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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2180115 times)
nirvana
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« Reply #19485 on: August 06, 2019, 06:05:19 PM »

Steady on! Let’s be careful cos if we can’t blame Boris for No Deal and no baby medicine we are in a real blame game quandary. How will Remain cope with this turn of events.

In what world do we not blame Boris? He is more obviously to blame now than at any stage. Particularly while he has no solution for the border, he can shoulder a very healthy portion of the blame.

I do think there’s some merit in the new PM/newly elected European Parliament line of necessity for new negotiations but the balance of actual power won’t have changed.

Tell me how this works - Boris wants a deal -he voted for it at least once. The parliament rejects a deal. The EU says there is no other deal. If you're a democrat like Boris, revoke isn't an option, a second vote isn't an option. How is he to blame if there is no deal ?

He voted against it twice, and for it once, so it is hard to conclude he wants a deal.   This is particularly true after he has been announcing that the deal is dead.   He just seems to want eh

He deservedly gets more blame than most, but there are plenty in parliament to blame. 
 


How does he get to be the one who says the deal is dead, he voted it for it infinitely more times than hundreds of them in Parliament. He's only stating the obvious. How this merits more blame than the people who voted against it on every occasion I really can't understand. Also he shifted his position after some tinkering with the future dec so there was some rationale for shifting position.

Look no further than the Labour party for why the deal is dead and look no further then the EU for why it's the only option other than no deal.
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StuartHopkin
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« Reply #19486 on: August 06, 2019, 06:07:25 PM »

On form today Nirvana

Good posts
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« Reply #19487 on: August 06, 2019, 06:54:01 PM »

Yea tekkers nirvantz

But holy Christ! If Remain only have Labour or EU left to blame I think the world might implode.
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« Reply #19488 on: August 06, 2019, 06:57:22 PM »

Yea tekkers nirvantz

But holy Christ! If Remain only have Labour or EU left to blame I think the world might implode.

Nah they got the thick racists as well don’t forget! 
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« Reply #19489 on: August 06, 2019, 07:08:09 PM »

Steady on! Let’s be careful cos if we can’t blame Boris for No Deal and no baby medicine we are in a real blame game quandary. How will Remain cope with this turn of events.

In what world do we not blame Boris? He is more obviously to blame now than at any stage. Particularly while he has no solution for the border, he can shoulder a very healthy portion of the blame.

I do think there’s some merit in the new PM/newly elected European Parliament line of necessity for new negotiations but the balance of actual power won’t have changed.

Tell me how this works - Boris wants a deal -he voted for it at least once. The parliament rejects a deal. The EU says there is no other deal. If you're a democrat like Boris, revoke isn't an option, a second vote isn't an option. How is he to blame if there is no deal ?

He voted against it twice, and for it once, so it is hard to conclude he wants a deal.   This is particularly true after he has been announcing that the deal is dead.   He just seems to want eh

He deservedly gets more blame than most, but there are plenty in parliament to blame. 
 


How does he get to be the one who says the deal is dead, he voted it for it infinitely more times than hundreds of them in Parliament. He's only stating the obvious. How this merits more blame than the people who voted against it on every occasion I really can't understand. Also he shifted his position after some tinkering with the future dec so there was some rationale for shifting position.

Look no further than the Labour party for why the deal is dead and look no further then the EU for why it's the only option other than no deal.

He didn't vote for it infinitely more times than people who didn't vote for it at all; he voted for it one more time than those who didn't vote for it at all   

He gets more blame as he voted for Brexit and is part of the Government who negotiated the deal on how that Brexit happened.  That gives him a bit more say in it than Corbyn, whatever you think of how bad Corbyn has been on this from the start. Of course, you can asign blame in whichever way you wish, as others can in many finite different ways.  Kind of comical that you think the EU is more responsible than Boris for us voting against the deal we agreed with them though.     

