blonde poker forum

one of the moderating team has accidently remove the thread and its not retrievable
there is no other sinister reason for it being gone so feel free to continue or repeat posts on this thread
to keep other upto date that havent heard anything


thanks for your co-operation

ironside

lolz. wtf. sigh.

anyone who is in moormans stable, he's asking for people to contact him asap

I am told that it was me that deleted the thread whilst browsing blondes on my 'phone whilst playing the Luton tourney. I have no idea how or even if, but if so, my apologies.

To recap:

US Department of Justice move against Stars, Tilt and Cereus (UB). Charages against owners of bank fraud and money laundering. Looks like the Australian payment processing guy Daniel Tzvetkoff (arrested in Vegas last April, bailed in August) has sung like a canary and dropped the sites in it.

Reports that Stars have started blocking US player from real money play.

http://www.businessinsider.com/boy-genius-online-poker-scandal-2011-4

http://www.justice.gov/usao/nys/pressreleases/April11/scheinbergetalindictmentpr.pdf

Im playing a comp atm and there are only a couple players from the US playing, how have they slipped through?

still USplayers on stars not sure what the score is some reporting they can sit or register some saying its all fine

Go back to sleep. Modern technology ftw :))

No new players can sit seems to be the story.

that looks likely as the tables i was watching judging if its worth playing have had no new US players join

http://blogs.forbes.com/nathanvardi/2011/04/15/founders-of-worlds-biggest-online-poker-companies-indicted/

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-15/internet-poker-entrepreneurs-charged-with-fraud-money-laundering-by-u-s-.html

the full indictment is here

http://bit.ly/f6QUCa

There are loads of US players that live and play overseas, especially in south east asia. I assume those US residents not actually in the US cans till get on.

2+2 thread: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/reuters-full-tilt-poker-pokerstars-absolute-poker-charged-illegal-gambling-1020606/

Is it just me or is 2+2 running so slow?

http://www.businessinsider.com/boy-genius-online-poker-scandal-2011-4

Melting due to overload.

thought it might be

This actually might be a blessing in disguise. The US players are probably the best on the whole as a nation, maybe the games will get easier and give us fish a chance to scoop  ;D

$1.5bn from Stars
$1bn from FTP
$0.5bn the other one

Is the $3bn the DOJ are aiming to get - this is the estimated revenue from US players

i cant even get on 2+2.

All of the major gtd comps on stars havent been affected, saying that they always make way over the gtd's anyway

.
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdYJ1lgn-rU

I really hope Lederer gets off with it and has a long and fruitful life

Much better.

Is the general advice to get ur money out?

How's the bypass?

NOOOOOOOOO

so the fat yanks were too greedy and they got caught doing something naughty? is this correct

^^ annoying

the US players playing right now had pre-registered before it was blocked.  there are some still at cash tables, if they leave that's it tho

so what we reckon, end of ept's ,wpt's all new tours?

anyone spoke to raaby? hope all is ok with him.

US players are only 25% of Stars business. EPTs prob not affected.

WPT is in with by Party now, so won't be affected by US ban.

Doesn't appear to be any Americans playing cash on Stars now.

so FTP were just making a last ditch run for profits with these multi entrys then...

 Pab and a few others on Facebook, stating theirs a lot of reports that all the sites will be down within 48 hrs.

I think these reports stemmed from one message from Gambling Compliance website - it wouldn only be speculation on their part.

However, Stars have clearly exited the US.

euro rakeback sites will be getting somehwat of a boost from all this i would imagine, with all of thsi confusion, for the short term anyway at least

Steve Wynn Cuts Ties With Embattled Online Poker Site, PokerStars.

That partnership sure lasted a long time.

http://blogs.forbes.com/stevenbertoni/2011/04/15/steve-wynn-cuts-ties-with-embattled-online-poker-site-pokerstars/

Viffer wandering around DTD tonight telling anyone who would listen he was days away from signing a massive Stars deal.....not now.....

Ouch

How much of an affect should this have for sponsored pros and the team online/red pro guys?

So whose taken their money off these sites ?

Fck I can't play tomorrow hope Sundays comps are syllable guaranteed at present levels willing to play on a stake if they are and anyone is interested

Cant withdraw from my Tilt account

thats a worry, hope it works out for you. thank god i did my balance to some dudes the other day.

NY Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/16/technology/16poker.html?_r=3&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha26

America really is a strange place.

Also here's me thinking that a .com domain was a global one, when all this time it's only for the US.

States can't establish a secure connection when I try, anyone else had the same problem?

Same here.

+1

Has anyone tried emailing them yet?

PokerStars
4) PokerStars Support can be contacted at Support@PokerStars.eu
18 minutes ago

PokerStars
3) For players outside the US, its business as usual
18 minutes ago

PokerStars
2) Please be assured, players balances are safe, there is no cause for concern
19 minutes ago

PokerStars
Summary as follows: 1) We have had to suspend real money poker for people based in the US due to legal developments there
19 minutes ago

PokerStars
Official PokerStars Statement is available by logging into the PokerStars Client

PokerRoad Radio: "The Fallout Show"

http://www.pokerroad.com/radio/prr/358

omg! Can anyone get onto Tilt at the moment? I get the softawre update but it says it can't download.

Best time to play sunday biggies?

+1

stars ok for me cant get on tilt though

got on tilt no problem.

yeh me too. Can get into both

Same here - it won't download the software update.

+1

Fulltilt is clearly not letting anyone withdraw atm....

Spin it up then!!!!

I withdrew from tilt around 1am & I can get on

Blatant brag post imo.

Uninstalled FT then reinstated through fulltilt.co.uk and all ok now

Geo

Our funds should be safe. Full tilt and stars have both banned US players.

Penblwydd hapus xx

withdrawing now isnt gonna do much if there banks and payment processors have been frozen

a take from www.makepokerlegal.com


"First off, in spite of what FTP and PS says, this does effect players beyond The USA. 76 Bank accounts have been frozen by The Feds in 14 countries world wide. Simply put, these sites cannot meet any cash out demands because these assets, along with more assets, are frozen and  will be frozen. I expect legit payment processors to ” run for cover” and distance themselves from FTP and PS. Now FTP issued a statement claiming they beleive online poker is legal, as do ” some of the best legal minds in The USA”..  Well, SO DO I!! but this is not about online poker in and of itself, but offshore sites engageing in alleged money laundering and fraud, in order to CIRCUMVENT THE UIEGA, tricking banks to  process these payments, when The UIEGA clearly states it is illegal for them to do so, WILLINGLY, KNOWLINGLY!

