blonde poker forum

Sorry Mr Moves, I'm quoting you from another thread to help kick off a wee debate, in its own thread, on this age old topic. I'm sure he won't mind too much.


Would you happily support Germany as a European team?

If not, what's the difference. You are a member of the British Isles, you are also a member of Europe.

We choose to let our culture and freedom of expression, rather than geographical position, decide what team/teams we are going to root for. Personally I don't find this tragic, I find it fantastic.



I want one of the African, or smaller South/Central American nations to win the World Cup. These are the poorest nations and most in need of the economic ressurgence that a world cup win would bring.

If England won, I would be more likely to directly benefit from the aforementioned economic boom. A Scot rooting for england therefore, rather than indulging in an act of altruism, is just being selfish.

I am British not European, actually i'm English first.
So, GOOD LORD NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think England winning the world cup would NOT being an economic benefit for the home nations. All it would do is increase TV monies, wages, transfer fees etc then we would just see more foreign players here.

It's a huge financial benefit for a nation to host a world cup but not necessarily to win one.

I'm British, I support any of the British teams in one of these major competitions. I remember watching Scotland in 78 and 82 and cheerring them on as a teenager. Archie Gemmill's goal brought goosbumps to me then and I remember it fondly now for example.

However whilst I am too a European I do not feel an affinity with any of the other European teams. I reckon this is because the EC is a relatively recent political institution...we only joined in 74 for example...I do not have my family or my peers instilling Europeanism in me from a young age to the extent that I was taught to sing the national anthem or learnt about royalty etc etc in the 1970s

So no, I won't root for Germany...I don't have anything against them or France for that matter just I don't have that inherent feeling of being "European" like I do being "British". I'd rather shout for Ivory Coast or Ghana. The underdog if you will.

The "ABE" debate is one that will go round and round in circles on fora such as these. Most English do not get the "We hate the English" shouts that eminate from Scottish and Welsh sporting fans. Thus they ridicule it and put it down to chips on shoulders and inferiortiy complexes. In fact such notions are borne of hundreds of years of thoughts being ingrained in Scots/Welsh because of oppression in the 1700s/1800s

This is nothing different from it being felt in areas like Australia too hating the English...its an anti Imperial/anti colonial argument in essence that is perpetuated to this day as it passes down the generations

I do think my children and their children will feel progressively more European as the culture of being "European" spreads wider in schools and throughout society.

It certainly was for West Germany in 1954.

It kickstarted a wee move from wartorn nobodys to being one of Europe's economic leaders.

It can boost a country's moral and help it on the road to great things.

How about Argentina in 1986? Or day I say England in the mid sixtys? These guys hosted it aswell of course, so I'll go with the 1954 example.

I used to support the scots until about 15 years ago at various sports as long as England weren't involved. That all changed after living up there for about 2 years or so and experiencing the real anti English mentality by a significant amount of the population (its not a minority by any stretch of the imagination), in my view it almost bordered on racism.

I don't get annoyed when I hear this nonsense anymore I just take great delight when they fail at particularly rugby and football. Its particularly good when after winning a game or two and they have yet another false dawn, only to have their dreams squashed yet again.

The tables have turned for me!

I'm English

This would be a good thing. When that day comes, my argument may be quashed, but I'll be a happy man.

Congratulations ;)

Exactly my point, thankyou.

Don't expect the Scottish to feel British anymore than you feel European.

At the end of the day, we are all free to do feel how we like.

Why don't you like Germany, is it a cultural thing or a racist thing. I'm wagering it's more to do with culture, and that's pretty much why the majority of Scotland are ABE fans.

The difference is tankster...

We're all the same on these islands. Walk down glasgow, birmingham or dublin and you'll see the same shops, the same sorta pubs, the same culture.

I can associate with my scottish, irish and welsh mates. I can't with the french for example anything like the same.

Whatever you say all of us on these islands are more related by blood and culture than anyone in europe. I'll support england first cos its where i was born, but will stick by the scots, irish and welsh straight after. Screw Europe (oh, and london but thats a different story ;) ).

I have a tattoo to confirm my geographical origin of birth ;)

Good examples.

The West Germany "kick start" is just that though. A kick start. The economic boom that happened after was always going to happen if you look at the countries' potential at the time. Same can be said after Germany's 1990 victory as well (where it also was NOT hosted at home) as they had just been reunited as one Germany.

Argentina in '86 is a better example as they were a country in a bit of a pickle. (It was hosted in Mexico btw.) Yes it brought the country together and raised their moral etc but the financial implications were insignificant in comparison. It was still a mess for a long while after economically speaking.

I think this thread is both unnecessary and meaningless and i'm surprised that Tank of all people has started it.
We all know the English will never support Germany and we all know the Scottish will if they are playing England, it's daft and will just give another platform for anti-English views from our northern "friends?"
This thread was destined for disaster from the start and i think it should be deleted/locked now before it's too late.

tank,

do you think the majority of Scotland is ABE? Or is it concentrated to the sporting arena?


I only ask because the SNP remains a minority political party and the majority of Scots continue to vote Labour(esp in the cities) and sometimes Lib Dem in the highlands and islands. If the ABE sentiments were that widely reflected in  society, wouldn't the SNP be better represented in both the Scottish and English Parliaments?

Surely the better off rural borders areas aren't ABE?


I'm not trying to be controversial, just tthinking out loud

I'm wondering if this is a sporting rather than an overwhelmingly cultural phenomenon.

"In fact such notions are borne of hundreds of years of thoughts being ingrained in Scots/Welsh because of oppression in the 1700s/1800s"

If this is the case then that is really unfortunate.

 ;ifm; ;ifm; ;ifm;

I was just a bout to weigh in with a series of profoundly insightfull opinions pertainng to the domestic geographical sociology sorounding this most contentious of debatable issues.

I think i'll just slip off to the two word story for a while then!! :-X

I don't think the thread is destined for disaster and nor should it be locked. Maybe I am naive. I hope not.


If though anyone oversteps the mark...be they English, Scottish, German, Chinese or even Welsh, then of course we'll think again and will remove if need be.


Go on everyone, the tank has started this debate in sensible and intelligent fashion lets prove to ourselves most of all that we can have a good debate without things descending into flame wars or worse.

Thanks

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!

Thats a fair point, but if you go outside the cities, you will see a big difference between Montrose, Tipperary and Bury St. Edmonds.

Besides, Supporting anyone with a Marks and Spencer makes as much sense to me as not supporting anyone who doesn't have a Marks and Spencer.

Leaving aside the blood argument, and this islands history of invaders from all over Europe, I believe differences, not similarities should be celebrated with the most fervour.

That's one of the reasons I'll be rooting for Sweden. Hey, they've got an IKEA.

That was the kind of intent. We can discuss national identity without famining, or at least try.

Will be back after the footie finishes to answer your previous post. :)

Well, most people live in big cities, but even so I disagree tanky - England, Scotland and Ireland have really similar cultures, we listen to the same music, we watch the same tv, and we've all been interbreeding like jack rabbits for centuries. ;)

To be honest, I also find when my team goes out, I want whoever my mates are following to win. (I may take the piss out of them, but secretly I'm chuffed when they're happy and they're teams doin well.)

What about in poker then - if there are no scottish representatives in the world series say, I'll bet you still want the other brits to do well? I reckon this is a football rivalry thing ;)

No need to go as far as poker, I freely admit it is just a football thing.

Football is in fact the only sport in which I don't root for England (in the abscence of Scotland.)

I was happy when you won the Rugby World Cup, and delighted to see you re-claim the ashes.

Part of my culture is to "hate" the English. I make a personal choice for this to manifest itself in football (and nowhere else.) It is my sincere belief that national identity and patriotism should begin and pretty much end with sport.




Oscar Wilde said that patriotism is a virtue of the vicious, that's true. It's also very natural though, and needs an outlet.

I like England, my mother is English and that's where all the best Butlin's are. I jumped for joy when London won the 2012 Olympic bid and my personal politics at no point include the acronym SNP.

Still, I'd rather you didn't win the World Cup. I don't think this makes me a jealous "colonial" or a racist. I would view anyone who brands me as such as talking with a certain amount of ignorance and leave it at that.

I blame it all on the hot weather.

3-0, practically over, so I'll answer you now.


I have to admit that a large amount of my countrymen take things to the other level. Sometimes rough speaking Glaswegians can be misunderstood, and can be percieved as being racist when they are genuinely trying to be friendly. Despite that, there is bigotry aplenty up here.

In school, I certainly remember seeing the odd English pupil singled out and bullied because of their nationality.

I see the problem getting better though. I wouldn't put the bigots in the majority. For most of us, it begins and ends with sport.

I'm proud of the way the tartan army and Scottish club sides travel. We don't clash with police and wreck the town if we lose.

"I'm proud of the way the tartan army and Scottish club sides travel. We don't clash with police and wreck the town if we lose."

I must admit I am ashamed to watch Englishmen causing trouble abroad during footy tournies but I'm not sure what this sentence is meant to achieve in relation to the argument? ;goodvevil;

Is the small minority of English hooligans a reason to hate the rest of England forever?

