The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Sheriff Fatman]

Apart from the obvious answer of - because they're racist - there was a massive amount of discussion about how it's all related to poverty and the North being decimated and devestated by the Tories. From what they wrote I would have guessed that the North is like some kind of Mad Max-ian post apocalyptic wasteland where the poverty stricken working class can only scrimp they're survival by digging in the dirt for the occasional fragment of coal to keep them going.

I know this was said in jest, but this wasn't far from the truth during the miners' strike in 1984-85, and living through this as the son of a coal miner is the significant factor in why I will never vote Tory in my lifetime.  Ironically, over 15,000 people within the Hemsworth constituency where I grew up managed to overcome this reluctance last week, which was probably the most stark statistic for me as to Corbyn's legacy.

In the height of the strike, it wasn't uncommon for people to try and find coal on the slag heaps (essentially the waste material from the pits) to heat their homes.  Most of the houses in the area were still powered by coal at the time.  There were a few deaths during the strike from teenagers trying to find coal for their families.  I have a distinct memory of standing at the school bus stop one morning when news of one of the deaths was being discussed around us.  The boy had relatives in the village, so news had filtered quite quickly within the small community.

Reading your post triggered the memory in a really vivid way, even though it's not something I've consciously thought about for years.

[arbboy]

The list of potential candidates for Labour leader is so underwhelming. I always remember when there is shouts, or a need, for a new leader then there's always a popular choices around the benches. Boris, Miliband brothers, etc.

But I gasp at what's on offer.

RLB, Burgon and Thornberry are all definite no's for me.

I probably wouldn't mind Starmer.

But I also wouldn't mind it being someone radically new who's not been mentioned. 

Step forward yourself lolrron.  You would fit in perfectly.   

[Sheriff Fatman]

I think this is an excellent, balanced analysis of Labour's current issues.

"It’s a long road back for Labour from a wreckage of its own making"

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/politics/article/labour-jeremy-corbyn-general-election?amp&fbclid=IwAR1FtHZ-ISYr6ElpbVoHT4AB7Fq5Tii5zqxGFaAMbKmSFx5PInLngcfwsdg

[TightEnd]

A brilliant and devastating essay by the NS on "well-born London liberals without experience of the frustrations and struggles of daily life in the small cities and faraway towns". Draws on Orwell...

https://bit.ly/2spWYx4

[TightEnd]

A fantastic analysis of 2019, especially considering how quickly it came out.

Tl;dr Labour played bad hand badly on Brexit, had bad leader and bad tactics.

https://wixlabs-pdf-dev.appspot.com/assets/pdfjs/web/viewer.html?file=%2Fpdfproxy%3Finstance%3DiBswIT2p9at087yYCR0-m7HrobFzltC3hVDVyQDzopg.eyJpbnN0YW5jZUlkIjoiMzkxN2ZiN2UtMDg0ZC00NWNkLThkM2QtOGY5M2YxNzc5YzhlIiwiYXBwRGVmSWQiOiIxM2VlMTBhMy1lY2I5LTdlZmYtNDI5OC1kMmY5ZjM0YWNmMGQiLCJtZXRhU2l0ZUlkIjoiYjBkZjY1MTQtYjA3NS00NzFhLTkwODEtNTgwZGEwMzEyYTc4Iiwic2lnbkRhdGUiOiIyMDE5LTEyLTE0VDE5OjUyOjQ4Ljg2NVoiLCJkZW1vTW9kZSI6ZmFsc2UsImFpZCI6IjdmMDlhOTk4LWU3ZjMtNDA0Mi1iOGZhLTA5OTdlNWYyODdkNCIsImJpVG9rZW4iOiI4OWM4OWU2YS1iODM4LTAyZDctMWRiYy1kNzllNTE0NmI2ZjYiLCJzaXRlT3duZXJJZCI6ImJiZjYwMDFkLWNmN2QtNDAxNC1iYzE3LWJmNzE4MWU4ZmFiMyJ9%26compId%3Dcomp-k45vh8ar%26url%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdocs.wixstatic.com%2Fugd%2Fbbf600_1b99043caffb45608050332719e19571.pdf

[roshambo]

Apart from the obvious answer of - because they're racist - there was a massive amount of discussion about how it's all related to poverty and the North being decimated and devestated by the Tories. From what they wrote I would have guessed that the North is like some kind of Mad Max-ian post apocalyptic wasteland where the poverty stricken working class can only scrimp they're survival by digging in the dirt for the occasional fragment of coal to keep them going.

