The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[TightEnd]

Hard Brexiters have just discovered Britain is weaker than Ireland

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/04/hard-brexiters-britain-weaker-ireland-brexit-talks-irish-border-lesson?CMP=twt_gu

[TightEnd]

To prevent an Irish Sea border, Theresa May will end up pledging regulatory convergence with the EU.

It's a mess, says Robert Peston

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/12/to-prevent-an-irish-sea-border-theresa-may-will-align-uk-regulations-with-the-eu/

[RED-DOG]

the Simplest option is for the whole of the UK to remain in the Customs Union (not linked to free movement, majority of MPs support) - but Tory Brexiteers dictating British position.

I will not accept remaining in the customs union without free movement.

[TightEnd]

So what solution would you propose that keeps the peace in Ireland and respects the referendum result?

[RED-DOG]

So what solution would you propose that keeps the peace in Ireland and respects the referendum result?

There obviously isn't a solution Rich.

I would suggest that in future they don't have referenda that allow people to vote for the undeliverable.

The people who campaigned for Brexit should be the ones to explain to the electorate why they can't deliver.

I have absolutely no sympathy for Theresa May. She is fighting for a cause she doesn't believe in.

The simple solution to most political problems is to tell the truth, which in this case is, I don't know how to make Brexit work and I think we're better off staying in Europe.

I believe in democracy, but sometimes even democracy gets it wrong.

On this occasion, democracy should be allowed to admit it made a balls up an be given a second chance.
 

[Sheriff Fatman]

So what solution would you propose that keeps the peace in Ireland and respects the referendum result?

The only thing we voted for was to leave the EU.  May and the Tories have opted to choose the hard Brexit option which creates many of these complications.

The start point to a workable solution would be to accept single market access and free movement and build a deal around that.  We still leave the EU, so the referendum result is respected in full.  We didn't vote on the terms of any exit so no-one can claim otherwise (despite the fact that many will try).

The government didn't need to negotiate based on their 3 'lines in the sand' of no free movement, no single market access, no ECHR jurisdiction.  They chose to do so.  They also didn't need to weaken themselves via a snap election forcing them to be at the behest of the DUP (and plenty of commentators at the time of that deal pointed out the likely complications with Brexit of doing so).  Ultimately it was a move to enable them to stay in government, however unstable.  The mess we're in on the negotiation is entirely down to decisions made by May's government.

[RED-DOG]

So what solution would you propose that keeps the peace in Ireland and respects the referendum result?

The only thing we voted for was to leave the EU.  May and the Tories have opted to choose the hard Brexit option which creates many of these complications.

The start point to a workable solution would be to accept single market access and free movement and build a deal around that.  We still leave the EU, so the referendum result is respected in full.  We didn't vote on the terms of any exit so no-one can claim otherwise (despite the fact that many will try).

The government didn't need to negotiate based on their 3 'lines in the sand' of no free movement, no single market access, no ECHR jurisdiction.  They chose to do so.  They also didn't need to weaken themselves via a snap election forcing them to be at the behest of the DUP (and plenty of commentators at the time of that deal pointed out the likely complications with Brexit of doing so).  Ultimately it was a move to enable them to stay in government, however unstable.  The mess we're in on the negotiation is entirely down to decisions made by May's government.

Just for clarity, I would vote for brexit if we could keep free movement, single market access, and ECHR jurisdiction.

[RED-DOG]

Sorry Sheriff. If that sounds facetious, it wasn't meant to.

[StuartHopkin]

the Simplest option is for the whole of the UK to remain in the Customs Union (not linked to free movement, majority of MPs support) - but Tory Brexiteers dictating British position.

I will not accept remaining in the customs union without free movement.

Am I missing something Rich? I thought the Customs Union had to be linked to free movement?

[Sheriff Fatman]

Sorry Sheriff. If that sounds facetious, it wasn't meant to.

I didn't spot it as such, so not needed, but thank you all the same.

I did vote to leave, not for any strong opinions either way, but mainly as a reaction to Cameron and Osborne's negative campaigning.  However, I'm in favour of staying in the single market and of continuing free movement, as no doubt many other leave voters were.  Personally, I'm against ECHR jurisdiction as I don't see any issue with us adopting the elements of it that are worthwhile, whilst having the option to ignore others.

And that's my general point.  All I voted for was to leave the EU, nothing else.  I can't comment on anyone else's motives for doing so, and neither can the government who called the referendum.  It was a poorly thought out referendum, based on the assumption that there was no way that Leave could ever win.

Consequently, my big objection is that the Government opted to assume that immigration was the over-riding issue and instantly ruled out all options retaining free movement at the start of negotiations, which has ultimately backed them into the hole they now find themselves in.

The hard Brexiters have far too much influence in the whole negotiation process, so we're currently heading into a car crash outcome as far as protecting the UK's interests are concerned.  The only way I can see it changing is for the Government to fail, leading to another general election.  Timing wise, that's an awful choice with regard to the Article 50 deadline, but better than continuing to watch the current Government mis-handle things.  I have little faith in the current Labour Party, but if they ended up in Government post-election I suspect they'd do a better job on securing a positive outcome than the Tories would.

[DMorgan]

Am I missing something Rich? I thought the Customs Union had to be linked to free movement?

Customs Union gets you a frictionless customs border without free movement of people in exchange for budget contributions, ECJ jurisdiction, no say in setting the rules and no outside trade deals

EEA membership (Norway model) is in the single market but not in the customs union so you can do outside trade deals in exchange for free movement, budget contributions, no say in setting the rules, ECJ jurisdiction and a hard border

The only way to get any say in rules of trade (as I understand it) is to be an EU member state

Option 1 comes with the added bonus of seeing the look on Dr Fox's face

[PokerBroker]

So what solution would you propose that keeps the peace in Ireland and respects the referendum result?

Give Ireland back to the Irish.  Simples.

[TightEnd]

So what solution would you propose that keeps the peace in Ireland and respects the referendum result?

Give Ireland back to the Irish.  Simples.

As that is not going to happen, then it's not "simples" you have to square off the republic and the DUP

Law of unintended consequences for hard Brexiters well in play

[Jon MW]

So what solution would you propose that keeps the peace in Ireland and respects the referendum result?

Give Ireland back to the Irish.  Simples.

As that is not going to happen, then it's not "simples" you have to square off the republic and the DUP

Law of unintended consequences for hard Brexiters well in play

I would have thought more significantly it definitely wouldn't satisfy the pre-requisite of "keeping the peace".

[DMorgan]

So what solution would you propose that keeps the peace in Ireland and respects the referendum result?

Give Ireland back to the Irish.  Simples.

Reunification parties polled 38% in the 2015 GE,  41% in the 2017 GE