"Damn those Turkish hooligans - I hope Turkey lose every game ever from now on because of this!"

I was bringing it up in the context of Tightend's question as to whether hatred and bigotry was inherent in the Scottish culture.

I'm not using it as an argument as to why I dislike England's national football side. Perhaps irresponsible of me to mention it in this thread, so I apologise. It wasn't meant in the spirit of a "dig" but I can see how it could be taken as such.

Thus far in 2006, and in 2002, the English fans can be proud of how they've handled themsleves.


...and in this thread, we've managed 2 pages of debate without degenerating into flaming. :) There is hope for the world.

Ahh ok - I see. My bad.

Yes I agree, I've never heard of Scottish fans causing trouble abroad.

England in the 70's

England's not really abroad though is it  ;)

Seriously though, that was outside of my lifetime, as was the 2nd World War and Culloden, so I don't bear a grudge.

You don't hear of English FANS causing trouble either.

Interesting thread Tank, I just hope it keeps calm!

BTW, I do support (and cheer on Germany) even when they are playing England (I actually cheer both on then!) as I was born over there  :D But like others have stated, once my "first team" is out, I like to root on the next "home team" and that is how I would view Scotland if they were in.   

I wonder if any support Scotland recieves from England is looked upon by us as being somewhat patronizing.

Nothing more frustrating than having a rivarly with a nation that doesn't have the decency to return your ill will.  >:( >:( >:(

Thankfully, as many posts I've seen on this forum over the last few months have proved, there are still plenty of English fans who view Scotland's humble efforts at the beutiful game with contempt and disdain.  :D

I'll concede that this point I made was rather weak.

What I perhaps should have said, is that the culture of Arsenal and Tottenham fans is somewhat similar blah blah blah etc etc etc.

Here is my 2p on this subject, I always support the England team when they play in the world cup, Its good to have a team to root for.

As for anti-English feeling that is harboured by SOME Scots, well even the most intelligent of people can be D.A.D.S ( Dumb As Dog Sh1t).

If we take Blonde Bash 2 as an example, A great time was had by all, no animosity existed due to differing nationalities, everyone got on great, as was the case with the visiting scots at BB1.

I believe the football rivalry is a friendly one, some times there are a few plonkers that cross the line, and as we know the press are never one to stop adding fuel to the fire.

Best of luck to England in the world cup, I hope the English team get as far as they deserve to, ( i mean that in a positive way) If they play well and get the right decisions i hope they go the whole way.

As for the ABE mentality, this thread was the first i heard about it.

Just one thing though, If that git Jimmy Hill comes on the telly after England win and starts all that anti Scottish nonsense I will write to points of view.

Cheers and peace to all of my southern cousins, well except for London, that place is full of forginers  :D

Just kidding!! ;goodvevil;

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't see an affiliation with the SNP and harbouring the odd ABE sentiment as going hand in hand. It certainly doesn't for me, I'm opposed to a Scottish Parliament and have no problem whatsoever with the major desicions being made in Westminster. That's real life, and ABE is just a sport thing.



By better off rural areas, are you talking about the Highlands? Ill will towards the English is perhaps stronger there. Changing of opinions happening much slower in rural areas and bad feelings about the Highland clearances in the late 18th and early 19th centurys are still strikingly evident in some parts.

I was referring to the Scottish borders in areas such as Hawick, which when I visited were both lovely and full of welcoming people, not an anti-english sentiment in sight

That said, I've never seen a problem when I've visited Edinburgh, Glasgow or Aberdeen either but then I have never done so for football events.

Ahhh, missed the border bit.

In countries like India and Pakistan, USA and Mexico the rivarly around the borders is more intense.

It's very encouraging that with Scotland/England this is not the case.

Even though they're well within their rights to do so, I'm sure if I went to York on a Sunday wearing a kilt, I could return home without being shot through the heart with a crossbow.

Well that's probably because India and Pakistan hate each other on the whole (plus the border changes from year to year) and the US and Mexian border towns are worlds apart in terms of wealth.

As far as I can see (call me a naive southerner) there is no reason for English-Scottish border towns to have tension.

You never see the scots making trouble abroad because they never bloody qualify.

PS: Braveheart - that film has a lot to answer for.

PPS: Lets just have a great britain team like the Olympics, that way we don't have to put up with this rubbish.

Agreed - then we might get a decent friggin manager for the national side!

You may have taken a wrong turn, this a thread for discussion, not ignorant flaming.

Oh, and I thought it was a thread for Scots to justify hating the english and wanting them to lose.
Nevermind ;)

Unless of course there is some valid reason for wanting any team to lose and not supporting your neighbours.

At the side of the page you'll see a scrollbar. You can use this to actually read the threads in future.

Oh dear, here endeth the discourse and debate. I find myself predisposed to flaming back instead.

Pity, it was interesting while it lasted.

Enough guys otherwise the bad cop Tighty will be locking and moving this sharpish.

I'm not sure it was entierly flamming and i dont think that you should ascribe the disscontinuation of the thread to gryffs post.

I think that it was digressive in its sentiment but in a non mallicious way.

This as been a great thread for me to just sit back and read, cant you just crack on.

Really, its the opitome of blonde, such a diverse collection of opinions articulated with concise insight.

from the most veerment of argued points to the less intricate of contentions ive read with an understated ebulliance.

keep it going lads

but be nice x

Really there is no justification of an ABE mentality without prejudice and dislike ( well, we know I mean hatred but I'm being nice here ), therefore anyone disagreeing with the ABEs are flaming - how can we have any "discussion" with that kind of setting...

It doesn't so why is it here?

My prior post was just having some fun because there really cant be any serious discussion within the context of this topic.

Sorry, bowing out of this thread here, continue the "discussion" by all means though.

It is nearly impossible to debate with those that deal in absolutes.

I think Tank has pointed out that you can have an ABE mentality without being hateful in his earlier post about the ashes and the rugby world cup. Made sense to me.

The discusiion was going on just fine up until now - so this thread has a good reason to be here. I for one, am tryng to understand the mentality behind this ABE thinking.

"My prior post was just having some fun because there really cant be any serious discussion within the context of this topic."

I do believe your post was in jest Gryff but I disagree. I think there already has been some good "serious" discussion in this thread.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes...

Indeed Obi-Wan.

you keep using the word "hate" gryff.

Why do you think that to adopt the abe philosiphy you have to hate england.

I'm going to sit out of this, rather surprising, debate.

Sorry to have stirred up trouble  0:-)

I am enjoying the debate, and am glad we have guys who self police it when it looks like going down wrong alleys.

Why is it surprising? blonde has some bright posters capable of making intricate points well. I applaud the attempt at pulling off this debate.

Not really, trouble, twas a good debate by most accounts. :)

No need to apologise today.  :D

I dont hate england. I dont hate english people. I dont hate anyone for being english. But I am most definitely one of the "anyone but england" brigade....because

- I hate the way that every match, every corner, every throw in, in every major championship has to revolve around the 23 man squad representing the St George's Cross. Listen to it - we could be watching Outer Mongolia playing Greenland at table tennis and the commontators will still end up talking about David Beckham and Co.

- I hate the constant references to ancient battles, which personalise every match the english team play. I saw some moron in the square in frankfurt with an inflatable spitfire. I mean, I must have been taught a different version of history at school, but the Allied forces consisted of a bit more than a few chaps from the home counties. Let's blitz fritz indeed.

- I hate the lack of grace which the media show whenever things dont quite go the way they should. Its always someone else's fault, not theirs, for building up the hopes of a nation when deep in their heart of hearts they knew the team wasnt quite good enough, but big headlines sell big papers.

- I hate the morons who for the past 30 years have tarnished the reputation of british football supporters throughout the world because they havent got the brains they were born with. It maybe a minority, but its a big enough minority to make front pages and lead items throught the civilized world.

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the picture.Speaking personally, I think it would be great if at World Cup time, we could lend our support to the three lions, but that is still a long way off.

Most of the things you describe there laz are down to the bloody media and there incessant crap. (The xenophobia in rags like the sun for example is ridiculous. )

Thing is most of us below the border hate the media too, their london-bias and their jingoistic, pseudo-patriotic crap. The incessant ranting about rooney for instance has been beyond the pail. I hates em - they don't give a monkey's about any home nations doing well, they just wanna make dosh and the team be damned.

In fact nevermind just the football, the tabloids do more damage to scottish and english relations and then anything else I can think of, and i hope noone buys their "we're just reflecting the nations mood" rubbish.

This is surely ludicrous...to hold these convictions against the English largely because of the antics of the tabloid press and some uneducated supporter morons is like me saying "I want Scottish teams to lose because Mel Gibson made a very pro Scottish film in which he painted his face blue and white and shouted in a mock Scottish voice and pretended to murder English people"

I'll support the Scots at anything including Elephant Polo as long as they are not playing England.

I ignored Mel Gibson. I suggest you ignore the media if it distorts your normally sensible view that much.

