schoolgirl who joined IS but wants to come home.

[4KSuited]

Just watched a segment on BBC London about a 13 year old Asian (I think Pakistani, but I'm not sure, as her identity was withheld - of course). Her parents told her she was going to marry a 22 year old that she'd never met. She couldn't refuse, so she resorted to taking an overdose of medication in the hope that this would lead her to be rescued by social services. Her hopes were dashed, since she was returned to her family, who then scorned her for bringing shame on the family by OD'ing.

Her only recourse was to run away, aged 13, in order to escape the fate planned for her.

The reason I'm recounting this, is because I don't think anyone here would conclude that she was making a bad decision, or that she was incapable of making the right decision at the age of 13? None of the people involved in the TV piece made any suggestion that the girl was wrong to take responsibility for her own life-changing decision.

And yet there's lots of folks who have expressed the view that Shameema Begum was only 15, a child, and therefore incapable of making good decisions for herself.

Also, the SNP passed legislation to enable 16 year olds to vote in the last Independence Referendum. Pretty sure we could all agree that there's a wide spectrum of maturity in children at all ages - particularly in the teenage years.

Perhaps I've only succeeded in arguing that there are no absolute definitions; just shades of grey, which means we can only assess each case on its individual circumstances. As far as Shameema Begum is concerned, I feel her actions were calculated, knowing precisely what she was doing - both in getting herself to Syria, and now her subsequent attempts to reach the safe haven of the UK. Felt sympathy for the child, of course, but not her.

[Woodsey]

Lass who I know told me she had a forced marriage (Indian heritage), first time I’ve heard anyone admit that openly. She got divorced a few years (and a couple of kids) later and was the black sheep of the family. She laughs now and says she paved the way for her 2 sisters to marry white guys which would have been a massive no no until her faux pas.....

[Karabiner]

Lass who I know told me she had a forced marriage (Indian heritage), first time I’ve heard anyone admit that openly. She got divorced a few years (and a couple of kids) later and was the black sheep of the family. She laughs now and says she paved the way for her 2 sisters to marry white guys which would have been a massive no no until her faux pas.....

It's a little more serious than a "faux pas" for Muslim girls of Pakistani heritage.

[Woodsey]

Lass who I know told me she had a forced marriage (Indian heritage), first time I’ve heard anyone admit that openly. She got divorced a few years (and a couple of kids) later and was the black sheep of the family. She laughs now and says she paved the way for her 2 sisters to marry white guys which would have been a massive no no until her faux pas.....

It's a little more serious than a "faux pas" for Muslim girls of Pakistani heritage.

Nobody says it isn’t, was just sharing a story, I was surprised she told me tbh.....

[MintTrav]

Just watched a segment on BBC London about a 13 year old Asian (I think Pakistani, but I'm not sure, as her identity was withheld - of course). Her parents told her she was going to marry a 22 year old that she'd never met. She couldn't refuse, so she resorted to taking an overdose of medication in the hope that this would lead her to be rescued by social services. Her hopes were dashed, since she was returned to her family, who then scorned her for bringing shame on the family by OD'ing.

Her only recourse was to run away, aged 13, in order to escape the fate planned for her.

The reason I'm recounting this, is because I don't think anyone here would conclude that she was making a bad decision, or that she was incapable of making the right decision at the age of 13? None of the people involved in the TV piece made any suggestion that the girl was wrong to take responsibility for her own life-changing decision.

And yet there's lots of folks who have expressed the view that Shameema Begum was only 15, a child, and therefore incapable of making good decisions for herself.

Also, the SNP passed legislation to enable 16 year olds to vote in the last Independence Referendum. Pretty sure we could all agree that there's a wide spectrum of maturity in children at all ages - particularly in the teenage years.

Perhaps I've only succeeded in arguing that there are no absolute definitions; just shades of grey, which means we can only assess each case on its individual circumstances. As far as Shameema Begum is concerned, I feel her actions were calculated, knowing precisely what she was doing - both in getting herself to Syria, and now her subsequent attempts to reach the safe haven of the UK. Felt sympathy for the child, of course, but not her.

Have I understood your point correctly? Are you really saying that because a thirteen-year-old made a decision you consider to be a ‘good’ one, anyone above that age has the capability to make good decisions (and won’t be given any second chances, or even sympathy, if they mess up)? That isn’t logic. People are different. They develop at different rates. An eight-year-old can make an excellent decision and a twenty-eight-year-old can make a terrible one. Indeed, the same person can make a fantastic decision at eight and a horrendous one at twenty-eight. Have you never made bad decisions, even over the age of twenty?

[Woodsey]

Just watched a segment on BBC London about a 13 year old Asian (I think Pakistani, but I'm not sure, as her identity was withheld - of course). Her parents told her she was going to marry a 22 year old that she'd never met. She couldn't refuse, so she resorted to taking an overdose of medication in the hope that this would lead her to be rescued by social services. Her hopes were dashed, since she was returned to her family, who then scorned her for bringing shame on the family by OD'ing.