In my opinion, the only chance FTP and PS has to beat this case, is for their attorneys to argue that the UIEGA in and of itself is unconstitutional. The Federal Reserve is supposed to be the oversite with jurisdiction. How can a privately held institution like The Fed have this kind of authority? Also, it appears to be a violation of  “equal protection under the law” Article 9, I beleive. Why were some Sports betting and horse racing sites in The USA and abroad allowed to have their payment processors process these bets, wheras online Poker sites were not? Having said all of this, it is likely you will not see your money ever again. It will be seized by The USA GOV, just like they seize alleged Drug dealers money and possesions. I also beleive The USA will claim that the very servers themselves the sites use to run the games, were built and maintained from “illegal and illicit gains”, therefore they will seize those servers with the aid of foreign countries where the servers reside, and effective shut down FTP and PS indefinetly world wide.  I have more to say in the coming days over this issue so stay tuned!"

Alarming comment or just alarmist with an agenda, time will tell.

That is one scary post. Let's hope it is alarmist rubbish!

Surely for uk players who have deposited through legal means,our funds are  safe. I was under the impression stars used rbs ( or whatever it is now). The us authorities have jurisdiction over this?

What a mess!!!

looks like the big poker companies might have messed up pretty big. DOJ is charging them with bribing small banks who were in financial trouble into processing cashouts. Whether online poker is legal or not therefore becomes a moot point in the legal case. Fraud, money laundering and bribery are much more serious crimes. It seems odd for the site to have been so careless as to leave these dealing to be discovered (looks like some small banks have been turned into co-operators to avoid some charges) - so maybe there is more to the story. Its going to be enough to keep them locked in legal action for a long time though.
 

for non US player, id guess Stars will cover anyone's cash outs even if the money is tied up. The biggest risk I see is if stars/tilt have left too much money vulnerably and now don't have the liquidity to cover cash-outs even if their intention are to do so.

As for seizing non US based servers, companies or funds - cant see this happening. Stars and FT are fully licensed in the UK, hopefully our government has enough sense to not comply with the retarded US DOJ.

The whole thing is just a giant shakedown, US government dont want to drag this through court.

Stars are licenced in the Isle of Man, Full Tilt are licenced in Alderney in the Channel Islands, neither of which are part of the UK.

Stars are licenced in the Isle of Man, Full Tilt are licenced in Alderney in the Channel Islands, neither of which are part of the UK.
[/quote]


isnt FT operations based somewhere out of N Ireland.
quote from stars.
"PokerStars is owned and operated by a legal entity licensed and located in the Isle Of Man (a crown dependency of the United Kingdom) and we pride ourselves in abiding by all relevant laws and regulations. The current situation about which you have inquired only impacts US Players."

regardless, they are both licensed to run in the UK

Both use the British government for defence and foreign policy so would look to our government to tell the usa to keep hands off

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=52628.0

And the fact that they keep repeatedly telling us they are the land of the free and all that bollocks.

Tilt's operations are run out of Dublin.

Alderney and the Isle of Man are both on the white list of places where companies who are licenced can legally advertise in the UK. This is not the same as being licenced in the UK.


There are extradition treaties between the Isle of Man and the UK, and the UK and the USA. They would certainly look to the UK for help, but it might not happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_West_Three
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Mckinnon

Aren't they based outside the UK in order to avoid the tax implications of running their operations on UK soil (or is that bollocks)?

Not bollocks at all - it's certainly one of the main reasons. The small jurisdictions offer very favourable tax systems to attract the business of internet companies whose operations are not dependent on location

Sickest sweats for Bax and Sheets........

Please don't believe the spin of the USDOJ.

a)There is no legal certainty that offering internet poker is a federal offence.
b) If it isn't illegal then the UIGEA and money laundering charges are not relevant
c) The bank/processing charges might be relevant, but all we have is the spin from the DoJ, rather than hard evidence eg the "bribery" allegation seems like total spin.  If the poker and therefore the transactions were legal the purchase of the bank and its activities are red herrings.

Remember the US is still in breach of its trade treaty obligations in the online gambling market and frankly their behaviour in attempting to disrupt the activities of legitimate foreign businesses is quite disgraceful.

FYI, FT are accepting withdrawal requests again.

Whether they go through or not is a second question...

My cashout today has been accepted so just a case of waiting to hit the bank, whereas my stars cashout is still processing.

Unfortunately 95% of my online roll is stars. I am pretty positive we are going to be ok in the UK, the bigger concern is where this is all going long term.

Look on the bright side. The games will probably be significantly softer without the US players, no?

Still massive traffic on stars ( compared to other euro sites)  Guarantees will be slightly lower but still bigger than anywhere else. Maybe they will become more euro friendly now :)

Mine's processing but that's ok. I wanted to get my cash off Tilt and into Stars so this has given me a reason to do it. Just might hold off putting it into Stars until we get a clearer picture.

Been playing a few MTTSNGs today and they are slower to fill but still pretty quick. Liquidity has all but disappeared above approximately $20 though apart from a few 18 mans.

ETA: I think this is gonna hurt the MTTSNG players more than anything. Cash players/MTT guys can play on any site - apart from Stars/Tilt no other sites have any decent MTTSNG's. Even Stars.FR doesn't have any decent games.

Woodsey- Yes i think the games will be softer, if the most likely scenario plays out (business as usual outside the US). I am going to be one of the hardest affected grinders as my games rely on having lots of traffic, it takes a while to fill mttsngs.

Blackbeard- Yeah this time of day is going to be the least affected as we are entering euro peak times. After 10-11pm we are going to see big drops in traffic imo.

18 mans seem the best way to go atm.

feels like poker has gone back 5 years its amazing

the prizepool is smaller but the standard is really really bad

I just won a pot in plo....good times....

Any idea how long full tilt to neteller will take? Been 6 hours so far.

There's an excellent little interview with Ftrain (US Pokernews reporter who use to be a corporate lawyer) on Pokernews.nl explaining what exactly has happened: http://bit.ly/eGxdbC

LOL - internet poker causes child abuse and alcoholism

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=1148592712

"cost to society of online poker $32billion"

what?

That NBC bloke is talking out his arse. I find when i abuse children and turn to alcoholism my ev turns negative, so i try not to partake whilst playing online poker

MikkyT was really more of a live player.

