blonde poker forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 29, 2024, 02:05:50 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
2272484 Posts in 66752 Topics by 16945 Members
Latest Member: Zula
* Home Help Arcade Search Calendar Guidelines Login Register
+  blonde poker forum
|-+  Community Forums
| |-+  The Lounge
| | |-+  The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged
0 Members and 7 Guests are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

Pages: 1 ... 1127 1128 1129 1130 [1131] 1132 1133 1134 1135 ... 1533 Go Down Print
Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2181149 times)
Karabiner
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 22737


James Webb Telescope


View Profile
« Reply #16950 on: March 28, 2019, 10:26:08 AM »

All of these Tory MP's seem to be completely self-serving rather than serving their electorate.

May wants her deal accepted as a golden handshake so the history books will report that her leadership accomplished it's objective rather than the actual shambles it was.

The "big beasts" of the Tory party are seriously considering accepting May's proposal as a bribe so they get a shot at the top job regardless of the consequences.

The whole thing is a fiasco.
Logged

"Golf is deceptively simple and endlessly complicated. It satisfies the soul and frustrates the intellect. It is at the same time maddening and rewarding and it is without a doubt the greatest game that mankind has ever invented." - Arnold Palmer aka The King.
Longines
Gamesmaster
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3798


View Profile
« Reply #16951 on: March 28, 2019, 11:30:02 AM »

I have a question.

How come parliament get to vote on something multiple times and yet we get one chance three years ago.

Democracy.
Logged
Longines
Gamesmaster
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3798


View Profile
« Reply #16952 on: March 28, 2019, 11:39:07 AM »

This is the easiest visual I've found so far of the breakdown of the indicative votes.


Thanks for this. I thought my MP was relatively sensible but he voted against everything except the No Deal exit.
Logged
kukushkin88
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3892



View Profile
« Reply #16953 on: March 28, 2019, 12:07:59 PM »

This is the easiest visual I've found so far of the breakdown of the indicative votes.


Thanks for this. I thought my MP was relatively sensible but he voted against everything except the No Deal exit.

It’s likely this is a common misconception. I reckon lots of people who think their MP is “relatively sensible” would be disappointed and shocked by their voting records. imo, ithe best way to assess whether to continue a support an incumbent MP is to look through their voting record at the HoC.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 12:29:27 PM by kukushkin88 » Logged
Sheriff Fatman
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6133



View Profile
« Reply #16954 on: March 28, 2019, 02:44:45 PM »

This is the easiest visual I've found so far of the breakdown of the indicative votes.

I'm intrigued as to whether the Tories voting against every option were all ones who voted for May's deal previously.  Would love to find one who didn't.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ng-interactive/2019/mar/27/how-did-your-mp-vote-in-the-indicative-votes

It wan't just tories, Stephen Hepburn and Frank Field voted against all alternatives. 

Just checked all of them against the MV2 vote list.  All voted in favour of MV2, with the exception of Labour's Stephen Hepburn, making him the only MP in Parliament who has voted against every suggestion put forward for a vote so far.
Logged

"...And If You Flash Him A Smile He'll Take Your Teeth As Deposit..."
"Sheriff Fatman" - Carter the Unstoppable Sex Machine

2006 Blonde Caption Comp Ultimate Champion (to be replaced by actual poker achievements when I have any)

GUKPT Online Main Event Winner 2008 (yay, a poker achievement!)
Longines
Gamesmaster
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3798


View Profile
« Reply #16955 on: March 28, 2019, 02:59:15 PM »


It’s likely this is a common misconception. I reckon lots of people who think their MP is “relatively sensible” would be disappointed and shocked by their voting records. imo, ithe best way to assess whether to continue a support an incumbent MP is to look through their voting record at the HoC.

Agreed. His voting record on MV1, 2 and lots of other stuff was fairly sensible, just seems to be yesterday that he had a brain fart and went full JRM.
Logged
Sheriff Fatman
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6133



View Profile
« Reply #16956 on: March 28, 2019, 03:57:45 PM »

This is the easiest visual I've found so far of the breakdown of the indicative votes.