Interesting thread... but however you dress it up, it really is a football thing, I personally love it when Scotland lose and I fully appreciate the Scottish boys revelling in an England defeat.

We dont want to kick 7 bells out of each other, we just like to have a chirp or give a rub down when the results go the way we want them too.

It is the same for @rse & Spurs fans, we work together, play together,drink together.... but will never want each others team to win anything. Its just the way it is.

I cant wait for Scotland to qualify for a major championship, since they stopped making any more "only fools and horses" we need another bloody good comedy on tv ;)

rotflmfao

While neither agreeing, nor disagreeing, with the points made by Lazaroonie, I think the comparisom of one singular motion picture written by an American, to several tabloid newspapers published every day, over the course of many years, is not altogether a fair one.

Ignoring a film is possible, ignoring the media is slightly more difficult. It's scope goes beyond that of just the printed page, Laz saw the man with the inflatable spitfire on the telly.

Kev makes a lot of sense. Just a football thing folks.

I take exception to the last sentence, but they'll be plenty oppurtunity to extract revenge for that kinda remark in a week or so. ;)

Fair enough, the analogy I made with the film was an unfair one stilted in my favour. I apologise.

Surely though most people with half a brain, and Laz has an excellent brain, should take the witterings and xenophobic claptrap of the tabloids and the consequent spitfire wielding antics of the "fans" who blindly get brainwashed by their output with a huge pinch of salt and recognise that it is not reflective of the vast majoritiy of people's views.

That said, millions of people a day buy the red-tops...a whole different debate but one which supports Laz not me to be fair

Following on from this thread. I'd recommend you all watch this. Stewart Lee does a gig in Glasgow where he rips into both the Scottish and English, and does this whole section on Braveheart and says that William Wallace was gay (because he wore a skirt), but that that was a good thing because Scotland wasn't afraid to have a national hero who was gay, where as England's heroes weren't so progressive. Anyway it's very funny and worth watching whether you're a 'scot' or a er....'an eng'.
(http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B000AOEX40.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)

Except Rangers who are the only club in scotland with an affinity towards England - coincidence?  :D

Right, lets get back to the matter in hand.  Its not about hate, its sporting rivalry.  I don't want to see England win at anything.  Infact I take joy from seeing you boys loose.  The main reason for this is as a scot we are reminded of all the English achievements at every turn, through your biased commentators.  If you could win with grace then I think that would dilute much of the problem.

The whole idea of Britain is only to make England more powerful, the thoughts and wishes of the Scots, Welsh and the occupied part of Ireland are not often considered when any decisions are made, even in the sporting arena people from within the Isles are only classed as British when it suits the English media. 

Take examples from any sport when any the Celts are doing well theya re considered to British but when they are not performing then automatically they revert back to being from the country of birth.  Colin Montgomery, Paul Lawrie, Barry McGuigan, Ian Woosnam, Liz McColgan, Lee McConnell they have all suffered like this at the hands of English commentators over the years no doubt the same will be said of Andy Murray in years to come.

In regards to Nationality I would describe myself as a Celt.  I was born in Scotland, but like many others in the West of Scotland my family are origianally from Ireland and that is something I have never forgotten, I hold both a British and Irish Passport.  If travelling abrod, I tavel on my Irish passport.  If meeting anyone abroad of I would never describe myself as being British.  Its the negativity that surrounds it.  Britain had committed so many atrocities in many countries over many years. British no thanks - I can't wait for the day that we can travel as Europeans!

It is just before the England v Brazil match. Ronaldinho goes into theBrazilian changing room to find all his teammates looking a bit glum.

"What's up?" he asks.

"Well, we're having trouble getting motivated for this game. We know it's important but it's only England. They're sh*te and we can't be bothered."

Ronaldinho looks at them and says, "Well, I reckon I can beat them by myself. You lads go down the pub."

So Ronaldinho goes out to play England by himself and the rest of the Brazilian team go off for a few jars.

After a few pints they wonder how the game is going, so they get the landlord to put the teletext on. A big cheer goes up as the screen reads " Brazil 1 - England 0 (Ronaldinho 10 minutes)". He is beating England all by himself!

Anyway, a few pints later and the game is forgotten until someone remembers, "It must be full time now, let's see how he got on." They put the teletext on.

"Result from the Stadium 'Brazil 1 (Ronaldinho 10 minutes) - England 1 (Lampard 89 minutes)."

They can't believe it; he has single-handedly got a draw against England!! They rush back to the Stadium to congratulate Ronaldinho. They find him inthe dressing room, still in his gear, sitting with his head in his hands.

He refuses to look at them. "I've let you down, I've let you down."

"Don't be daft, you got a draw against England, all by yourself. And theyonly scored at the very, very end!"

"No, no, I have, I've let you down. I got sent off after 12 minutes."





Sandy

I support the Scots/Welsh/Irish (including the Republic of Ireland) teams whenever they're playing, unless they're playing England.  This is partly because I identify much more closely with them than with the mainland European teams.  (Besides, if we dig back far enough we've probably all got some ancestry with at least one of these countries.)

The other reason is that they are usually among the underdogs to qualify for a tournament from their Group (there's usually one or two 'big' European teams in there) and I have a strong tendency to support the underdog.

Put the situation in reverse and this element is missing.  England, if anything, are hyped up to an extent beyond what their historic achievements deserve.  We're bracketed in the same category as Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Italy, etc but we've achieved far less historically than these teams.  Consequently, as a team who are consistently hyped beyond their abilities, we're an easy team to hate, and that's before we take into consideration any nationalism!

I don't pretend to understand the history/politics behind the anti-English sentiment among the Celtic nations.  However, I can understand from my own experience how these sentiments develop from an early age.  I grew up in an area where coal mining was the main industry for most people.  Within my family mine was the first generation which didn't automatically go down the pits as a career 'choice' upon reaching adulthood.  

Consequently, it was very hard, during the 1980's especially, to avoid anti-Southern sentiment when living within this environment (the 'North/South divide' was a very real thing in those days, less so nowadays!)  My point is not to argue the merits of this but to merely use it as an example.  If these prejudices exist and are passed on from generation to generation (as was the case at the time) within England itself then its not difficult for me to see how the same thing happens among the Celtic nations where there's a much greater weight of history available to support those prejudices.

I think the majority of people (as Tank and Laz have indicated by their posts here) merely take these sentiments to the extent of a bit of sporting rivalry, and that's how it should be.  After all, there's absolutely nothing wrong with displaying a bit of National pride.  However, there are a minority on all sides who view it as something far deeper than this, which can sometimes lead to problems.

The one puzzling thing for me is that the problems seem to be isolated to football rivalries.  They stopped the Home Internationals in the mid-80s because of all the crowd trouble and yet I'm not aware of any similar problems arising from 5/6 Nations Rugby matches which attract similar numbers of travelling supporters amongst the same national groups.

Sheriff

I don't agree with this at all bandit. This is the media yet again, and us in england feel something similar. What you are really talking about is a LONDON bias - all those backslappers in fleet street.

The rest of england hates them just as much as scotland so try to tarnish the rest of us with the cockney centre-of-the universe bias ;) Cracking example - national stadium should have been in birmingham. Second city, easy to get to from everywhere, the perfect place. But no. They stick it in some cess pit in the arse-end of London that noone can get to and will cost a fortune.

I'll leave comments about NI being an "occupied part" of Ireland alone. I suspect I might be struggling if I open up that one.

and the whole idea of Britain is to make England more powerful? Sorry, you've lost me....I thought the ABE thing was merely a sporting phenomenon according to most on here, clearly for a minority this is not the case

Don't national assemblies in Scotland, Wales and N Ireland help counter your thought that  "the thoughts and wishes...........are not often considered when any decisions are made"?

and

part of the problem is that the witterings and xenophobic claptrap is INCESSANT. It is a physical impossibility to watch any match in which John Motson is commentating, without every event in the match being linked somehow to the England team. That to be honest, is very alientating to non English people

England winning the world cup wont make me happy. But I will derive pleasure from knowing that some good friends of mine would be happy at that prospect. If that makes any sense.

I find it amazing and very sad that such feelings between nationalities, and even countries making up a nation, is so prevalent in today's society.

Believe me Portugal, Italy, Holland and Spain (all underachievers in football bar Italy) are all indoctrinated the same way in their countries about their national teams. The only difference is that the Scottish lads don't see this day in day out, hour after hour. It happens though.

After reading your post Bandit, I struggle to find where being British has a negativity surrounding it. I know you are a fairly level headed bright bloke and i would have thought these minor prdjudices are beneath you.

In history there have been atrocities committed by many different cultures and nationalities throught the ages, Is that any reason why we in this modern age should continue to carry a grudge?

I for one think not, Having both an Irish and Highland Scottish family ancestory I have an axe to grind as much as anyone else, yet on my CV, Passport and Driving License my nationality is British, I see no good can come of hanging on to old grudges. Take the Orange and Hibs marches as an example, what possible good comes from the grudges that these marches promote each year? None as far as I can see, similarly with holding grudges against the British nation.

Please dont take this post the wrong way, I just struggle to comprehend your reasoning.