So advice would be not to deposit on ftp or ps willingly at this stage? Also i wonder what is happening to people on AP FTP or PS that have won WSOP $12k packages, would they be GTD?

I have seen quotes from stars honouring EPT grand final packages to non us customers. Yet with the WSOP being held in the US it might be a cloudier picture.

where do Americans play online poker on u.s soil....what sites if any are unaffected....I mean fully operational...I.e.withdrawing and depositing...

bodog cake and merge

was wondering this is it worth depositing to play sundays or not?

Is this going to affect Neteller accounts?

Nearly 24 hours and still processing my neteller cashout from FTP. Anyone had any success?

Expecting anything within 24 hours is pretty ridic given the circumstances

Yes, especially given that 3985757392093 people would have tried to cash out on Friday night,

Usually instant and its pretty peanuts under $1k. Dont think its that crazy to think that i might have it by now.

Stars got it to me within an hour as per usual.

stars withdraw to ur bank account within one hour?

No, never been that fast for me.

Neteller.

Bank is 2 days for me i think.

100,000 people try to withdraw $1k. Still peanuts?

Surely most of the on line funds are invested by stars/tilt and ain't readily accessible. Could cause major cash flow problems for these sites.

Talking to Toby Lewis he says this will affect him big time as a big player of the Tilt and Stars large runner events

Although he is hearing that the games are already softer he has various horses stuck in make up online...the buy ins for the events are the same mow but the guarantees lower, so less chance for the horses to climb out of it


John Eames was also gloomy, talking about looking for a new career.

[X] eames could be a success at anything he put his mind too.

[ ] Eames is an online player

I'm pretty sure the Isle of Man regulations wouldn't let Stars invest the player funds - I'm vaguely sure it'd be similar with Tilt.

The $ amounts are irrelevant to the cashout backup, it's the quantity of transactions which are most likely causing a problem

Think of Yanks like Bax and Sheets,they will have horses which cant play anymore and funds they cant withdraw.

[X] eames is a player

http://www.pokerstars.eu/poker/room/faq/


Don't quite know what 'managed by one of Europe's leading financial services groups' means. Does it mean 'sitting in an account at a big bank' or 'being invested in low risk stocks/shares/bonds etc by a big bank'. The gist of the statement by Stars is to reassure players that the player funds are not held by Stars, so the funds can't be embezzeled by Stars before they go bust.

I've not been anywhere near my computer since friday morning, or spoke to anyone involved in poker either.

Just been skimming most of it after a phone call, and read the message on Stars.

I have v large sums on FTP Stars and 4 figures on Absolute, what do you guys suggest? Am i safe to leave my rolls? should i take most out if i can?

I also have a million+ FPPs on Stars, should i be worried about losing them?

(also i cant get into FTP, but can AP n' Stars)

To get into FTP you need to download a new client from www.fulltiltpoker.co.uk.

Money? Prob OK for a UK player, but it is a time of great uncertainty.

Trying to withdraw it prob can't do any harm.

thanks for the reply,

i've just took a chunk from FTP, and will probably do same with Stars later.

better to be safe than sorry i suppose.

I feel for the US players that may lose their rolls. i almost had a panic attack!

I'd think that they could embezzle if they wanted to - the arrangement should mean that if Stars go bust, the funds can only be used to re-imburse players (that doesn't mean that other agencies can't try to get these funds with associated lawyers fee bonanza).

I dont have large sums on either site as i'm s*** at poker

+1

Excellent article by Gary Wise

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/poker/columns/story?columnist=wise_gary&id=6372121

The dust starts to settle, & here's some (presumably) factual hard numbers from Poker Scout for the post Black Friday weekend.

http://www.pokerscout.com/news/weekly-traffic-update.aspx?year=2011&week=17

All publicity is good publicity?

http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=poker%2Cpokerstars%2Cfull%20tilt%2C&date=today%201-m&cmpt=q

I wonder how many poker players now effected by this ban voted for Bush and his cronies that brought this in?

I think the Illegal Gambling Business Act was brought in by Nixon (ironically a well known poker player), so not many I would think  ;)

But I thought it was Bush administration that pushed through the Online end of it. 4 years ago?

All that law did was prevent banks from funding "illegal" gambling sites.  There has to be a law making the gambling illegal in the first place.  The law being used is the one mentioned above.

A lot of the people affected by this wouldn't have been old enough to vote for Bush in 04' and certainly not 2000.

Well we can talk about the exact legal laws and implications all day but the fact is Bush took it upon himself to basically close the loopholes and set the wheels in motion to prevent any online poker activity for Americans. I wonder why did he do it? was it pressure from certain groups in America? do they see Online poker as a huge problem?

I wonder what the implications are for the WSOP? Sorry if this has been mentioned  -  haven't got time to read all the pages....at work.
WSOP in July - not sure how quickly they law works in the US but it's not long - I wouldn't want to be trying to qualify on a US site even from the UK just in case they can't buy me in at the the tellers window.

Great opportunity for UK sites to get more satts running for the WSOP surely?

The US facing sites couldn't buy you into the WSOP anyway. You would get the money and buy yourself in, with a number of extra incentive from the sites to do so. I would imagine for UK players the situation hasn't changed at all, if you qualify on stars/tilt they will give you the money.

Numbers will be down, as people satting in is going to be way down. Durrrr has set the line at 5k for the main event.

Would you want to turn up in the US with $10k of money from a company that has been implicated in money laundering though? ;carlocitrone;

this is from Bluff Online

Thought it laid it out well

"It’s amazing how much can change in a day. On Thursday evening I was still reeling from Vanessa Selbst and Jason Mercier making an amazing double-double/repeat-repeat by both defending their respective Main Event and Bounty Shootout titles at the NAPT Mohegan Sun. On Friday morning I took a metaphorical punch to the gut when I read that Full Tilt Poker, PokerStars and Absolute Poker had been indicted with 11 arrests made or extraditions pending.

The Two Plus Two forums crashed as a record 12,000 plus users tried to access the servers at the same time; the Twittersphere exploded as thousands of online poker players, casual fans and those like me in the media tried to work out what was going on and how it could be dealt with. Amidst the “sky is falling” and “pokerpocalypse” Tweets came the likes of Tom “durrrr” Dwan and Phil Galfond, men with bankrolls valued at the price of a small tropical island, telling everyone to make like the t-shirts and bumper stickers: KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON.

Unfortunately, carrying on is simply not an option for the thousands of people in America that make their living from playing poker online. Hours after the indictments, PokerStars and Full Tilt Poker announced that they were ceasing operations in the United States. For the past 48 hours or so, there have been no American players on either of the major sites.