Thanks for this. I thought my MP was relatively sensible but he voted against everything except the No Deal exit.

It’s likely this is a common misconception. I reckon lots of people who think their MP is “relatively sensible” would be disappointed and shocked by their voting records. imo, ithe best way to assess whether to continue a support an incumbent MP is to look through their voting record at the HoC.

My constituency MP, Alex Sobel, is pretty good on this as he generally publishes info in advance of how he's planning to vote and why (certainly on the Brexit issues).  I think there are plenty of pro-active MPs like this, but no doubt significantly more who give no indication.  I've also seen several MPs today clarifying why they've voted certain ways (Lisa Nandy and Dan Jarvis on Twitter, for example).

Although I didn't vote for him at the general election, I've been impressed with Sobel as a constituency MP.  I've also pointed out to him via Twitter the fact that, despite this, I'd be unable to vote for him, as to do so would imply support of the Labour Party in its current state.  At the moment, a spoiled ballot paper would be my best option in a General Election, which is why it feels like a totally unsuitable vehicle to try and 'fix' the Brexit matter.  A 2nd Referendum is the only way to do that, as there'll be numerous issues wrapped up in how people choose to vote in a GE, which will continue to muddy the waters.

Given Barry Gardiner's comment's yesterday that "Labour are not a Remain Party" this would particularly apply to someone for whom Brexit is their biggest issue when it comes to voting, and who wants to support Remain in whatever form (2nd Ref, Revoke, whatever).  How do they do that in a meaningful way given that the GE decision will ultimately determine whether we get a Brexit supporting Tory government or a Brexit supporting Labour government under Corbyn?  It's literally do you want Hard Brexit or "Undefined Brexit + Communism"?  Not the most inspiring options.

Personally, I feel the Corbynista's have disregarded how much of their upturn in support at GE17 were votes from Remainers trying to do something to stop a hard Brexit coming from the increased majority that May asked people to give her, and are instead attributing it far too heavily towards them supporting Corbyn's manifesto.  If they fight any impending election on essentially the same manifesto alongside 'we will deliver a Labour Brexit' then they risk losing a huge rump of these voters, whether via (ultimately ineffective) votes to smaller parties or people simply not bothering.  Either way, it ultimately puts the Tories back into some form of Government with whomever is leading them at the time as PM, and inadvertently gives us a likely hard Brexit as the outcome alongside a PM from the right-wing of the Tory party.
Logged

"...And If You Flash Him A Smile He'll Take Your Teeth As Deposit..."
"Sheriff Fatman" - Carter the Unstoppable Sex Machine

2006 Blonde Caption Comp Ultimate Champion (to be replaced by actual poker achievements when I have any)

GUKPT Online Main Event Winner 2008 (yay, a poker achievement!)
kukushkin88
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3892



View Profile
« Reply #16957 on: March 28, 2019, 04:38:06 PM »

This is the easiest visual I've found so far of the breakdown of the indicative votes.


Thanks for this. I thought my MP was relatively sensible but he voted against everything except the No Deal exit.

It’s likely this is a common misconception. I reckon lots of people who think their MP is “relatively sensible” would be disappointed and shocked by their voting records. imo, ithe best way to assess whether to continue a support an incumbent MP is to look through their voting record at the HoC.

My constituency MP, Alex Sobel, is pretty good on this as he generally publishes info in advance of how he's planning to vote and why (certainly on the Brexit issues).  I think there are plenty of pro-active MPs like this, but no doubt significantly more who give no indication.  I've also seen several MPs today clarifying why they've voted certain ways (Lisa Nandy and Dan Jarvis on Twitter, for example).