Cheers

Billy

Glasgowbandit you are the reason this thread was a bad idea, very predictable stuff, nonsense of course.
The Ireland jab i didn't expect though.
As for golfers who play for "Great Britain & N Ireland" in comps and "europe" in others your argument is pretty much dead, same with athletics Liz McColgan runs under a British flag.
There is no doubt Britain have raped and pillaged their way across the world, history is quite clear on that but the contributions to other societies are also there for all to see.

I'm of Irish descent.

I support the Irish football team.

Ireland didnt make it to the world cup.

I dont give a f**k who wins it now, i'm not supporting anyone.

I'm happy though if i get to watch a month of good exciting football............

Not Gorilla????

Only a tiny bit

An Irish monkey, that explains everything!!!!! ;goodvevil;

no reason to support england so i'll support ABE

Would somebody like a piece of fish to go with that huge chip they have. So the media are to blame for your prejudice. As I stated on the other thread:

"Is it any real surprise that a British Broadcasting Corporation would have a bais towards one of the home countries. If Wales and Scotland or Northern Ireland had qualified they would also be strongly covering them and before I receive the counter arguement that their covered would not be to the same level I'm sure it would be in realition to the demographic profiles.

Hey in the past the Britsih media have even strongly been supporters of a non Britsh World Cup finalist Eire and I don't recall many if any English bemoaning the covered of a non Britsih country."

I agree it is boring listening to the constant England talk, I wish Strachen, Hansan, Dowie and Lawerson would shut up. I also don't recall any bias reference to England in competitions that they failed to qualify such as in 1994 USA. Maybe the key consideration is that the media talk with reference to whatever home nation country qualifies at any given time.

It is so much easier to sit around and complain about it being unjust and unfair rather than focusing your own teams positives. Why not spend your energy one dreaming of qualifying yourselves rather than the demise of others. Envy is such an unattractive quality as is your prejudice.
 

I really don't agree with Mr Moves statement that Scottish fans should support the English which was the final line of his original post so therefore the point of whether we should support Germany is not of any real consideration. The fact is people are free to support whatever team they choose and if they wish to adopt other countries/teams that is their choice. The issue I do have and think Mr Moves had a fair point in making is the ABE (Anyone But England) attitude that is  frequentantly displayed by a number of our Celtic "friends" north of the border. If in jest it's not a issue but typically the motives for this ABE attitude is a result of an underlying conflict which is based on events that happened hundreds of years ago.

Well news flash, that was in the past and something we should learn to move on from, but sadly it appears some people can't. I prefer to deal with today and look forward to the future rather than continue fueds which my ancestors had.

Kid yourself if you think your prejudice is born from any media bias, I however suspect differently.

I agree bothe are bad qualities, good job that me wanting England to get humped is born of neither.

So the question is... What is it born out of?

You dont have it in cricket or ruggers, so why footy? Answering that may shed some light....

Simple, Football teams are linked to towns etc .. where as cricket teams are county based, and Rugby is a game played by fat blokes who were never good enough to play football.

A football team represents the town where you live ( unless you are a Man utd fan, in which case you live in surrey) People rightly or wrongly feel proud and defensive of the place that they live and football  is, and has, been the major outlet for the working class man to shout and sing and shake off all the worries and stresses of a hum drum working week.

Its about loyalty and a sense of belonging.... kind of like gang mentality.  And as much as the prawn sandwich brigade are trying to take the game away from the working man, football rivalry will ALWAYS prevail.

I love all the banter and heated debates about football... I am old enough and wise enough not to make any insults personal, but lets be honest, there is nothing quite like giving a mate a lengthy rub down when his team has just been beaten :D

no Rugby is a game borne of upper classes not the working man, unless you are talking about Rugby League

It is almost as if the working class man who supports football needs a team rivalry and a sense of belonging to a tribe and hides that basic animal instinct behind religion, hatred of the English media etc


Now that I have broadened the debate into class, lets really see the fireworks start!

[/quote]



Kid yourself if you think your prejudice is born from any media bias, I however suspect differently.
[/quote]

Suspect all you like, you seem to have made your mind up anyway. Like it or not the media is the main reason behind the ABE brigade up here. Granted there are others who do dislike England for there own reasons but I wouldnt waste my energy getting upset with such people.


Thank you for allowing us a level of coverage in relation to our demographic profile, how very magnanimous of you  rotflmfao

Don't see any mention of this when the TV licence is due for renewal, am I due a rebate?

Two words - Beckham, Rooney

Your just itching to lock this thread ;ifm; ;ifm; :D

Guys

My last point about class is firmly tongue in cheek! Please don't bite!


Meanwhile, I have had cause to delete a number of posts by a new member who has posted anti catholic abuse in response to certain posts on this thread

Of course this is completely unacceptable and he has been immediately banned, unreviewable.

If the gentleman manages to get back on (via another terminal for example) Please do not react, merely report the post to any mod or PM a mod you see on here and we will deal with it immediately.

Please do not let this thread descend to that type of stuff whatever side of the debates you are coming from.


ta

I enjoy the irony of those who insist the ABE thingy must contain prejudice.

You would expect a person who holds this negative trait (prejudice) to be of one opinion on matters, and not be open to any others.


Does anyone else see where I'm coming from here?  :D

I went to www.rooneyrooneyrooney.com

My browser said the site could not be found, so I assume he must still be injured.

This is a very interesting thread; shame it's all the way up here in one of the child boards I never look at.

I always took the ABE-in-football idea to be am extension of the same phenomenon that prevents me, as a childhood Everton supporter, from rooting for Liverpool to win the Champions League, even if they happen to be the sole English representative in Europe. Or for that matter, that prevents me - as someone who lives in a very pro-Spurs part of the world - from rooting for Arsenal when they play in Europe.

In other words, as Tank says, it's a sports-thing. It doesn't mean I hate Arsenal supporters. Even my mother claims to be an Arsenal supporter, although I'm convinced that's just because Colin Firth was in 'Fever Pitch'. Or possibly she just likes watching Thierry Henry.  :dontask:

Bringing in concepts like the English suppression of Scotland might just therefore be a bit misleading - is it not just a case of near neighbours and therefore near rivals?

As I see it, as one broadens the phenomenon to include the National/International Game, there is always the danger of clouding the issue by bringing in xenophobia, and certainly there are aspects of the media who are very good at that. But really, it's just a sports thing.

My parents are from the US, so I do support the States as well when they play in these things (unless they're playing England); I have an aunt who lives in Italy, so I also hope that Italy do well (unless that conflicts with other affiliations), and for that matter I can think of several other teams with increasingly tenuous connections to my life, that in a pinch I could root for... just because the standard position of human beings happens not to be perched on a fence.

We like picking sides. Under certain circumstances it's very tempting to take that tendency too far.... "if you're not with us then you're against us", and so on.

Back to the original issue: Scotland and ABE. I don't mind if people from Scotland enjoy watching England lose. Just don't expect me to return the favour, I really hope that Scotland qualify for the next major tournament, and while we're at it, I hope Wales qualify as well...

i have to admit 1994 the media was just as biased to the Republic of Ireland as they are normally to England but come on what has the Rep of Ireland got to do with Britian and the BBC correct me if i am wrong but people in Eire dont pay a liecence fee so the BBC should treat them the same as they treat france.

In this world cup i will follow team that i feel a conection too, south american teams cause they play good football, asain/afrian/central american teams cause its about time a team from outside the major power houses win the cup
germany as i spent the best year in my life on the piss while there in the BRITISH army france as my celtic brothers
Italy due to our mutaul love of the ladies, spain/portugal due to the fact i am going to imagrate to the sun
former eastern european teams as a win in the world cup would be such a finaicail boost for the countries involved
sweden cause i respect larsson for not being a greedy money grabber and he deserves the medal
switzland for have the balls to remain netreul while all around them are going mad

so that leaves england and holland and if they play each other i will go for a mile walk (without my wheelchair) it should take the 2hrs+ needed to miss it

Really have no idea if that was written toungue in cheek, or deadly serious.

 :goodpost: either way  :D

Who insisted MUST, I know I haven't. Maybe it's easier to respond by changing the context of somebody's actual comment to try discredit it.

It's interesting how many Scottish people always adopt a team that is in direct competition to England. Shear concidence obviously.  ::)

Personally I couldn't give a stuff who is anti England or not, I just think it's a tad sad that some people are reduced to being so negative of other countries chances because they are unable to support their own mediocre team. 

I was watching a little (just a little, honest guv) of the Big Brother punditry and heard some random musings which I believe may pertain to these issues.

One of the girlies in there, Grace, hasn't done that much wrong, but is on the recieving end of a huge wave of public disdain. One of the pyscho-analytical dykes on channel 4 said they think it's because we, as a nation, love to root for the Underdog. Grace had put herself in a Queen-Bee role, and the public resent this en-masse. She assumed the role, rather than having it bestowed on her, and now the Great British public are holding her to account.

A parallell could be drawn between Grace in the big brother house, and the England team. Yes, it is the media that have popped the team on a prematurely erected plynth, and not the fault of Sven and his men. When it comes to public opinion though, that doesn't matter much.
Both entities assume a greatness that has not yet been earned.