Her only recourse was to run away, aged 13, in order to escape the fate planned for her.

The reason I'm recounting this, is because I don't think anyone here would conclude that she was making a bad decision, or that she was incapable of making the right decision at the age of 13? None of the people involved in the TV piece made any suggestion that the girl was wrong to take responsibility for her own life-changing decision.

And yet there's lots of folks who have expressed the view that Shameema Begum was only 15, a child, and therefore incapable of making good decisions for herself.

Also, the SNP passed legislation to enable 16 year olds to vote in the last Independence Referendum. Pretty sure we could all agree that there's a wide spectrum of maturity in children at all ages - particularly in the teenage years.

Perhaps I've only succeeded in arguing that there are no absolute definitions; just shades of grey, which means we can only assess each case on its individual circumstances. As far as Shameema Begum is concerned, I feel her actions were calculated, knowing precisely what she was doing - both in getting herself to Syria, and now her subsequent attempts to reach the safe haven of the UK. Felt sympathy for the child, of course, but not her.

Have I understood your point correctly? Are you really saying that because a thirteen-year-old made a decision you consider to be a ‘good’ one, anyone above that age has the capability to make good decisions (and won’t be given any second chances, or even sympathy, if they mess up)? That isn’t logic. People are different. They develop at different rates. An eight-year-old can make an excellent decision and a twenty-eight-year-old can make a terrible one. Indeed, the same person can make a fantastic decision at eight and a horrendous one at twenty-eight. Have you never made bad decisions, even over the age of twenty?

Maybe, but he never sided with ISIS.......

[4KSuited]

Just watched a segment on BBC London about a 13 year old Asian (I think Pakistani, but I'm not sure, as her identity was withheld - of course). Her parents told her she was going to marry a 22 year old that she'd never met. She couldn't refuse, so she resorted to taking an overdose of medication in the hope that this would lead her to be rescued by social services. Her hopes were dashed, since she was returned to her family, who then scorned her for bringing shame on the family by OD'ing.

Her only recourse was to run away, aged 13, in order to escape the fate planned for her.

The reason I'm recounting this, is because I don't think anyone here would conclude that she was making a bad decision, or that she was incapable of making the right decision at the age of 13? None of the people involved in the TV piece made any suggestion that the girl was wrong to take responsibility for her own life-changing decision.

And yet there's lots of folks who have expressed the view that Shameema Begum was only 15, a child, and therefore incapable of making good decisions for herself.

Also, the SNP passed legislation to enable 16 year olds to vote in the last Independence Referendum. Pretty sure we could all agree that there's a wide spectrum of maturity in children at all ages - particularly in the teenage years.

Perhaps I've only succeeded in arguing that there are no absolute definitions; just shades of grey, which means we can only assess each case on its individual circumstances. As far as Shameema Begum is concerned, I feel her actions were calculated, knowing precisely what she was doing - both in getting herself to Syria, and now her subsequent attempts to reach the safe haven of the UK. Felt sympathy for the child, of course, but not her.

Have I understood your point correctly? Are you really saying that because a thirteen-year-old made a decision you consider to be a ‘good’ one, anyone above that age has the capability to make good decisions (and won’t be given any second chances, or even sympathy, if they mess up)? That isn’t logic. People are different. They develop at different rates. An eight-year-old can make an excellent decision and a twenty-eight-year-old can make a terrible one. Indeed, the same person can make a fantastic decision at eight and a horrendous one at twenty-eight. Have you never made bad decisions, even over the age of twenty?

Have you actually read my post? If so, you certainly haven’t understood it.

[Pokerpops]

Just watched a segment on BBC London about a 13 year old Asian (I think Pakistani, but I'm not sure, as her identity was withheld - of course). Her parents told her she was going to marry a 22 year old that she'd never met. She couldn't refuse, so she resorted to taking an overdose of medication in the hope that this would lead her to be rescued by social services. Her hopes were dashed, since she was returned to her family, who then scorned her for bringing shame on the family by OD'ing.

Her only recourse was to run away, aged 13, in order to escape the fate planned for her.

The reason I'm recounting this, is because I don't think anyone here would conclude that she was making a bad decision, or that she was incapable of making the right decision at the age of 13? None of the people involved in the TV piece made any suggestion that the girl was wrong to take responsibility for her own life-changing decision.

And yet there's lots of folks who have expressed the view that Shameema Begum was only 15, a child, and therefore incapable of making good decisions for herself.

Also, the SNP passed legislation to enable 16 year olds to vote in the last Independence Referendum. Pretty sure we could all agree that there's a wide spectrum of maturity in children at all ages - particularly in the teenage years.

Perhaps I've only succeeded in arguing that there are no absolute definitions; just shades of grey, which means we can only assess each case on its individual circumstances. As far as Shameema Begum is concerned, I feel her actions were calculated, knowing precisely what she was doing - both in getting herself to Syria, and now her subsequent attempts to reach the safe haven of the UK. Felt sympathy for the child, of course, but not her.