“Well, thank the Lord I’m in Europe reading Bluff Europe,” you are now thinking Europeanly while reading this from your house in Europe. Unfortunately you are just as likely to be negatively affected regardless of whether or not you play on the major US sites. Does anyone remember the gargantuan drop in PartyGaming stock in late 2006? This fall happened after the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act, which was slipped in under the Safe Port act in 2006 and effectively banned banks from processing online gambling transactions. Those of you who have been playing poker long enough will remember the fallout of the UIGEA. It was the end of the “golden era” where the highest stakes games played like your local pub tournament and top pair, top kicker was all you needed to take down a five-figure pot. The UIGEA was considered the end of online poker in 2006... and 2007... and 2008... basically, ever since then you can’t go a week without hearing how the games have gotten tougher and that online poker is dying. Well, the UIGEA was just a warning shot. This is the beginning of the battle.

So, to break it down – PokerStars and Full Tilt, the two bastions of US online poker, no longer offer real money games to US customers. Absolute Poker and UB were also included in the FBI shutdowns but are, as of Sunday evening, still offering real money ring games. This won’t last, I should think. Furthermore, the destruction of the cancer in the poker industry known as the CEREUS network is probably a great silver lining from this. The Department of Justice indictment strongly implies that Absolute Poker have continued to lie about their post-scandal ownership as well but that’s a whole other editorial.

I’m not going to sugarcoat it – things will never be the same again. This is the biggest thing to happen to poker since Moneymaker’s win and unfortunately it’s the opposite end of the same spectrum – perhaps a more literal poker “boom”.

The sites in question, believed – truthfully, though the exact definition is debatable – that poker is a game of skill and thus transactions from poker sites don’t qualify as “online gambling transactions”. This, they felt, meant that by setting up shell payment processors and persuading banks to process poker transactions, they were not breaking the law. Whether or not that argument holds up in court is to be decided.

So what’s going to happen now? Is it time to hole up your family in a concrete basement while you sit anxiously by the door cradling a shotgun to guard your tins of beans? Now that the initial panic has died down a bit it seems clear that for those of us living outside the US, online poker isn’t dead. Rumours were circulating that all indicted sites would shut down operations globally within 48 hours of the indictments. Clearly this is not the case as I’m playing $0.1/$0.25 PLO on PokerStars right now. Sick brag.

However, the fallout from this is potentially catastrophic. As much as I’m liking the idea of a Euro-centric poker economy and the opportunities that we’ll get from PokerStars and Full Tilt focussing their energies here, I can’t help but feel that the loss of several hundred thousand American fish is greater than our gain. Briefly, since this editorial is running longer than I intended it (and I would need upwards of 10,000 words to fully articulate everything about this situation) let’s look at some possible negative effects:

Televised poker is largely paid for by poker sites. Poker After Dark will possibly hold onto its timeslot (the best thing on at 2am for sure) in the US but High Stakes Poker and the PokerStars Big Game are likely buried. The North American Poker Tour may have to go and thus the programming that comes with it – ESPN has already removed PokerStars ads from their site and a rerun of the 2007 WSOP was replaced by boxing over the weekend.

Player sponsorships are in jeopardy. Someone like PokerStars’s Daniel Negreanu or Full Tilt’s Patrik Antonius are obviously safe, though they may well have to take a pay cut and be willing to commit to international duties. “B-list” US players, such as those on Full Tilt’s $35 per hour/100% rakeback deal are the most likely casualties.

Live tournaments will be hit hard, perhaps hardest. While the UIGEA didn’t have disastrous impact on the World Series of Poker Main Event that didn’t prevent US players from playing online. This does. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a 2005-esque field of four to five thousand at the WSOP in 2011. As mentioned the NAPT will likely be gone and the Onyx Cup has already been cancelled. The EPT will surely survive, which leads us to...

The silver lining is that Europe is now the poker capital of the world. The European Poker Tour is going from strength to strength and emerging markets in Eastern Europe are growing by the day. Asia is another untapped resource – we’ve already had a tantalising glimpse of their gamble in the record-setting Macau cash games. BUT...

The Great Depression of the early 20th century gave birth to the expression that “when America sneezes, the world catches a cold”. Again, I’m not going to sugarcoat this – it’s bad, no matter what positives you take from it. PokerStars have lost a quarter of their player base; Full Tilt almost half of theirs. Remember the Reid Bill? Well, now we’re in the blackout period proposed, just with no warning. My prediction, based purely on being more of a poker industry insider than the average man:

1 – PokerStars and Full Tilt have to adjust and compete with iPoker, PartyGaming and Merge etc. in a European market. I imagine they’ll have little trouble, especially PokerStars who could well make themselves a dominating EU presence.

2 – The high and mid-stakes games will get harder as the US fish no longer play but the regulars making $100,000 or more a year will move to Canada and the UK to continue making their income. The lower stakes games will be business as usual, just with fewer players.

3 – The PPA and the tens of thousands of American citizens now out of work (not just rakeback grinders but poker media and industry workers) will lobby for regulation harder than ever – we’ve already seen it attempted and even now Washington are planning online gambling.

4 – We see, within one to five years, regulated and taxed online poker in the US. Best-case scenario is global gaming where the poker world plays mostly on HarrahsOnlinePoker.com or WSOP.com; worst-case scenario is poker games restricted to individual states or just the US. I can’t see that happening though, why would the US Government want to miss out on a slice of the world’s rake?

PokerStars is already the market leader for online poker in Europe and we can expect to see them doing OK. However, we need to bear in mind that with $3,000,000,000 owed to the US Government ($1.5bn from Stars; $1bn from FTP and $500m from CEREUS) the sites could still go under. Things could still get worse before they get better."

I won a ME pkg and a bracelet pkg on ftp last night, and not gna lie, i am a little worried. I just hope they are true to their word, stating that our funds are still safe.

As for the #'s, its bound to negatively affect them. A % of entries are online qualifiers, its gna make the field less soft too :(

I think live poker rooms, and events like the Venetian DS series could benefit though. Maybe the $1k-2k WSOP events too.

(sry for bink brag)

stupid yanks.. such worrying times.. sighhh

Once you've cashed out the funds, it's the same as any other money you'd be taking into the US.  The sites these days simply deposit the funds in your account and leave you to sort out the buy-ins, travel, etc.  The only thing which they arrange are the hotel accomodation if you take up the option, clothing, dinners, etc.