The current odds on Betfair for Grace to be evicted on Friday would suggest that the attitude partially responsible for a lot of the ABE thinking is indicative of the entire country, not just Scotland and Wales.

Just some thoughts.
 

I know, I tried to search your posts in this thread for an example I could use. Unfortunately you use too many of those pesky words like 'maybe' 'could' and 'possibly'.  >:(


Of course it is, but I'm happy to attempt to discredit aswell. That's what I've been mostly doing during this thread.

Tell me what your central argument is, and I'll have a bosch at it.  ;)

My point was nothing to do with what the expectation of coverage is due to who pays for a tv licence fee it was a case of pointing out that the Britsih media will support whoever they feel they have the strongest link with in any given competition. Naturally this is any of the home nations but in their absence they covered Eire. Following on from that observation I pointed out that we didn't have any cries of Eire bias by the media, it was just taken as natual as they were the only close team competing.

So should the media be taking about Wales, Scotland's and Northern Ireland during this competition that they have failed to qualify for. If you want less England coverage then it might help if you qualified in the future.

Ever thought I might be using those pesky words to play devils advocate and challenge some of the attitudes as displayed on this thread or are you suggesting that I am hiding behind my use of certain "could" and "possibly" words.

I prefer debates that actually consider what somebody states rather than what someone trys to manufacture has been said.  ;) 

I hope so, the devil needs as many advocates as he can get.  :D

Not suggesting you were hiding behind the words, it was more of a compliment. ( I like to throw a few of them in every now and then in a debate. It can confuse.  :D )

Language such as that suggests a groovy attitude, wherby the points you're making arn't necessary your iron-clad beliefs, merely thoughts you're projecting in the pursuit of intellectual discourse.

Keep on trucking.  :)up

Anyone think that the British pundits kiss Brazil's ass a bit too much?

They always spoken of highly due to past teams but never judged on their recent performances. If they've played crap it's "we don't know what gear they're playing in" instead of "they played crap".

Every Italian I know over here thinks they are the most overhyped nation in football.

Maybe it really is just our media that is great at overdoing it?

I mean between 1995 and 1998 Man U were "the best team in Europe" without ever actually winning the Champions League. Same from 2000-2004.

We do it with British sprinters, British boxers, British drivers AND the Brazilian footy team! :D

Jenson Button is a classic


Never acheived anything, yet he's young, pretty and British. Put on a pedestal by the sporting press and then when he achieves nothing knock him down. Give it 12 months from now.

Mark Lewis-Francis.

Amir Kahn.

Audley Harrison

Tim Henman

Andrew Murray

Chris Moneymaker

Joe Hachem

James Dempsey.


all overhyped by the press and then disappear into oblivion.........

Jason Bourne. He's not even British! Bauer would own him.

Mark Burchill

Liam Miller

er, thats it...talented young Scottish footballers to have emerged since 1990 and be overhyped



joke, joke.....

What a joke he is!

yes Nem, but hyped to high heaven after Olympic gold with contracts to show fights on the BBC etc


Classic support the next big thing but drop em like a stone when they disappoint

He is a decent enough boxer, but doesnt have the heart after he made his millions.

Audley Heartlesson

Apollo Creed needs to take his back to basics.

She's lied, bitched, backstabbed and been generally unpleasant since Day 1 making her quite possibly the most unlikeable person on the planet (with the possible exception of Nikki).

Apart from that, she hasn't done much wrong!

Sheriff

Har har, Sherrif watches it.  :D

 ;scarymoment;

Watch it with the Betfair markets and the betfair forum open on screen- makes it a hell of a lot more interesting!!

Sheriff

sorry but i live closer to Norway than i do Eire i think london is closer to France than it is Eire, many people on the east coast are closer to the Holland etc etc

the MEDIA followed Eire because not many players from abroad played in the English league wheras Most of the irish players played in it.Also  they speak english in ireland. The media look for things to sell advertising (apart from the BBC but they have to follow the rest of the media or lose there viewing figures and then there funding) which means that the media will also look for someway of attracking englsih viewers/listener/readers as england out number the rest of us brits 10-1 due to the natraul english bias in the media its only natrual for the rest of the brits to look elsewhere for someone to support.
If another british team quailfied and england failed the media's best way to sell the story to the public is to go for the british angle and therefore try and drive the english towards supporting a british team proclaiming them british
so this world cup its England England England in 2010 if wales get thru and england dont it will be British Wales British
we live in a world where money speaks and the media is like everyone else they will look to protect there self intrest

Ahem, I do believe Liam Miller is Irish, so thats only one overhyped . . . . ;) ;D

One it is then


Unless you count that goalkeeper, what's his name, Marshall i think


Or Scott Severin. He's good too  ;goodvevil;


Can't think of any more  ;goodvevil;

Tightend, have you been drinking ?? ;) ;D

No more than usual

david marshall is only the 2nd best prospect in scottish goalkeeping he gets the attension as he plays for celtic rather than hearts

scot severin has never been and never will be classed as a footballer infact if aberdeen could get him of the payroll i would be a happy man

So there we have it, the reason for this thread.

Whoosh

For the record, the real reason I started the thread was to cheese off ifm.  :D  ;ifm;

(joke)

When I said "close" I wasn't refering to geographical location, but I suspect you already knew that. I am fully aware of the distances between our neighbouring countries. Support who you like, I really don't care, adopt whatever country you wish. I personally just find it a tad strange that many Scots always adopt a team in direct competition with England???. Justify the reason for the ABE attitude as a largely media bias creation and dismiss any other historical influences or nationalistic bias. It's strange however that the Welsh and Northern Irish are not as upset by this "media bias".
  
Maybe I should be considering an ABS attitude on account of all the whinging Scots who are clearly distressed by all the bias media, it's only polite that one should reciprocate, but then again on account your team rarely reaches the finals theres not much point.  ::)

Oh and England do so well in them!!!


Pizza anyone?????  ::) ::) ::)

the media will never allow it as they need a way to unite their patrons and they know they could never unite the public in an ABS or ABW campaign

This is the crux of it. Just football not politics  :goodpost: ;iagree;

I was thinking and realised that In the 1990's I too was afflicted by the "anyone but" attitude, so I think I can understand the scots lads standpoint.

Every day in the paper, every match of the day, every report in the sports pages was about bloody Man U. Non stop, all the time, incessant.

I got so sick of it I developed ABMU syndrome.

To this day I haven't shaken it. I'll support any premiership team in europe but cannot bring myself to cheer on the manure (and Birmingham City obviously, even though I have loads of mates who support em).  Go figure.

Please do. I actually prefer that to you guys rooting for us (which is, although well-meaning, sometimes a little patronising.)

Like I said before, nothing more frustrating than a rivarly with a country that doesn't bother to reciprocate. :)

It's all good, in the context of football slagging.

Don't worry if it's a whiley before we storm our next major championship. There's always the qualifiers to muff up, plenty mileage there.

I have just realised this...

Every time I watch the England national side I want them to get beat.

Every time I watch an English club side in Europe I want them to win..without exception.

Every time I watch the Scottish national side I want them to win.

Every time I watch an Scottish club side in Europe, apart from Celtic, I want them to get beat..without exception.

I'm in serious need of some counselling I figure  >:? >:? >:? :dontask:


 Td Th

Just curious TT

If Gretna made it to the UEFA cup final against FC Kakabingo, would you still want them to get humped?

Firstly at least England have qualified and have a chance however remote you think they are. Domino's pizza for me  ::)

One big difference between the fans is that the English fans at least get the opportunity to dream that they can win the event where as beyond the qualifying round our celtic brothers don't. I would much prefer to have the positive stance rather than adopting a negative ones towards a more successful neighbouring country.

Maybe the ABE fans would be better of channelling their energies into demanding more from their own countries performances and maybe even dream of final qualification. Who knows they may even start to believe they could get past the first round but then again let's keep things realistic.  ::)

Oh dear....I dont think I would.
However, if Gretna did reach the SPL and I had 20 years experience of being taunted by their fans
after unlucky defeats, avoiding knife wielding street thugs on the way back to the supporters buses,
being treated like sheet by batton crazy local policeman and having experienced other unpleasentness
that I do not feel is appropriate for this discussion then I would hope they get humped ,as you put it, as well.

 Td Th

I've got to strongly disagree with this.

Nowt to stop us dreaming, just like you guys, stranger things have happened.

See you in South Africa (if you make it)  :D

No offense taken. I've played the devils advocate and just thought I would start adopting a more direct response in the name of sport and see who would bite first :)

Indeed Tank there is nothing stopping you from dreaming about climbing the qualifying rounds from say 4th position to 3rd but that's keep it realistis qualification LMAO. The difference is the level of our dreams. So are we to have a little wager on South Africa 2010???.

Didn't work cuz i don't actually care what you lot think, i just wanted to say i told you so.

Same as that Jim.

 :dontask:

Which of the oracle's predictions have come true?