Although I didn't vote for him at the general election, I've been impressed with Sobel as a constituency MP.  I've also pointed out to him via Twitter the fact that, despite this, I'd be unable to vote for him, as to do so would imply support of the Labour Party in its current state.  At the moment, a spoiled ballot paper would be my best option in a General Election, which is why it feels like a totally unsuitable vehicle to try and 'fix' the Brexit matter.  A 2nd Referendum is the only way to do that, as there'll be numerous issues wrapped up in how people choose to vote in a GE, which will continue to muddy the waters.

Given Barry Gardiner's comment's yesterday that "Labour are not a Remain Party" this would particularly apply to someone for whom Brexit is their biggest issue when it comes to voting, and who wants to support Remain in whatever form (2nd Ref, Revoke, whatever).  How do they do that in a meaningful way given that the GE decision will ultimately determine whether we get a Brexit supporting Tory government or a Brexit supporting Labour government under Corbyn?  It's literally do you want Hard Brexit or "Undefined Brexit + Communism"?  Not the most inspiring options.

Personally, I feel the Corbynista's have disregarded how much of their upturn in support at GE17 were votes from Remainers trying to do something to stop a hard Brexit coming from the increased majority that May asked people to give her, and are instead attributing it far too heavily towards them supporting Corbyn's manifesto.  If they fight any impending election on essentially the same manifesto alongside 'we will deliver a Labour Brexit' then they risk losing a huge rump of these voters, whether via (ultimately ineffective) votes to smaller parties or people simply not bothering.  Either way, it ultimately puts the Tories back into some form of Government with whomever is leading them at the time as PM, and inadvertently gives us a likely hard Brexit as the outcome alongside a PM from the right-wing of the Tory party.

Interesting stuff. I agree about the GE 17 motivation (and most of the rest, although I’m not sure about “communist”) I think another factor from GE17 that might be underrated (particularly by the Corbynista’s) is how many ‘protest’ votes Corbyn attracted, I don’t think he’ll attract nearly as many of those votes a second time. I’m less sure about how a GE now would go though and I’m sure leaving the EU under Labour would be better for the vast majority of people than leaving under the Conservatives. 
Logged
MANTIS01
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6730


What kind of fuckery is this?


View Profile
« Reply #16958 on: March 28, 2019, 04:58:16 PM »

I guess most MPs have a better understanding of Brexit than the majority of regular joes

When the experts fail to find a solution we figure the right move is ask the average joes to cast their knowing eyes over the issue in another referendum instead?

It’s like when a mechanic can’t find the problem with your car driving it to the church so a gaggle of my nuns can look under the bonnet instead
Logged

Tikay - "He has a proven track record in business, he is articulate, intelligent, & presents his cases well"

Claw75 - "Mantis is not only a blonde legend he's also very easy on the eye"

Outragous76 - "a really nice certainly intelligent guy"

taximan007 & Girgy85 & Celtic & Laxie - <3 Mantis
kukushkin88
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3892



View Profile
« Reply #16959 on: March 28, 2019, 05:02:23 PM »

I guess most MPs have a better understanding of Brexit than the majority of regular joes

When the experts fail to find a solution we figure the right move is ask the average joes to cast their knowing eyes over the issue in another referendum instead?

It’s like when a mechanic can’t find the problem with your car driving it to the church so a gaggle of my nuns can look under the bonnet instead

You are massively overrating MP’s. What would make them knowledgeable on these subjects?
Logged
MANTIS01
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6730


What kind of fuckery is this?


View Profile
« Reply #16960 on: March 28, 2019, 05:17:21 PM »

I guess most MPs have a better understanding of Brexit than the majority of regular joes

When the experts fail to find a solution we figure the right move is ask the average joes to cast their knowing eyes over the issue in another referendum instead?

It’s like when a mechanic can’t find the problem with your car driving it to the church so a gaggle of my nuns can look under the bonnet instead

You are massively overrating MP’s. What would make them knowledgeable on these subjects?

It’s their job.