When I went through customs in Vegas last year and declared the cash they didn't even look twice at me or the forms - I was just another punter bringing funds in to play the World Series.  Imagine how many people they must see each day declaring money at Customs to gamble with (as you're suppose to declare wire transfers too AFAIK).

Several years ago the noble profession of money laundering was dumbed down considerably to mean that if you do anything at all with the financial proceeds of crime, a money laundering charge can be added to the criminal charge.  Obv ppl like you (just saying) are unaware of this and think zomg money laundering!  When the US actually finds real money laundering they don't do much to the individuals involved (in the bank that facilitated the scheme).

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/03/us-bank-mexico-drug-gangs

Only 388 pages and counting. Excellent! [   ] I'll read that tonight

The americans are really tilting me.

All the talk is of buying accounts of europeans/using a VPN/getting european friends/relatives to set up accounts and handle the money.

The poker world (2+2 primarily i spose) jumps on the back on any cheating/MA'ing scandal and calls the culprits into the ground for it, now the boot is on the other foot half of them are considering cheating.

Rules is the Rules, if you're not allowed on FTP/Stars gtfo. This is going to cause scandal upon scandal I really hope the sites crack down ridic hard on this otherwise the whole thing becomes a joke.

They obv won though cos at the end of the day it's all about the $$$$$$$

I hate America/Americans.

seen you are bored on facebook lil one. dont let this tilt you. cheating has always gone on and always will. there is money involved and people are greedy by nature. now get down the nat west and use that venom on them...they deserve it

Racist/ban.

I dislike much of the British public too!

fyp

+1

Mods, is this an acceptable thing to say on the public forum?

if any americans are looking for a full tilt account and want to make me an offer too good to refuse they are more than welcome to mine

+1.....and I live in Florida.

delete/pm/ban/warn etc

How about £zero? You're bound to make money anway

Absolute are still open to US players, I believe

What would be the strategy behind sticking two fingers up at the DOJ and saying "fuck you"?

Dwan, I saw, was quoted as saying he wouldn't pay 40c in the $ in lieu of money on AP.

i got a ban from full tilt a few years ago. i dont know what all the fuss is about. it had a positive effect on my life. thinking about my friend lisa condon in dublin. recently moved fom Boyles to full tilt and am sure she has something to do with the money laundering

One strategy could be to get a load of US players money before running off to a country that doesn't have extradition treaties with the USA.

???

Titanium Bean gets a bit excitable, and I don't think one should take his sweeping generalisation seriously, should we Mr Wayman?

Meanwhile on egamingreview

"In the 72 hours following the indictment of 11 senior executives and owners of three of the biggest US-facing poker sites, their European rivals have launched respective marketing drives in an attempt to capitalise on the availability of new players.

Since the US Attorney’s Office issued a notice on Friday bringing charges against Pokerstars founder Isai Scheinberg, Full Tilt’s Ray Bitar, and nine others for alleged fraud, money laundering and illegal gambling, traffic on a number of rivals' sites has risen dramatically.

According to Pokerscout’s weekly traffic report, all three affected sites have seen their traffic drop significantly, with Full Tilt’s 48% week-on-week decline the most striking. PKR, however has seen a 21% rise (the highest from a non-US site) while PartyPoker (9%), 888Poker (5%) and the iPoker network (4%) are also on the up.

Several networks and sites not taking US customers have hastily launched promotions to target those players looking to deposit on sites other than Full Tilt, Pokerstars and the Cereus, the two-site network that contains Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet, both of which are included in Friday’s indictment.

Last night, Unibet announced it would be holding its first ever €500,000 guarantee tournament, while ChiliPoker – on the iPoker network – countered what has come to be known as online poker’s “Black Friday” with its own “Purple Day” promotion, featuring 200% sign-up bonuses.

One European-based affiliate, who asked not to be named, told eGaming Review: “My inbox is getting constant messages such as 888 doubling their prize-pools, and Titan Poker offering 60% revenue shares and saying if you are a Pokerstars player you can send them a screenshot of your VIP status then you get the same level of loyalty there.

“I was surprised by the email [from Titan] because it was so obvious, but I think Pokerstars and Full Tilt have really played outside the rules of the game and now this is a very positive development for the whole affiliate system.”

He went on to suggest that, from a player’s point of view, a more carefree attitude towards funds locked up on the bigger US-facing sites could begin to reap rewards. “Many people think that playing on Pokerstars and Full Tilt is like playing Zynga poker because no one knows what the value of the chips really is,” he said.

Dominik Kofert, CEO of power affiliate PokerStrategy.com, is cautiously optimistic about the impact Friday’s news will have on the online poker market outside the US.

“The curious thing is that some of these same people used to say that – compared to some banks and payment providers – the safest place to keep money was on Stars and Tilt.”

His site refuses to take American players and runs IP blocks. Providing Pokerstars and Full Tilt can continue to run their non-US-facing sites, as is currently the case, he expects a “mini-boom” outside the US.

“The European-facing sites have launched their various promotions and I think Pokerstars will follow suit in the next few days,” he said.

“With more traffic going to those sites not taking players from the US, I expect Pokerstars  and Full Tilt to divert more of their marketing spend to these markets in response.”

He added the priority for many of his players was to ensure their funds are secure, with many of them currently unable to withdraw from Pokerstars and Full Tilt.

“It is an issue of trust, and it is important that this element gets sorted out as quickly as possible,” he said.

But while European sites are seemingly showing a near-unanimous drive to capitalise on those players deserting the ‘big three’ in America, a mixed message is coming from stateside competitors.

Bodog made a mysterious return to Pokerscout's rankings with a 26% seven day rise in player numbers in the wake of Friday’s indictments, having blocked the tracking site earlier this year, while the Merge and Cake networks continue to take American players at the time of writing.

However, Victory Poker – one of the larger skins on Cake – is immediately abandoning its US focus. CEO Dan Fleyshman tweeted yesterday: “Asked the Cake Network to BLOCK US players from the Victory Poker site. They are supportive of my decision. Hope it gets regulated 1 day!” "

Meanwhile, 888 & BWin shares soar on the LSE.......

From the BBC....

Shares in London-listed online betting firms surged after some big poker websites in the US were shut for alleged illegal activity.

In early afternoon trading Bwin were up more than 34% and 888 up 24% as investors speculated that the US closures would boost their operations.

On Friday, 11 people linked to three major poker sites were charged with offences, including fraud.