Actually, maybe this thread isn't as good as I first thought it was - we seem to have given up debating.

I don't think you can have it both ways, either the English are well-meaning, or they're patronising. I.e. either they're rooting for a near-neighbour in a genuine sense of hoping they do well, or they're "keeping an eye on the little-un", in order to make themselves feel superior.

From my experience, I genuinely hope Scotland do well - except when they're playing against England of course.

As other people have mentioned on this thread, I put this down to a sense of there being more that unites the countries of England and Scotland than divides them, although from what I've read already on this thread I'm sure I can count on several differing opinions on that score.

Certainly one could say there is probably even more that unites various people from one part of North London, but that didn't stop a whole bunch of Spurs fans from supporting Barcelona in the recent Champs League final... which also explains the ABE attitude of always choosing a team directly in England's path to support. It's a footie thing, transplanted onto the National stage.

Right, lets have a crack at this, in the spirit of debate, devils advocate, jadda jadda jadda

I'm sure you'll all get a good laugh out of this post.


Firstly, by more successful neighbouring country, are you referring to England being more successful than Scotland?

Well, here's one way of looking at the facts in regard to that. Scotland have won one internatinal competiton this year, the Kirin Cup. A 5-1 win over Bulgaria and a goalless draw with Japan was enough to secure that.

Without going too far down the lines of per capita success, I think we can be very happy with that.

Also, last time England played Scotland, in a playoff for Euro 2000 qualification, Scotland were the victors (aggregate schmaggregate.) Scotland triumphed over 90 minutes at Wembley.

If I bring per capita success into things, well that's too easy.  :D

Sure you guys won a World Cup, but that was in a different era. Scotland invented penecillin in a different era.

Anyway, my point is, I'm happy enough with rooting for Scotland for the time being.

PMSL - cant believe he didn't even mention Elephant Polo! :D

True, you can't have it both ways.

What I meant was, the people giving the support can be well meaning, but can be percieved as patronizing by the beneficiary of said support. (ie, they didn't mean it in a condescending way, but that's how it can be seen)
Not by me though, I'm happy with the Kirrimejiggy Cup.  :D

The whole "please mirror our negative sentiments" point which emanating from that was slightly toungue in cheek.

If you root for Scotland great, if you don't and slag us when we get beat, that's great too.


Again this is true, much more divides us than seperates us.

One might argue that a friendly sporting rivarly is one of those things for the uniting camp though. A slap on the back, gentle teasing, it's all in good fun. I'll mock a defeat, while raising a pint with my good natured English chums.

Despite what the tabloids would love to have us all believe, footall is only a game. If England don't win the World Cup, I'm sure most of the rubdowns on blonde will be good natured. It's not an attack on your beliefs or culture, which you and others have rightly pointed out, is strikingly similar (in an identical kinda way) to our own.

I tried to keep it within the confines of football as much as possible, lest it not be taken seriously ::)

I'll ignore my Gran's advice (God rest her soul) and make a bet with a man who laughs at his own jokes.  :D

A pint to be bought at Blonde Bash XVII for the man whos team reaches the furthest in their quest for the World Cup in South Africa.

Let's make it a tad more interesting, I'll raise you the Queen Vic if you call by putting up the cafe and the garage.

This article in today's Times may be relevant to this discussion?

www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2224705,00.html

World Cup snub by Scots leader 'fuels anti-English racism'
By David Lister, Scotland Correspondent
 
AN ENGLAND football fan living in Scotland blamed the country’s First Minister yesterday for stoking anti-English racism after his windows were smashed because he was displaying the St George’s flag. Amid rising fears that Scotland may be boycotted by tourists from south of the Border over Jack McConnell’s refusal to support England in the World Cup, Allan Robinson, 44, accused the First Minister of putting English people living in Scotland at risk.
 
Police said that they were investigating an “act of vandalism” on Mr Robinson’s home in Coatbridge, Lanarkshire, in which three windows were smashed as the opening game of the tournament got under way last Friday.

Anti-racism campaigners described the attack as “moronic”, but Mr Robinson, who is originally from Leeds and moved to Scotland five years ago, blamed the First Minister. “Me putting up a single flag . . . and my windows going through, I think it’s all to do with what Jack McConnell says.

“I was horrified by the attack. All three bedroom windows were smashed in. My girlfriend and I went down the shops and I was in my England strip. I got abuse hurled at me. I didn’t leave my house all weekend. I’m thinking it might be safer to move.”

The attack will further damage Scotland’s reputation as a welcoming and tolerant nation, already under scrutiny after the First Minister’s remarks. Asked last month whether he would be supporting England, Mr McConnell said: “No, I will not. Scotland is not there and that’s disappointing. And there are people who think that as First Minister I should automatically support England instead. But football is not about politics, so I will not be.”

The First Minister’s office denied that Mr McConnell had encouraged anti-Englishness. A spokesman refused to discuss the incident but said: “There is no place for racism in Scotland and we will do whatever we can to tackle that.” This week a group of 60 chartered surveyors from England cancelled a two-day conference at an hotel in Scotland because of Mr McConnell’s comments.

Tourism chiefs are concerned that the English may boycott Scotland after Mr McConnell’s remarks, but Visit Scotland, the tourist authority, said that, with one exception, there were no indications that this was happening.

Although Gordon Brown has said that he will be supporting England along with “two thirds of Scots”, most of the 400,000 English people living north of the Border will find that statistic hard to believe.

Sports shops across Scotland have struggled to cope with demand for Trinidad & Tobago strips and Jason Scotland, the Trinidadian striker who plays for St Johnstone, the Scottish first division team, has become a cult hero with a song in his name sweeping to the top of the charts.

Some bars are offering free drinks whenever England concede a goal and a sports shop in Angus is giving free golf balls to anybody wearing the strips of England’s opponents.

The Scottish Commission for Racial Equality has cautioned against anti-English racism, while schoolchildren who make anti-English remarks in class have been threatened with suspension. The letters pages of newspapers have been inun- dated with complaints about England’s World Cup “hysteria”and the endless coverage of Wayne Rooney’s foot.
 
 

Scotland is a top place. Its got a rich culture in both art and music and the scenery is beautiful. Given this I absolutely hate the fact that fact that its national identity now seems to be almost totally defined by hating another nation. It has so much bloody more going for it than to be reduced to that. And I still blame the self-absorbed london media and self-serving politicians for keeping that going.

Course that's nothing to do with footie rivalry, which is part of what makes the game great. The dutch loathe the german team for example, perhaps even more than the scots dislike the world-champions in waiting ;)

I always thought that the Scottish liked Brazil.......... ;ifm;

Thats the country Brazil - not Alan......

Brazil nuts. They like brazil nuts.

You could also have included the one from Monday(?) about the Scot killed down on the South Coast - for being a Scot during the World Cup.... (BTW - the guy lives in Coatbridge - windaes in is standard there I thought.... they also probably thought he was a Rangers fan - Still not fair on him though I agree).

Point is nutters and idiots are nutters and idiots.

One wee question - do any other countries demand their neighbours support them in the WC? Do yanks expect Canadians to support them? They share a language and culture....

The demand for other nations in Britain to support England strikes me as arrogance. The declaration that not to do so is driven by envy, or recollections of 100's of years ago also seems arrogant.

I'll nail my colours to the mast - I've met too many nice English people to hate someone for being English, and they have everyright to support their team and give me a rubdown when(if ;) ) they do well. I will not however support them in any field, rugger, footy or even tiddlywinks. Apart from history (Margaret Hilda Thatcher being one of the more recent annoying parts of it)... I hate that 'England  Expects' - What's wrong with 'England hopes', 'England would like'... they're fine - but Expects?? sorry, while England Expects I hope England gets disappointed.

Rod, I think its a bit cheeky to call English people arrogant if they hope the Scots want us to do well. Stupid or naive maybe, but I don't see how its arrogant. If a blues fan is suprised that, being a villa supporter, I don't want birmingham city to win a match, how on earth is he arrogant?
 
That sort of pretext seems to be crossing a line to me :(

Not the surprise from a blues fan - that's OK - it's the expectation that you would, and allegations of envy/chips on the shoulder if you don't - I'd find it arrogant - kind of 'we're there, you're not you should want us to win' - WHY??

Hoping we would OK - Expecting - I would find arrogant. Like I've not got some choice to make.

There's no insult meant Jammer - But should we support another country... I don't see why & I don't know of any nation that expects their neighbours/allies to do so.

I don't think anyone is demanding anything here.
V**a are sh** BTW :D

Oh, and "England expects" is a saying from the war.

Not sure... I mean how many other countries are in the same position as England and Scotland, i.e. both being part of the United Kingdom? This sort of poly-country isn't standard operating procedure amongst nations.

Having said that, I do wonder how many "ABU"s there are in Moscow right now, desperately cheering Spain on...  :D

Understood - but personally I'm not a fan of the poly country - and would have a lot easier time with England in the WC if we weren't linked...

I think things have got worse lately as well (politically I mean) - with the Lothian Question, Red Ken's nonsense about supporting the Scots financially, and the press comments about whether a Scot or a Welshman could be Prime Minister now there's a semi devolved parliament....