Have I understood your point correctly? Are you really saying that because a thirteen-year-old made a decision you consider to be a ‘good’ one, anyone above that age has the capability to make good decisions (and won’t be given any second chances, or even sympathy, if they mess up)? That isn’t logic. People are different. They develop at different rates. An eight-year-old can make an excellent decision and a twenty-eight-year-old can make a terrible one. Indeed, the same person can make a fantastic decision at eight and a horrendous one at twenty-eight. Have you never made bad decisions, even over the age of twenty?

Have you actually read my post? If so, you certainly haven’t understood it.

I’ve read it. More than once. I’m not convinced that I understand it though.
You say, pretty clearly that the 13yr old who ran away from an arranged marriage made a ‘good’ decision.
Then you say that, because this 13yr old made a good decision the argument that Begum was too young at 15 to make a decision is invalid.
Throw in a bit of Scots 16 yr olds were given the vote in the IndyRef and errrr

I’m lost.

As, it seems were you, given your observation that you have  succeeded in arguing that there are no absolute definitions; just shades of grey, which means we can only assess each case on its individual circumstances.

Finally, we get back to the issue of your opinion about the state of mind of a 15yr old Muslim girl.


I am, actually, ambivalent about the fate of people who go off to support ISIS.
I am not ambivalent about politicians posturing and acting outside of International Law as it relates to the rights of it’s citizens.

[4KSuited]

Quite a few observers used Begum’s age as a defence for her choice to join ISIS. i.e. that she wasn’t old enough to be responsible for her decisions.

My intention was to quash this excuse, using the story about the 13 year old as a case in point.

It appears that the 13 year old has taken responsibility for her decision, whereas Begum wants the UK authorities to take responsibility.

Probably shouldn’t have pressed the “post” button.

[RED-DOG]

Quite a few observers used Begum’s age as a defence for her choice to join ISIS. i.e. that she wasn’t old enough to be responsible for her decisions.

My intention was to quash this excuse, using the story about the 13 year old as a case in point.

It appears that the 13 year old has taken responsibility for her decision, whereas Begum wants the UK authorities to take responsibility.

Probably shouldn’t have pressed the “post” button.

Haha.

I write and then delete at least 3 posts a day and the stuff that gets through is still mostly crap.

[MintTrav]

Quite a few observers used Begum’s age as a defence for her choice to join ISIS. i.e. that she wasn’t old enough to be responsible for her decisions.

My intention was to quash this excuse, using the story about the 13 year old as a case in point.

It appears that the 13 year old has taken responsibility for her decision, whereas Begum wants the UK authorities to take responsibility.

Probably shouldn’t have pressed the “post” button.

Haha.

I write and then delete at least 3 posts a day and the stuff that gets through is still mostly crap.

Not too many would take kickback on board like that instead of digging into defence or lashing out. Irrespective of who is right or wrong on the issue, respect for that.

[MANTIS01]

Daily Telegraph reporting today that Begum was an IS "enforcer" who helped to sew terrorists into their suicide vests and roamed the streets brandishing a Kalashnikov looking for women breaking the dress code. I also heard simply travelling to areas of conflict will now be an offence punishable by 10yrs in prison. Do liberals still think she's a sweet innocent child who simply made bad choices like any teen and should be welcomed home?

[Rexas]

I'd take that with a pinch of salt, surely that would have been reported earlier if it was the case? Feels like they're just trying to keep the story alive to get a few cheap views...

[BigAdz]

Daily Telegraph reporting today that Begum was an IS "enforcer" who helped to sew terrorists into their suicide vests and roamed the streets brandishing a Kalashnikov looking for women breaking the dress code. I also heard simply travelling to areas of conflict will now be an offence punishable by 10yrs in prison. Do liberals still think she's a sweet innocent child who simply made bad choices like any teen and should be welcomed home?

Now granted legal aid. So effectively she is no longer a Uk citizen but has been given access to yours and my taxes to finance, free, her application to come back.

What the fuck is up with this country?

Waiting for the usual suspects to pipe up now about fairness, human rights blah blah....

[Pokerpops]

Daily Telegraph reporting today that Begum was an IS "enforcer" who helped to sew terrorists into their suicide vests and roamed the streets brandishing a Kalashnikov looking for women breaking the dress code. I also heard simply travelling to areas of conflict will now be an offence punishable by 10yrs in prison. Do liberals still think she's a sweet innocent child who simply made bad choices like any teen and should be welcomed home?

Now granted legal aid. So effectively she is no longer a Uk citizen but has been given access to yours and my taxes to finance, free, her application to come back.

What the fuck is up with this country?

Waiting for the usual suspects to pipe up now about fairness, human rights blah blah....

Until the legal,process has been completed I would say she’s still a UK Citizen. As such she’s as entitled to Legal Aid as anyone else. Let’s not forget that she hasn’t actually been convicted of anything yet. Other than in the courtroom of the Little Sodoff Golf and Country Club that is.

blah blah blah blah

I understand completely where you are coming from on this issue btw, but there are some principles to which we should hold tight. Accessible legal advice for all in the pursuit of a fair trial being one of them.