The US probe involves three sites: Full Tilt, PokerStars, and Absolute Poker.

According to Execution Noble analyst Geetanjali Sharma: "The closure of the main competitors' operations and the US legal proceedings initiated against them should benefit European listed operators."

Playtech, another gaming site, also saw its shares jump 11%

he wont reply until he gets back from the EDL meeting

is it better to generalise to most of the worlds populace then?

and, we say, desperately trying to keep the thread on track..


Party Poker rose 30% in London today too

short meeting tonight andrew. not much to discuss

Much. As long as its not specific to one race, creed, religion or nationality and posted on here in case it offends, its better

thank you

Roger.

Jase we are very new age techy so we have meetings online now ;)

I hate all equally.

Tipped up within the first two pages of the 2+2 thread. Every cloud n that for those that got on.

My stars cashout has been processed now, the more I think about the situation the more positive I am from a purely selfish standpoint.

Played a session today games loaded a bit slower but nothing dramatic and they were also a bit softer than your average Monday afternoon imo.

yeah but that was after the market closed and they opened with most of the gain already priced in.  So unless someone had access to out of hours trading with idiots they wouldn't have made much.

More good stuff


Federal Poker Indictments: Revisiting Prohibition

The timing is suspicious.

March saw Nevada regulators approving a partnership between Caesars and 888, and Wynn announcing a joint venture with PokerStars.  Now comes the indictments, three-billion-dollar civil suit and seizures of domain names by the feds.  Wynn immediately cancelled his plans.  Players were panicked.

Which was, of course, the goal.

If the allegations are true, the operators brought this on themselves, by lying and bribing bank officials. Of course, the prosecutors have the problem of convincing a jury that there is bank fraud when the "victims" are tricked into making millions of dollars.

And will this be the end of Internet poker?  Did Prohibition end drinking?

Prohibition created modern organized crime, by outlawing alcoholic beverages.  When people want something and it is illegal, organizations will arise to fill the demand.  How much more so when the activity, online poker, is not even clearly illegal?

Every action by the U.S. federal government makes it more difficult for it to go after the next operator.  The UIGEA, rammed through by the failed politician Bill Frist (R.-TN), can be seen as an anti-consumer-protection law, because it scared all of the publicly traded gaming companies out of the U.S. market.  Then prosecutors went after payment processors, making it more difficult for players to find legitimate ways to send their money to betting sites.

Now the feds have seized .com domain names and charged operators with bank fraud.  So, gaming sites are switching to .eu and .uk, and cutting off all physical contact with the U.S.  Even the present American operators can’t be extradited, so what hope is there for the DoJ to bring future foreign operators here to stand trial?

The Grand Jury has been meeting for at least a year.  The criminal indictment against PokerStars, Full Tilt, Absolute and their founders, was unsealed by the U.S. Attorney for New York on April 15, but bore a date-stamp of March 10.  So why now?

Besides the Caesars-888 and Wynn-PokerStars agreements, the Nevada Assembly Judiciary Committee recently approved a bill to regulate online poker.  And the District of Columbia actually made it legal.

The DoJ has been waging a war of intimidation against Internet gambling for years, successfully scaring players, operators, payment processors and affiliates into abandoning the American market.  Lacking the two essentials to any prosecution – a statute that clearly makes the activity illegal and a defendant physically present in the U.S. – the feds have announced showy legal action against easy targets about every other year.

Online poker is not an easy target, since a federal Court of Appeal ruled the Wire Act is limited to bets on sports events.  And tricking financial institutions into processing poker payments seems a technicality, especially since the banks made millions without paying a penny in fines.

But getting a bank to agree to process gambling transactions in return for a $10 million investment is an easier case, if true.  I can understand approaching a small bank – so small that the officer and part-owner who allegedly arranged the deal, asked for, and received, only $20,000 for his “bonus.”  But why would you do this in Utah, of all states?

There are lots of interesting nuggets in the legal papers.  The DoJ claims that one-third of the billions of dollars players deposited went to the operators through the rake.  That number seems high, but if true, it explains why everyone wants to operate an online poker room, with few expenses and no chance of losing to a lucky gambler.

All of the activities cited occurred after the passage of the UIGEA.  This is a subtle acknowledgment that operators who left the U.S. in 2006 have nothing to fear.

Even if there was a bribe, the feds are still going to have to prove that the poker was illegal.  Since the Wire Act won’t work, prosecutors used 18 U.S.C. 1955, which makes it a federal felony if five or more people do more than $2,000 in business a day in violation of state gambling laws.  There is a “thank you” to the Washington State Gambling Commission, indicating that the DoJ is probably going to piggyback on that state’s 2006 law outlawing all Internet gambling.

The Washington statute was upheld by the State Supreme Court.  Still, there are problems.  State laws are presumed not to reach beyond their borders.  And even if Internet poker is illegal in that state, it is quite a leap to seize domain names for the entire country and threaten bank accounts in places like Panama.

The only state with a law better than Washington’s is Nevada.  But basing this attack on Internet poker on Nevada law would look like it was motivated by the landbased casinos.  After all, who are the big winners here?

We will probably see the first attacks on the indictments from the two defendants who were arrested, the Utah banker and the Nevada payment processor who allegedly bribed him, when they fight extradition to New York.  And the poker operators will undoubtedly fight to get their .com names back for the rest of the world.

The operators will never stand trial.  The only U.S. extradition treaty I have found that covers illegal gambling is with Hong Kong.  Calling it bank fraud won’t work, since the defendants can show their local courts that it is based on gambling.  And it is fundamental to all extraditions that the activity be illegal in both countries.  No nation will extradite an individual to be tried for the very activity that that nation licenses.

There may not even be a settlement.  The DoJ accepted $405 million from PartyGaming and one of its founders and $100 million from Neteller and its founders.  But those companies had already left the U.S. gaming markets.  The DoJ will insist on a guilty plea to something, which might kill the operators’ chances of getting licensed when American laws change.  And no amount of money will buy them the right to open up again without a change in the law.  So what would these operators get from a settlement, other than not having to be worried about getting arrested changing planes?

It will be interesting to watch the fallout.  There are a lot of famous American poker players and others who are associated with the indicted operators.  They should be getting their affairs in order.

Meanwhile, like a raid by Elliot Ness on breweries and speakeasies during Prohibition, there are now wonderful opportunities for new operators to fill the vacuum.  Unless, of course, Americans are actually going to stop playing poker on the Internet.