But at the same time I'm far happier that the average Englishman seems to think of England as England & not Britain as England (that grated a lot in the past - I still think expecting Scots to support England stems from that). I welcome the use of the St George's cross instead of the UJ for England support & have actually relaxed a bit about caring if England get beat. Then I hear Motson & I'm right back on my ABE bus ;) .

Again someone who likes to take someones words and quote them in a context that they weren't originally used. I never agrued or even suggested the point that anybody fellow Brit's supporting England MUST be envious or have a chip. I do believe I stated everybody is free to support who the wish. I have never said that any Scotland or any other fan should support England, infact in my first post on this thread I posted:

I really don't agree with Mr Moves statement that Scottish fans should support the English which was the final line of his original post so therefore the point of whether we should support Germany is not of any real consideration. The fact is people are free to support whatever team they choose and if they wish to adopt other countries/teams that is their choice.

So who said what that prompted you to say "it's the expectation that you would, and allegations of envy/chips on the shoulder if you don't", wasn't me. What I find arrogent is people who misrepresent another persons point of view to get their own point across.

Initially was going to flame back - (did actually).

Thank you for your accusations of arrogance. As you said, you don't expect a Scot to support England - I think that's the clue that the post wasn't about you.  ::)

Flame retardance on ;) This is a good thread and things are easily misquoted or misread.

Indeed - and like I said above, I mean no insult to anyone.

BTW was talking to a mate who used to live in Barcelona - apparently lots of the Catalans don't support Spain.

Yup, and most of them frown upon speaking spanish. Have family there and they had to learn catalonian...

Am I missing something? At what point did Rod directly accuse you personally of doing such a thing? If we're talking about someone taking words and quoting them out of context. ::)

Well as I was the person to use the words envy and chip who else was you refering to when you made your point about arrogence???

As I said before, who said what that prompted you to say "it's the expectation that you would, and allegations of envy/chips on the shoulder if you don't" or is it just mere coincidence you just happened to use the words specific words I had used ::)

Whether you directed your post towards me or not (lets be honest now) or even if it was "mere coincidence" that it appears directed to what I have previously said I have the right to challenge your arrogance suggestion "just incase" anybody reads your post as a rant against my comments as oppossed to a general rant.

To quote you "The demand for other nations in Britain to support England strikes me as arrogance. The declaration that not to do so is driven by envy, or recollections of 100's of years ago also seems arrogant". Interesting I mentioned history and used the words you attack as arrogent. Yet another coincedence  ::). Shame I didn't use them in the context you present.

p.s. I hope not expect  ;)

Maybe I am guilty of taking some words out of context and it was all just mere coincidence, but I recall do you specifically misquoting me previously so if anybody is aware of taking someones words and using them out of context you provide the precedent.

As a through and through engishman, I honestly think you've misinterpreted Rod there diceman. He's just not that sort of poster (as everyone here will attest to). Its real easy to miscommunicate on forums and I think that's the case here - no need for any aggrievement.

The question seems to me:

Football rivalry, nowt wrong with it. National hate obviosuly not so good. So how can you convince the scottish public as a whole that the london. press which we are lumped with, don't represent the rest of england? Its not possible right? we're fooked.  :dontask:

Rod's a chap the wrong end of 35 (he'll love me for pointing that out) who has spend a fair bit of time both sides of the border. This is by no means a new issue for him so I seriously doubt he was referring to you when he made his comments.

It could be, that while reading this thread, the latest words he came across were fresh in his subconcious. That's why he came to choose them when drafting his response. He says he recognizes that you don't expect (hope) a Scot to support England and so doesn't include you in his tirade so perhaps one should give him the benefit of the doubt and not read too much into his choice of language.

After all, you astutely pointed out earlier on...


You have a fair point at the top of this post, you should indeed have right to challenge the arrogance suggestion "just in case" anybody reads the post gets the wrong end of the stick. If you are concerned that's how you may be percieved, maybe it might be a plan to not assume a point raised in a debate of this scope is a personal dig.

Perhaps instead, you should just make it clear that you personally do not subscribe to the things Rod talked about, not insisting that this is what Rod meant.

No problem, just thought I would address something that appeared/appears to much of a coincedence not to be directed towards words that I used. I call it as I see (read) it.

The fact that I used phrases previously used on the thread when replying to the thread isn't exactly a surprise - as they are in the recent inbox in my mind. I think maybe a bit of getting over yourself is in order.

Anyway while you may not have demanded we support England, you do seem to have the very attitude to someone actively not supporting England that many of the arrogant people I've met come away with. What context was I meant to take your comments in? People have put reasons, you've dismissed them and made comments about envy, chips and 100's of years old history, hardly misrepresentation to use them as examples for what Scots are accused of for being ABE is it?

To my recollection, it was not you, but another poster named Gryff whom I quoted "out of context."

It seems clear to me now that if there is a precedent to be provided for taking a post not directed at them personally, but assuming it is, then you may be the person for that.

It's probably not possible Jammer, you're right - from the National News having long segments about hte EFA Cup Final while the SFA Cup Final gets an add on at the end with maybe the goal if we're lucky, to individual sportsmen being 'british' when they win (unless they're english - then they stay english) it is something the scots really get wound up at.... and I'll admit now are too sensitive to a lot of the time.

Also a desire for independance shouldn't lead to national hate - but sometimes unfortunately it does.

It could be, that while reading this thread, the latest words he came across were fresh in his subconcious. That's why he came to choose them when drafting his response. He says he recognizes that you don't expect (hope) a Scot to support England and so doesn't include you in his tirade so perhaps one should give him the benefit of the doubt and not read too much into his choice of language.

It was just combination of the use of terms which I had exclusively used plus the 100 year history dig that made it reasonable for to think, maybe just maybe, this is just to much of a coincedence not to be directed to me, hence my response. I don't know Ron but it has been known for people to make comments about/to others without personally directing them. Just fellt if someone was taking an arrogance pop at me at least quote me correctly :)  

[/quote]
Perhaps instead, you should just make it clear that you personally do not subscribe to the things Rod talked about, not insisting that this is what Rod meant.
[/quote]

I did by responding accordingly and challenging it. But then again I'm not so insecure that I'm really that fussed if someone does has taken it the wrong way. Just like a bit of verble sport :). I've no issues with people having a pop at me, just prefer it to be for something I have said or done rather then what people think I have done.

I believe it is possible, lets not be too defeatist. Read a tabloid that might give you some false hope.  :D

The changing of attitudes takes generations though.

Another attitude to dispel, is that of this one. We've tried to do a little bit of that here.


Colchester Kev quite neatly summed up my feelings on the matter a fair few pages ago...


If within my lifetime, I can retort to a sentence such as the last one, without people thinking I'm prejudiced and a big bag of bitter hate, then I'll be one happy Jock.

Don't worry Tank - Kiv's a Scotophile anyway - (http://uk.geocities.com/scottish_ironside/totalhumiliation.JPG)  rotflmfao

Is that true though Rod? F'rinstance Colin Jackson the blindingly good 110m hurdler was british, just as Linford Christie was. I don't remember anyone ever emphasising Linford Christie's englishness or favouring him anymore than colin jackson cos he was welsh? Or was that because they were very much part of a team? Equally at wimbledon the middle aged women wave about union jacks, not st georges crosses, for prissy tim henman, and I bet you will do the same for Andrew Murray (in spite of his ABE quotes ;))

I mean, you hear what you've said a lot, but I'm confused - who are these sportsmen who are only british if they win?

My point was that the language you used, made it look as if you believed this was already the case, rather than it simply being a possibility.

In turn this brings about the perception that you need to get over yourself.

As it was arrogance you were initially concerned about being accused of, I felt it prudent to point this out.

Well Murray's an example, he was a scot until he started winning, then was called british (as far as I can remember he actually pulled up a reporter about that at Wimbledon last year). It'll be interesting to see what he gets called this year (especially as he's off form).Elena Baltacha is another player called Scots all the time - unless she wins a game or 2....

Athletics is one sport where the teams are generally British... so I can't complain too much there.

The fact that I used phrases previously used on the thread when replying to the thread isn't exactly a surprise - as they are in the recent inbox in my mind. I think maybe a bit of getting over yourself is in order.

Anyway while you may not have demanded we support England, you do seem to have the very attitude to someone actively not supporting England that many of the arrogant people I've met come away with. What context was I meant to take your comments in? People have put reasons, you've dismissed them and made comments about envy, chips and 100's of years old history, hardly misrepresentation to use them as examples for what Scots are accused of for being ABE is it?
[/quote]

To take someone's phrases and then use them in another context which you then label as arrogent shows someone who has no basis for facts and quick to chuck out the insults. Such as your "get over yourself" remark. We're almost there in you admitting your thoughts about me are what you intially stated in you "mere coincedence" statement. It's a shame you label someone arrogent based on what you think they said rather than what they actually said. That is true arrogance. Maybe it is you who needs to get over yourself and the whole poor relations, aren't we victimised. Ever thought my comments where just to address whinging Scot's as I would whinging English, whinging Welsh, whinging anybody.