I know this was said in jest, but this wasn't far from the truth during the miners' strike in 1984-85, and living through this as the son of a coal miner is the significant factor in why I will never vote Tory in my lifetime.  Ironically, over 15,000 people within the Hemsworth constituency where I grew up managed to overcome this reluctance last week, which was probably the most stark statistic for me as to Corbyn's legacy.

In the height of the strike, it wasn't uncommon for people to try and find coal on the slag heaps (essentially the waste material from the pits) to heat their homes.  Most of the houses in the area were still powered by coal at the time.  There were a few deaths during the strike from teenagers trying to find coal for their families.  I have a distinct memory of standing at the school bus stop one morning when news of one of the deaths was being discussed around us.  The boy had relatives in the village, so news had filtered quite quickly within the small community.

Reading your post triggered the memory in a really vivid way, even though it's not something I've consciously thought about for years.

I'm always astonished when people say this, (Sturgeon said something similar on QT a few weeks back). How can people say that they will never do something in the future? Things change, 40 years before the strikes we were at war with the German's, now we have hysteria that we are trying to break up from them and the EU, things change, Governments change their policies. How can someone be happy to forgive and move on from the worst atrocity in modern age but not be willing to envisage a time they may agree with a political party regardless of their manifesto? it's this kind of party politics that has reduced the modern political picture to a farce.

Surely you'd look at each party on their policies and what you feel is going to be best for you and your core beliefs?

[StuartHopkin]

Is the vote that is likely to happen on Friday classed as a 'meaningful vote'?

[mulhuzz]

Is the vote that is likely to happen on Friday classed as a 'meaningful vote'?

meaningful vote has a specific meaning in terms of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.

Essentially, for a vote to be 'meaningful' it has to encompass both Withdrawal Agreement, as well as the Political Declaration.

I'd be surprised if the coming vote on Friday wasn't meaningful (as in order to become law by Jan 31st he needs to have one) but it might not be in order to give him the opportunity to re-visit the declaration bit. Particularly those parts on level playing field etc he might be minded to try and change.

It's worth noting that the meaningful vote is *only* for the HoC, not the Lords. The vote is what sets up the Government's introduction of the Bill to ratify the WA. The proper scrutiny to be provided by the Lords (and, indeed, the Commons) will happen when (or, one supposes, if) the Bill is introduced.

Good primer here: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/parliament-and-elections/parliament/the-meaningful-vote-a-users-guide/

[Sheriff Fatman]

Apart from the obvious answer of - because they're racist - there was a massive amount of discussion about how it's all related to poverty and the North being decimated and devestated by the Tories. From what they wrote I would have guessed that the North is like some kind of Mad Max-ian post apocalyptic wasteland where the poverty stricken working class can only scrimp they're survival by digging in the dirt for the occasional fragment of coal to keep them going.

I know this was said in jest, but this wasn't far from the truth during the miners' strike in 1984-85, and living through this as the son of a coal miner is the significant factor in why I will never vote Tory in my lifetime.  Ironically, over 15,000 people within the Hemsworth constituency where I grew up managed to overcome this reluctance last week, which was probably the most stark statistic for me as to Corbyn's legacy.

In the height of the strike, it wasn't uncommon for people to try and find coal on the slag heaps (essentially the waste material from the pits) to heat their homes.  Most of the houses in the area were still powered by coal at the time.  There were a few deaths during the strike from teenagers trying to find coal for their families.  I have a distinct memory of standing at the school bus stop one morning when news of one of the deaths was being discussed around us.  The boy had relatives in the village, so news had filtered quite quickly within the small community.

Reading your post triggered the memory in a really vivid way, even though it's not something I've consciously thought about for years.

I'm always astonished when people say this, (Sturgeon said something similar on QT a few weeks back). How can people say that they will never do something in the future? Things change, 40 years before the strikes we were at war with the German's, now we have hysteria that we are trying to break up from them and the EU, things change, Governments change their policies. How can someone be happy to forgive and move on from the worst atrocity in modern age but not be willing to envisage a time they may agree with a political party regardless of their manifesto? it's this kind of party politics that has reduced the modern political picture to a farce.

Surely you'd look at each party on their policies and what you feel is going to be best for you and your core beliefs?