© Copyright 2011, I. Nelson Rose, Encino, California.  All rights reserved worldwide.  Gambling and the Law® is a registered trademark of Professor I. Nelson Rose, www.GamblingAndTheLaw.com.
 

Bill Rini's article is awesome fwiw. As is the Wicked Chops Poker one (first decent article they've written in about two years imo)

Here's a question which only I guess highrollers can answer. Are you going to go to the WSOP this year or next year knowing that you can't play online? I don't think they're will be a problem unless Euros can't access a VPN while in the States.

VPN's are clearly going to be the way forward for anyone that wants to get around the problems.  I use one here to watch British TV and access a few sites that don't take US customers etc.  Played on a site I would rather not name as I value my account there quite a few times using it inadvertently and tried again today and got through with no problems although obviously I have a British address.

howdy

Just a few of my thoughts since the US ban kicked in..

Traffic is obv well down on the big 3 (tilt stars and ub) tilt and ub seem to be the worst affected with Stars losing the smallest% of their mtt fields.Iv not really looked closely buy it seems that non US sites (ipoker,partyongame) have picked up a little bit but nothing too huge.

I'm still pretty much just playing stars and tilt and have noticed the games have become tons fishier with a lot of players i haven't seen before coming out of the woodwork,most seem to be from Russia or Canada,maybe some losing players are trying their luck now the American sharks aren,t there ;carlocitrone;

As an mtt player the drop in the gtee's obv sucks,but they haven't dropped as much as i thought they would,with many of the early evening (uk time) comps having the same gtees as before  ;applause;

Overall I'd say on line poker has gone back to what it was like 3 years ago with smaller fields but worse players,i used to make decent $$ back then so hopefully the good times are on their way back. ;pokergods;

I am also expecting the mtt schedule to shift to more Euro friendly times very soon which is nice too.

I'm sure the US will be back eventually in a regulated way,so if it does return there will probably be an influx of fishy new players who were worried about the legality and difficulty of depositing/cashing out .

One thing i am a little worried about is the safety of my on line bankroll,i know nowt about legal/banking stuff but will be keeping hardly anything on line just in case it gets nabbed by the Whitehouse.

Overall I'm pretty pleased with the way it's looking, obv feel really sorry for the US players but am just thankful i don't live in the land of the free.

Oppertunities


I,v been thinking if there are any unique oppertunities in the short term till things clear up a bit , i noticed UB's bad beat jackpot is v juicy at the mo and with less players should be easier to win (is this right?)

Full tilt had some very decent overlays 2nite (eg 7k in a 35k gtee) and the wsop $200 shootout is only getting 45ish runners for a 12k pkg.

ub 50k donkament remains as do most of the pre ban freerolls and should get tons less runners than usual.

All the ex US sites will be desp to keep hold of their remaining customers so i reckons now is a great time to ask for rakeback or other incentives to stay with them.

Anyone else got any ideas on how to grab a lil +ev out of all this?

 ;goodluck; ;goodluck; ;goodluck; ;goodluck; ;goodluck; ;goodluck; ;goodluck;

US players are going to have to go further lengths than this. Stars have clearly stated they will not unlock US accounts until the owner has a non us bank account and proof of address in a non us country.

Gregior (or anyone else) - I would get my money of UB/Absolute asap, they are clearly going down as they have operated for the last few years. Completely crooked, they are still offering games to US players clearly sticking 2 finger up at the us authorities. Given their history of treating customers like crap, i wouldn't want any money in there.

Totally agree with Longy and said the same to Greg yesterday

If I had money on UB, I would be considering it written off, and trying every which way to get it off.

I agree, Guy/Longy

Do you think we'll see a black market for stars/ftp accounts coupled with VPNs?

On that note if they're going to have to use VPNs etc might some of them decide to play on different sites/networks?

I just found out that one of our clients has just gone to print leading with a story about investing in online gambling, given they sent the copy to the printers last week I'm inclined to think this is more bad timing rather than good on their part.

(http://webr.emv2.com/caspianpublishing/Images/RD/RDDigitalEdition/RD210411-200x264.jpg)

Has anyone got/had money on UB that they have been able to successfully withdraw? I stupidly had $900 on there and requested a withdrawal on Friday and its still pending. :(

gg $900 i guess? :(

i got 3rd in the mini UBOC main event on sunday..

i made withdrawal on monday, (still pending)

but did get an email from them asking to verify my account before withdrawing, which i done today, and they accepted.

I hope i dont lose my fcking rollllllllllllllll :(

Also.... good post Gregior, i agree with the standard, and that it resembles the good old days.

There are opportunities, and i may email ftp about RB when it all settles a bit more

Todd Terry -  "online poker has gone from America forever"

yeah i heard him say this on the pokercast.  I am surprised he said something this dumb, history proves prohibition never works. 

I listened to this as well and when it seemed impossible to be too negative about the situation, he was !

The DoJ to give Stars and Tilt their .com websites back, and will allow them to refund US players their balances. They're not allowed to accept any US deposits or play though.

DoJ Statement (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=1pJJZzHEWVZ92IPw_0GsMu0LJC-635TdShmF9IfgG-He72eUTkcZWm5kHw3H4&hl=en)

hmmm I smell bullsht.  The sites don't need the .com to pay out, so I think that the doj are trying to avoid a legal clash on the .com seizure and are using the player funds issue to save face.  btw FTP say that they have no channel available to pay US players and have been given no accounting for the funds seized.

No mention of cereus in the statement, says it all really.

The DOJ are batting on a sticky wicket here

For most of the indictment it relies on poker being illegal - which it isn't  (per se). This is one of the reasons they will have released the .com's

With good old fashioned American justice, they will put some people away for 20+ years on banking charges and say the whole thing has been a success!

Just make the agreement like the others AP, you stupid stupid fucks

arrrrgh. got a bad feeling :( lol

I asked for my roll to come out on friday, had nothing uptill today, logged on ub today and had chance to cancel withdrawal, probs gunna take em weeks to go through all the withdrawal requests, so i cancelled mine and will keep on playing for now

lol - is anyone else getting spam mails from prehistoric sites - yesterday Paradise quoting sn and today Planet Poker ffs!

yea amatay your fucked m8

If old paradise came back id sign up tomorrow

*poof*

Donuts mmmmmm

the temptation of the cigs and cigars wld be too much for me......

A Full Tilt-supported televised poker game in Cardiff, UK — The Poker Lounge — was canceled mid-event today, when the TV production company walked off the set after an expected wire-transfer from Ireland did not arrive, reliable sources say.