The constant blaming the whole ABE attitude on the bais British media is laughable as there are numerous factors which contribute to a persons prejuduce. Some people may claim it's just as friendly banter but god forbid I dare suggest it could be a result of deeper nationalistic prejudices. Let's keep it nice and fluffy and not dare consider they is an ugly side to this ABE.  

 

It's not an issue I'm a fan of either. As Rod says, there's a real danger of being "too sensitive" as a nation.

Whether Liz McCoulgan is British or Scottish when she's winning and losing respectively doesn't really bother me too much.

If truth be told, the problem (if you can call it that) isn't as bad as it was 10 years ago so I see it as kind of a dead issue.

I don't see Murray doing very well at Wimbledon either, hasn't had a chance to build any momentum since his injury, this won't be his year.

Hopefully, that means he won't be over-hyped next year. :)

Elena Baltacha I've not heard of. Andrew Murray I can understand him being pissed at the media if that's true, but I still hope the boy does good. Is that it though? I mean monty has always been british and he's crap.


I know, and its good innit ;)

However even though I've always wanted scottish footie to do well, I will endeavour to want them to get spanked in the future to keep you boys happy :D

The original posts weren't aimed at you & the insults you attribute to be the only feasable reasons for being ABE were good examples. The post using them wasn't aimed at you either, but the petted lip about being misquoted and the insults contained in the complaint led me to re-read what you'd posted & yes, I consider your assumption that the only reasons for ABEism have to be the ones you've suggested as arrogant, your overly verbose lecture answers also lead me to that conclusion.

I do not personally think the media are my only reason for ABEism - I've loads of reasons. History (some quite a bit less than 100 years), the "National" Anthem, the use of "the second" for the Queen - when she isn't QEII of Britain, the media, and yes - the anger that the Treaty of the Union was signed by some money grabbing nobles all figure in it. but you assume whatever reasons you like - I doubt there's anything I can say to stop you.

oh dear  ;hide;

I'll go hide behind the sofa, if anyone asks, it was ifm who started this thread.

Well I thought Monty was Scottish when he was being bad tempered at reporters.... British when spanking the yanks in the Ryder Cup...

Jammer - I'll look forward to the rubdowns when we cock it all up again (which could be soon - misguidedly we're building ourselves up again  ;scarymoment;).

I find it weird mind you - I can cheer a good performance by an EPL team in Europe, for some strange reason I passionately support the Lions in both codes of Rugby..... but I can't want an England team to win. Think it comes from my English Great British Raj loving, Tory Granny (RIP). When she moved in with the familly when she'd got older my poor Mum had to take her out when Scotland or England were playing :D

Flaming over - I was trying to stay out of this for that very reason... should have tried harder - still, I got to post the Colchester Kev 'I Love Scotland' picture :D

Rod-Diceman please keep this civil.

We have 12+ pages of good posts now and I dont want to see this locked or moved to the mod's board.

Dice, I'm not exactly sure where you think Rod originally wronged you, but he and others have pointed out that no offence was meant.

Will do Baron - like I said to Tank - flaming over. I think the Diceman & I will need to agree to disagree. I'll still let him buy me a pint at BB3 ;)

And finally we get there with you telling it like it is, finally grew some balls. Took a little prodding but we finally got there, well done. Sorry the intial it wasn't directed to you but it is now after re-reading your posts doesn't really wash. Maybe  it was just there all along in you subconscious  :o

And again you attribute a viewpoint to me as a "statement of fact" to suit yourself in making a point and provide you with reason to insult. I have never stated or assummed the "only reasons" for ABEism have to be the ones I've suggested, but if that allows you to chuck an insult to me so be it, classy, real classy. As I've said before there are numerous factors involved in ABEism some of which I dared to suggest rather than the blanket it's all about media bias. As much as you think I am arrogant I share the same level of belief that you manipulate falsehoods to express your own prejudices. Your arrogance as displayed in your assumming nature  surpasses any arrogance I may have.  

Dice, Rod has agreed to stop the flaming. Enough yeah?

Next post considered to be a flaming post will get this thread moved.

I'm not bothered who has the last word or how it started now. Can we just drop it please?

No problems Baron, as I have previously stated. I will however respond to insults directed to me. In the interests of goodwill to blonde I would prefer not to get into such personal agruements on a public forum but then again if someone insults via this medium then I will use it to respond accordingly.

Thanks Dice.

As I said before I don't really think anything was originally intended that way from Rod. However we can continue that discussion by PM if you so wish, let's not tarnish this thread with more about it.

I was writing my reply prior to seeing Rod's post and have yet to develop the ability to see into the future, that and I didn't read the posts when the red message came up prior to posting.

No problem.

Thanks.

Thats a very good point Jammer, I tend to find a large number of English footy fans have the same attitude, its also true with teams like Juve, Real Madrid & Bayern in their respective countries.

I think the ABE thing is very similar, anyone else agree or disagree with this?

I agree.

There are probably 4 current golfers that wouldn't want to be that bad. Tiger Woods, Ernie Els, Phil Mickelson and Vijay Singh.

Pretty much all the rest will never get anywhere close to what Monty has achieved in the game.

Sandy

Even all the guys who HAVE won a major?

I think too much emphasis is put on winning a major in golf - winning 7 order of merits in a row, in my view, is a significant milestone that may never be repeated.  Monty's heroic performances in what may be considered one of the true great sporting events, the Ryder Cup, hardly justifies calling him crap.  Also, from what I can remember he is always refered to as Scotland's Colin Montgomerie and not as British.  There are a number of one hit wonders who have collected a major that cannot possible compare to Scotland's Monty.

Well I just watched the scottish news there & my ABEism was severely tested by all the Jason Scotland nonsense.

OK he's called Scotland & he's playing against England.... but there wasn't the same fuss about him at the start of the season when he had his Work Permit renewal rejected becaaue he doesn't play for a country high enough in the rankings to justify him playing in the SPL....  YES I get the irony that he's now at the World Cup and Scotland aren't. Then he applies for a permit to play in the Scottish 1st division, and gets it (so essentially Dundee Utd lost a player without any compensation). It's just nuts.

Now we've got songs about him, he's all over the tabloids & it's starting to grate on me. I expect England to win by a fair bit & for once won't be too upset if they do. Can't cheer for them though ;)

absolutely.

9 years ago monty was at his best and was amongst the top 5-6 in the world.  winning that many euro order of merits is unreal.  So what he's never won a major!!! - Phil Ivey has never won the WSOp main event but he is IMO one of the VERY best poker players out there currently.

I support Britain 100%.  I would support any of the countries that make up the British Isles.  That's why my avatar on poker sites is always the Union Jack.  I love the UK.

I can't stand royalty though. It annoys me when people assume you are a royalist if you show your love for Britain.  It's the idea of being British that is fantastic. We are a special country in my eyes, even though every other country feels exactly the same about their nation.

In some respects we are socialised to believe in the greatness of our own country and it may all be false. After all the UK is just a piece of land, but in my mind it is a great piece of land. I don't mind if I have been programmed to show affection for it due to years of socialisation. But then again, I have been trained to hate England for the last 26 years ( I live in Scotland remember  :D ). However I don't hate England, I love England and want them to win the World Cup just as much as I would want Scotland to win it. 

Good luck England  :)up

Monty is a golfing god, end of.

are you serious? ::)

I agree Monty is a top golfer but all I'm saying is I think there are more than 4 other pros who wouldn't swap their career's for his.

Well obviously if Scotland were in it, then I would support Scotland  :D.  But England becomes my Scotland. Just like if Wales or Northern Ireland were in it. I would support them.  We are all Brits at the end of the day.  It is only the accent that is different.

and the language of course Sark

Gwisga t adnabod beth 'ch re yn siarad am Dewi

Translate?  does not make much sense to me, did you put something in to google?   :D

Errr... it's meant to say "I don't know what you're talking about Dewi."

I just sent it back through and it came out...

"I dress tower know thing ' dogs stud speaking about David."

Ah the effort is much appreciated,

you should have written

Nid yn gwybod bwth wyt yn siared amdano Dewi

"Bit knowing hut you are being crookedly ey may amalgamate about David" ???


Think my translator is broke. :D

True Dewi, I forgot about the language  :D.   I can't speak a word of Gaelic though .  What percentage of the Welsh population speak the language?   I know in Scotland there are three people that speak Gaelic. They live in a cave up in the highlands somewhere.

Population is just under 3 million, 20% are welsh speaking I believe

Maybe but not very many current golfers would imo. Even less will get close to his achievments.

Still he is tied 2nd at the US open as i type which makes 100+ fellow competitors envious of his score today never mind those who just want to be there !!

Sandy

 :goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost:

Come on Monty !!!! :)up :respect: ;pokergods; ;goodluck;

Sandy

How did he get on??

2nd after taking 6 on the last.

Ogilvy wins taking 5 on the last.

Lefty has 8/10 feet left for a 6 to tie Monty.

Sandy

bugger

::)