Strongly suspect my 7 year old has a better understanding of infinity than you do Cheesy

And just for Mantis, those on the remain side have many finite different views on this too.  There is no one "Remain" view and no one "Leave" view.  Imagine a World where we all believed the same as Kuku or if you lot all belived the same as Mark Francois? Though fair to say it does sometimes feel like that here.
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #19490 on: August 06, 2019, 07:13:06 PM »

Steady on! Let’s be careful cos if we can’t blame Boris for No Deal and no baby medicine we are in a real blame game quandary. How will Remain cope with this turn of events.

In what world do we not blame Boris? He is more obviously to blame now than at any stage. Particularly while he has no solution for the border, he can shoulder a very healthy portion of the blame.

I do think there’s some merit in the new PM/newly elected European Parliament line of necessity for new negotiations but the balance of actual power won’t have changed.

Tell me how this works - Boris wants a deal -he voted for it at least once. The parliament rejects a deal. The EU says there is no other deal. If you're a democrat like Boris, revoke isn't an option, a second vote isn't an option. How is he to blame if there is no deal ?

A large proportion of Parliament opposes Brexit, on all known information, a majority of Parliament oppose a no deal Brexit. They’re perfectly entitled to do this (both). You seem to be saying that MP’s who voted against the deal, voted for no deal, most of them just oppose brexit altogether*. The parliamentary system we have acts as a failsafe to prevent the country being harmed.

The idea of negotiating a new agreement without proposing a solution to the Irish border is futile. I could see a case for new negotiations if there was a solution proposed for the border.

Boris has no mandate at all for leading us in to a no deal Brexit, suggesting he is a ‘democrat’ for doing so has to be wrong.

*The widespread support for triggering Article 50 (which everyone know seems to agree was ridiculously premature) is interesting but much less was known at the time about how Brexit has no upside and I’d reckon they were just thinking ‘electoral suicide’ to oppose this.
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nirvana
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« Reply #19491 on: August 06, 2019, 07:36:58 PM »

Steady on! Let’s be careful cos if we can’t blame Boris for No Deal and no baby medicine we are in a real blame game quandary. How will Remain cope with this turn of events.

In what world do we not blame Boris? He is more obviously to blame now than at any stage. Particularly while he has no solution for the border, he can shoulder a very healthy portion of the blame.

I do think there’s some merit in the new PM/newly elected European Parliament line of necessity for new negotiations but the balance of actual power won’t have changed.

Tell me how this works - Boris wants a deal -he voted for it at least once. The parliament rejects a deal. The EU says there is no other deal. If you're a democrat like Boris, revoke isn't an option, a second vote isn't an option. How is he to blame if there is no deal ?

He voted against it twice, and for it once, so it is hard to conclude he wants a deal.   This is particularly true after he has been announcing that the deal is dead.   He just seems to want eh

He deservedly gets more blame than most, but there are plenty in parliament to blame. 
 


How does he get to be the one who says the deal is dead, he voted it for it infinitely more times than hundreds of them in Parliament. He's only stating the obvious. How this merits more blame than the people who voted against it on every occasion I really can't understand. Also he shifted his position after some tinkering with the future dec so there was some rationale for shifting position.

Look no further than the Labour party for why the deal is dead and look no further then the EU for why it's the only option other than no deal.

He didn't vote for it infinitely more times than people who didn't vote for it at all; he voted for it one more time than those who didn't vote for it at all   

He gets more blame as he voted for Brexit and is part of the Government who negotiated the deal on how that Brexit happened.  That gives him a bit more say in it than Corbyn, whatever you think of how bad Corbyn has been on this from the start. Of course, you can asign blame in whichever way you wish, as others can in many finite different ways.  Kind of comical that you think the EU is more responsible than Boris for us voting against the deal we agreed with them though.     

Strongly suspect my 7 year old has a better understanding of infinity than you do Cheesy

And just for Mantis, those on the remain side have many finite different views on this too.  There is no one "Remain" view and no one "Leave" view.  Imagine a World where we all believed the same as Kuku or if you lot all belived the same as Mark Francois? Though fair to say it does sometimes feel like that here.
I heard someone say that infinity once. Can't defend myself Smiley
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« Reply #19492 on: August 06, 2019, 08:00:56 PM »

If the more extreme elements of the Tory party along with the Labour Party  (party politics before the country - what clowns) - particularly the Brexit supporting Labour MP’s had voted for the deal then we wouldn't be in this mess.