Simple.  My core beliefs will never align with the Tory Party, ever.

There hasn't been a Tory government in my lifetime which hasn't systematically fucked over the community I grew up in.  It's in their fundamental DNA of protecting their own interests, no matter what the cost elsewhere.

That's an immovable position, and will never change.  Rather than being a supporter of any political party my fundamental political viewpoint is anti-Tory.  There is literally nothing they could offer to make me ever consider voting for them, because that would make me a hypocrite.

[ripple11]

 Talk of RLB and Rayner "dream ticket" tonight.

I use the word dream lightly 

[Doobs]

Talk of RLB and Rayner "dream ticket" tonight.

I use the word dream lightly 

It could be worse, they were talking about Richard Burgon as deputy leader earlier.  He comes across as maybe a hair's width more intelligent than Mark Francois.  Glad they are using this few months of breathing space Corbyn is giving them to properly analyse this learn nothing.

I don't think Raymer is that bad, though she did somehow manage to come off worse than Michael Gove in his tweet battle with Stormzy.

There is just a big disconnect between what the membership see as the qualities of the best leader and what the labour voters see as the qualities of the best leader.  To their cxredit Corbyn and McDonell seem to be willing to shoulder some of the blame, but they have to look at that manifesto too.  It is ok saying that policy X is popular and it may well be, but including that policy with way too many other policies just leaves voters going really? and can we afford this?  Rail nationalisation may well be popular with voters, but it seems pretty clear that ral nationalisation and 100 over things weren't.  Given it doesn't even look possible to do their whole wish list in one term, just concentrate on what really matters to most of their voters: NHS, Education, fairer society, taking some of the sting from the austerity cuts out,  investment in the North, maybe just aim at an easy Nationalisation such as rail, some green policies that are achievable, in the first term.   That kind of things and it isn't meant as a full list.  Some stuff that is affordable, achieveable and can change their voters lives for the better.  There may well be (another) opem goal if Brexit goes badly, don't feck it up.

Oh and maybe just pick someone a bit more removed from the failed leadership.  Most of the candidates seem to be on the left of the party, and I don't think picking a Blairite is really needed, but pick someone without the baggage of Rebecca Long Bailey.

[nirvana]

I tried looking for leaders a little while ago and it was really hard. One of the problems I suppose is people don't often look like leaders until they are. Boris Johnson was a bit different in this regard in that, love him or loathe him, he is an obvious leader.

I would have said someone like Ashworth until bantergate. Mind you, he could use his banter with the wider electorate to show he was ahead of the curve.

Of the current leading candidates I really don't think Starmer has the kind of appeal people think he might have and Lisa Nandy looks the best bet for me with 5 years to grow in the role. Not cause she's northern or a woman or even handed on Brexit - just that she seems fairly normal, authentic and doesn't sort of cry/whine when she's speaking.

[Doobs]

I tried looking for leaders a little while ago and it was really hard. One of the problems I suppose is people don't often look like leaders until they are. Boris Johnson was a bit different in this regard in that, love him or loathe him, he is an obvious leader.

I would have said someone like Ashworth until bantergate. Mind you, he could use his banter with the wider electorate to show he was ahead of the curve.

Of the current leading candidates I really don't think Starmer has the kind of appeal people think he might have and Lisa Nandy looks the best bet for me with 5 years to grow in the role. Not cause she's northern or a woman or even handed on Brexit - just that she seems fairly normal, authentic and doesn't sort of cry/whine when she's speaking.

I think Lisa Nandy is a good choice.  She is on the left, but has enough to appeal to both sides of the party, and that is what is needed now.  We have had several years of Corbynistas this, Centrists that.  They need someone everyone can unite behind and move on. 

[RickBFA]

With big chunks of Labour activists in denial about the reasons for losing (“it’s all down to Brexit and our policies are popular, we won the arguments” delusion) and the make up of the membership and NEC, it means only one realistic outcome.

It’s going to be someone to continue the Momentum/Corbynism project. Probably Rebecca Long Bailey.

These people are so obsessed with maintaining an ideology that they can’t see the woods for the trees.

[DaveShoelace]

With big chunks of Labour activists in denial about the reasons for losing (“it’s all down to Brexit and our policies are popular, we won the arguments” delusion) and the make up of the membership and NEC, it means only one realistic outcome.

It has been the political version of this scene