You aren’t suggesting regular people are more qualified to decide are you?

because you don’t agree with referendum as governance and you think people are too ill-informed to grasp complex issues

So your stance is you don’t think people or MPs are qualified to decide.

Good one.
Logged

Tikay - "He has a proven track record in business, he is articulate, intelligent, & presents his cases well"

Claw75 - "Mantis is not only a blonde legend he's also very easy on the eye"

Outragous76 - "a really nice certainly intelligent guy"

taximan007 & Girgy85 & Celtic & Laxie - <3 Mantis
kukushkin88
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3892



View Profile
« Reply #16961 on: March 28, 2019, 05:36:02 PM »

I guess most MPs have a better understanding of Brexit than the majority of regular joes

When the experts fail to find a solution we figure the right move is ask the average joes to cast their knowing eyes over the issue in another referendum instead?

It’s like when a mechanic can’t find the problem with your car driving it to the church so a gaggle of my nuns can look under the bonnet instead

You are massively overrating MP’s. What would make them knowledgeable on these subjects?

It’s their job.

You aren’t suggesting regular people are more qualified to decide are you?

because you don’t agree with referendum as governance and you think people are too ill-informed to grasp complex issues

So your stance is you don’t think people or MPs are qualified to decide.

Good one.

MP’s are (well) placed to decide, because they are elected, not because they have great insight or knowledge. That’s how democracy works and while it is the best system we have, it’s clearly deeply flawed. MP’s have much less to do with running the country than you’d think.

Nice easy example: Gove knows close to nothing about Environment Regulation and he’s genuinely bright.
Logged
Longines
Gamesmaster
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3798


View Profile
« Reply #16962 on: March 28, 2019, 05:41:44 PM »

Thought this was a good read: https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/27/the-obscene-moral-spectacle-of-theresa-may-s-resignation
Logged
MANTIS01
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6730


What kind of fuckery is this?


View Profile
« Reply #16963 on: March 28, 2019, 05:50:44 PM »

I guess most MPs have a better understanding of Brexit than the majority of regular joes

When the experts fail to find a solution we figure the right move is ask the average joes to cast their knowing eyes over the issue in another referendum instead?

It’s like when a mechanic can’t find the problem with your car driving it to the church so a gaggle of my nuns can look under the bonnet instead

You are massively overrating MP’s. What would make them knowledgeable on these subjects?

It’s their job.

You aren’t suggesting regular people are more qualified to decide are you?

because you don’t agree with referendum as governance and you think people are too ill-informed to grasp complex issues

So your stance is you don’t think people or MPs are qualified to decide.

Good one.

MP’s are (well) placed to decide, because they are elected, not because they have great insight or knowledge. That’s how democracy works and while it is the best system we have, it’s clearly deeply flawed. MP’s have much less to do with running the country than you’d think.

Nice easy example: Gove knows close to nothing about Environment Regulation and he’s genuinely bright.

Nice easy example for you bro

Most MPs have probably read some or all of Theresa May’s proposal

Most average joes haven’t

Thus most MPs do indeed have greater insight/knowledge regarding the deal than most average joes
Logged

Tikay - "He has a proven track record in business, he is articulate, intelligent, & presents his cases well"

Claw75 - "Mantis is not only a blonde legend he's also very easy on the eye"

Outragous76 - "a really nice certainly intelligent guy"

taximan007 & Girgy85 & Celtic & Laxie - <3 Mantis
nirvana
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7804



View Profile
« Reply #16964 on: March 28, 2019, 05:56:58 PM »

Since the negotiations to leave were framed as Divorce, then discussion about the future, there was always going to be a blind brexit to an extent.

Short of no deal or revoke I think it's quite smart of the Government to present the WA for a vote in isolation - it will probably lose of course but it does force non 'unionist' MPs to vote against Brexit in a more or less conceptual way.
Logged

sola virtus nobilitat
Pages: 1 ... 1127 1128 1129 1130 [1131] 1132 1133 1134 1135 ... 1533 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.346 seconds with 23 queries.