The irony is the remainers in Parliament who have constantly tried every trick in the book to block Brexit may well help bring about a no deal Brexit.

All of the above should be embarrassed. This could have been sorted months ago. 
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ripple11
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« Reply #19493 on: August 06, 2019, 08:11:48 PM »

If the more extreme elements of the Tory party along with the Labour Party  (party politics before the country - what clowns) - particularly the Brexit supporting Labour MP’s had voted for the deal then we wouldn't be in this mess.

The irony is the remainers in Parliament who have constantly tried every trick in the book to block Brexit may well help bring about a no deal Brexit.

All of the above should be embarrassed. This could have been sorted months ago.  

This all over.

.....and no way Boris survives a vote of confidence, with a few Tories voting against him and surely only Kate Hoey (leaving parliament) from the Opposition votes for the Gov?....so its all going to kick off big time in September.
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #19494 on: August 06, 2019, 08:20:53 PM »

If the more extreme elements of the Tory party along with the Labour Party  (party politics before the country - what clowns) - particularly the Brexit supporting Labour MP’s had voted for the deal then we wouldn't be in this mess.

The irony is the remainers in Parliament who have constantly tried every trick in the book to block Brexit may well help bring about a no deal Brexit.

All of the above should be embarrassed. This could have been sorted months ago. 

Re: party politicking: Cameron has to be #1 offender and Boris is at the top table as well. The lack of coherence and consistency in the Labour position is shameful but in terms of playing politics, they aren’t the worst offenders. What Cameron did must be the all time record for putting party politics before the interests of the country and now Boris is going for the record (I’m still sure he’s bluffing fwiw)
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #19495 on: August 06, 2019, 08:24:03 PM »

If the more extreme elements of the Tory party along with the Labour Party  (party politics before the country - what clowns) - particularly the Brexit supporting Labour MP’s had voted for the deal then we wouldn't be in this mess.

The irony is the remainers in Parliament who have constantly tried every trick in the book to block Brexit may well help bring about a no deal Brexit.

All of the above should be embarrassed. This could have been sorted months ago.  

This all over.

.....and no way Boris survives a vote of confidence, with a few Tories voting against him and surely only Kate Hoey (leaving parliament) from the Opposition votes for the Gov?....so its all going to kick off big time in September.

Surely the point is we shouldn’t just want this to be over. We should want it to be resolved in a whichever way best serves the interests of the country. If there was a solution to the border problem, that would be a start.
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« Reply #19496 on: August 06, 2019, 08:25:23 PM »

By trying to appeal to everyone the Labour party front bench have had no explainable position for three years and will be associated with the impact of no deal as and when it happens, the exact opposite of what their plan was.

That takes some doing. Certainly right up there with the ERG for daftness.
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« Reply #19497 on: August 06, 2019, 08:30:59 PM »

Have enjoyed the discussion today.

How are the EU meant to change the deal to remove the backstop when doing so tears up the good friday agreement and possibly (probably?) leads to a resumption of violence in Northern Ireland?

For all its faults the WA was a very elegant solution to the Border problem.

Boris must be receiving advice that no deal risks peace in NI.

I try but i can't get my head round this part of it yet
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« Reply #19498 on: August 06, 2019, 08:36:31 PM »

By trying to appeal to everyone the Labour party front bench have had no explainable position for three years and will be associated with the impact of no deal as and when it happens, the exact opposite of what their plan was.

That takes some doing. Certainly right up there with the ERG for daftness.

Agreed that they would end up with a share of the blame (rightly so imo). Boris does know the true size of the downside though, so I’m still convinced that no deal doesn’t play out. Certainly no interest in ‘no deal’ at 17/10 (PP and bf)
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« Reply #19499 on: August 06, 2019, 09:15:47 PM »

By trying to appeal to everyone the Labour party front bench have had no explainable position for three years and will be associated with the impact of no deal as and when it happens, the exact opposite of what their plan was.

That takes some doing. Certainly right up there with the ERG for daftness.

On the other hand if they had taken a firm position it would have immediately alienated 48%+ of the electorate.
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