) Many Leavers have claimed throughout that there is no short or medium term economic damage. "Project Fear" does not sound like Leavers accepting the economic damage, it simply is them trying to say the Government was trying to scare them (not that I disagree with that.)

many have and many still do. some think that after the storm we will be in a much stronger position economically they all  might be proven correct.

again we were presented with arguments on both sides, in a democracy we credit people with being able to weigh evidence and decide for themselves.  i personally very much agree that there will be adverse economic consequences. but i think they are a cost worth bearing and not something that can't be overcome.

that some leave voters saw the same economic arguments as remainers, yet dared to come to a different conclusion does not mean we should re run a vote with 34m participants.

3) I do not see why when the issue is so divisive AND people are now better informed, how having another referendum could be considered undemocratic. I do understand repeating a referendum until you get the result you want is. However, I don't think this is a fair comparison. Even the staunchest Leaver must admit, we were under prepared and things are a real mess.

welll as we approach brexit we were always going to have more information on what brexit looks like. so we can have multiple votes running up to leaving, no matter how many time leave might win.

most expected turbulence - certainly nearly all remain voters would have predicted that leaving was going to prove a shit show. we voted for this, it's part of the process of leaving.

 
4) I stopped discussing politics with one of my closest friends who is a Leaver, after he insisted that Turkey will join the EU. How do you debate with that level of delusion? The issue is too polarising, neither side really listen to one another. It just strengthens people's existing view, which seeing as I regard this issue as grey and not black or white then further discussion is counter productive.

the issue is polarising as it was boiled down to a yes /no question. why though is your friend concerned about turkey joining the eu? well,  it was something that was being discussed seriously at one point, i believe they had applied for membership and it was seriously being considered this decade. but why might your friend be concerned? i don't believe that not wanting an open border with turkey is an extreme position. the belief / fear that it is definitely going to happen is likely down to believing that multiculturalism is a failed and dangerous experiment.

again engage him on this, it's not an irrational fear when turkey's accession was very much on the cards pretty recently

5) The irrationality of voters can clearly be seen by the counties that both pay/receive EU money. London who pays vote to Remain, Cornwall, North West vote to leave despite being beneficiary.


again you ascribe irrationality where there is none.

people who voted leave did so mainly out of concern of sovereignty and immigration. that they weren't swayed by wads of money shows that those concerns weghed more heavily on their decision than money. living in net £££ areas was not as much of a concern. you automatically assume that is because they are irrational people not able to properly assess the issues that are most important to them.

its why you didnt win them over before and why you are nowhere near winning them over now.



Yes, you are correct, I do not believe the average person can accurately weigh up the evidence for such a complex decision. I know I have greater than average interest and more importantly time to research these things and did not come to a decision regarding the referendum. At no point did I state anything regarding a new referendum. I stated that I do not see how it could be seen as undemocratic to have a second vote when the country has more information. I understand why you feel that way however, because you won and you are now scared to lose.

Again, the comparison between a General Election and this Referendum is unfair. This isn't some Zimbabwean election repeat election rigging we are talking about. There is no need to re-do elections where a politician is perceived to have lied because there is already natural repetition. There will be another General Election anyway and therefore the politician and party face consequences for their lies. Whereas in this case I believe the electorate was lied to and has no recompense. Furthermore, we are still awaiting the court trial examining the financial misdealings of the Leave campaign. If upheld, would that impact your decision? Again, not that I stated we should have another referendum, but that I do not understand the undemocratic argument. You agree people have more information now. You agree that there are some weaknesses to a simple yes/no question. But another referendum is undemocratic because it affects the result you want. If the referendum was close on the other side, I believe I wouldn't have had a problem with a second vote. I certainly believed Farage when he said he would not stop asking to Leave.

I'm really not a fan of the EU or the red tape caused by it. I believe the Euro is an absolute disaster waiting to happen, and that would have a huge impact on my overall views of the EU. Britain being forced to join the Euro would be a line in the sand for me. However, I do not believe the country is in the right economic state or political climate to make the price of leaving now acceptable. I do not believe it was planned at all and the political talent to lead a successful exit has never really been there in my opinion.

Re; Turkey, I'm not sure if you've looked into this but I know negotiations were open at various times but no progress has been made. Negotiations opened in 2004, 16 out of 35 chapters have been opened and one has been closed successfully.  I really cba to discuss it more, as you won't change your mind and neither will I. It is clear to me whilst Erdogan is in charge, Turkey will never join the EU. Can we just bet that Turkey will or won't join the EU over a certain time horizon? I'm happy to lay some odds on this depending on time frames.

You misunderstood my point 5. I said its irrational because I do not believe the voters even knew or understood that information beforehand. Unless you want to argue that the immigration side is about race and not money, which is clearly something that the Leave side of the forum would get extremely defensive about, then you must agree it is irrational. I believe they thought/think they would be monetarily better off, which is fine to think, but also irrational to me at least in the medium term.

I'm not sure why you have ascribed this view to me that I am a hardcore Remainer. I believe I've tended to take the opposition view in most conversations around this topic. On this forum and in real life that has largely been on the Remain side, due to luck. I typically get rather annoyed at both polarities of the spectrum. I'm also somewhat biased having lived outside England for the last 6 years, and this will probably be the final nail in the coffin for me living again in England unless I am forced to return. Politically I'm not even sure where I land. Socially liberal but I do not believe in left wing economic policy. I largely believe the state is a necessary requirement in a capitalistic society to redistribute wealth and power away from corporations (and the institutions that support them) and towards individuals. Hardly sounds like a hardcore EU supporter, but I could be wrong.

Also never really got the sovereignty stuff; I've not found much evidence that the EU is stopping us from enacting any particular legislation we would want but I could be wrong. This is an interesting topic at the moment after the recent refusal of the EU to accept the budget put forward by the Italian government, so I can see this side of the argument, but again I didn't see any evidence of it at the time, and still struggle to see how it applies to Britain. I think my sides might actually split if a Corbyn budget the EU wouldn't have approved gets enacted.

Lol at this article btw; https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/27/boris-johnson-says-britain-will-now-help-turkey-join-eu-despite/

Also I'm surprised to be saying this but Farage talks a lot of sense during this speech, although I can't comment on the Olly Robbins stuff. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45959456

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« Reply #14834 on: October 25, 2018, 12:04:28 AM »

I'm sorry Leavers see engagement and discussion as moaning. I suppose people are meant to suppress their beliefs and march to the pipers tune in this situation. Stiff upper lip and all that.
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