Supposedly, Presentable Productions were waiting on a second installment of funds from Full Tilt subsidiary Pocket Kings that had been promised by today, and at 4pm GMT, after recording the 3rd heat, they sent the camera crew and players home, with no plans for return. (The show is an 8-heat event featuring $20k sit-n-gos with seven players at each table.)

It remains to be seen whether this was just reactionary angst over a technical blip that could normally be resolved with little problem, or indicative of cash-flow and money-transfer issues that have far more severe implications. But either way, it does confirm a certain unease in the UK after problems in the US.

Presentable has been producing poker television shows since 1999, when their show, Late Night Poker, originally debuted.

+1

where it all began for me, i remember getting excited to play the monkey, and the starfish every day, and maybe being lucky enough to satelite into the $30r (whatever that was called)

did flushy win his heat or not played

I have been paiiiiiiiiid on stars and tilt now from my cashouts at the weekend. Happy days.

(http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo151/outragous76/sickbarge.jpg)

Lol That's not a ship.

Guy prob degenned his ship away and got left with that Canal boat.

me too. but i snapredeposited sigh....

i thought it meant stars had left guy high and dry.....thought i was on a different level....turns out i'm on a different planet

Lol! I think that is my best post ever on blonde! Wasn't meant to be a ship, and I guess I should have quoted longy too. Keep guessing thou! I laughed heartily when I found the pic (esp after what I googled!) still chuckling now if I'm being honest!

A long boat?

Longy cashing out, surely a brag, '76 typed too quick and got barge??

that's what i thought judging by the pic title

wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

its a sic barg(e)

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee UB paid up!

Dear Simon Jones

Your Payout of 891 USD for Account ID 8796706 has been submitted.

For more details on the status of your request, please click here.

We thank you for your continued business and are always available if you should have any questions.

UB Team

what happened to all those playing touneys on stars/tilt during the seizure?

Afaik they played on as normal, only probs were after logging out.

PokerScout latest traffic stats.....

Latest post-Black Friday traffic stats (left US):
PokerStars -6885 (down 24%)
Full Tilt Poker -8528 (down 48%)
Cereus Network -1076 (down 53%)

Latest post-Black Friday traffic stats (European):
PartyPoker +361 (up 10%)
iPoker Network +190 (up 5%)
Ongame Network -19 (down 1%)
888Poker +99 (up 7%)

Latest post-Black Friday traffic stats (still in US):
Merge Network +331 (up 36%)
Bodog +213 (up 36%)
Cake Network +170 (up 31%)

A lot of this is plain wrong.

mbn

"Absolute Poker issues statement

A statement from Absolute Poker:

“Absolute Poker has retained Blank Rome LLP as United States counsel to provide legal advice in relation to civil and criminal matters filed in federal court in Manhattan and made public on April 15, 2011. Absolute Poker is aware that on April 19, 2011, the US Attorney for the Southern District of New York entered into separate agreements with FullTilt Poker and PokerStars. These agreements concern the use of the respective www.fulltiltpoker.com and www.pokerstars.com domain names. The US Attorney, in a press release dated April 20, 2011, stated that the government is willing to enter the same agreement with Absolute Poker and UB.

“At this time, Absolute Poker’s top priority is, and must be, the refund of balances to its and UB’s US players. However, given the far-reaching consequences of the US Attorney’s actions for Absolute Poker and for the entire poker community, Absolute Poker believes that the responsible course of action is to review with its attorneys the relevant court filings before taking any action.

“Absolute Poker believes that the US Attorney shares the view that refunds to US players are an immediate and pressing concern, and Absolute Poker wishes to make clear that it wants to work cooperatively with the US Attorney to safely and efficiently return its players’ funds. To that end, Absolute Poker’s counsel has initiated communications with the US Attorney’s office and plans to continue proactively advancing those discussions.

“Further information and timely updates will be provided to Absolute Poker/UB’s players as we move forward.”

Unibet attempts to take advantage of the situation in the US with a 750k Euro guarantee tournament. They miss the guarantee by 247k

nice
whats the buy in?

Micogaming rather than just Unibet. It's been scheduled for a few months but after Black Friday Micro upped the gtd from 500k to 750k.

It's a €300+€20 two dayer.

Playtech Poker Revenue Down 33 Percent

First Quarter Revenue At iPoker Plunges From Same Period Last Year

by Brendan Murray 

Playtech, the publicly-quoted online gaming software provider which owns the iPoker network, today reported poker revenue down 33 percent in the first quarter of 2011 to €5.7 million compared to €8.5 million a year earlier.

Excluding France, whose market was regulated during 2010, poker revenue was down 25 percent.

The company did not give any reason for the significant decline but made a statement about the recent U.S. market shut out of some of its competitors saying, “The actions taken by the US Department of Justice against certain US-facing poker sites on 15 April has prompted considerable volatility, however Playtech believes that this action will in the longer term have a positive benefit to the iPoker networks both in the dot.com segment and also in the European regulated markets.” 


Total revenues at the company, which also includes casino and bingo, were up 2 percent to €36.7 million.
 
 


   
      

"PokerScout" have reported on how things have settled the weekend after Black Friday.

At the foot of the article are the Black Friday - v following weekend traffic stats, too.

http://www.pokerscout.com/news/weekly-traffic-update.aspx?year=2011&week=18

Overall, 'Stars are reported to be down 28%, FT has bounced back from the worst & is now 35% adrift of pre Black Friday traffic, but Cereus bombed 40% the first weekend, & a further 42% last weekend, to end 65% down. Absolutely horrendous.

PokerScout summarised thus......

Post-Black Friday performance

Overall, the worldwide online poker market shrank by 22% in one week. Most of those losses came from the Big Two: PokerStars and Full Tilt Poker.

To assess the consequences of the US online poker crackdown, we looked at weekend traffic the week before Black Friday and compared it to the weekend immediately following the crackdown. We also looked at the next weekend (Easter weekend) to see how the sites are faring in the new online poker environment.

Highlights and notes:

- Cereus Network has lost nearly 2/3 of its traffic

- Full Tilt Poker managed a startling comeback after Black Friday. The reason is unclear, but it may have something to do with FTOPS XX which is underway. In any case, the site has still lost over 1/3 of its traffic.

- Among the remaining US-facing networks, the largest are also growing the fastest

- European sites have not posted especially strong gains since Black Friday

- The second weekend was Easter weekend, when traffic is naturally lower than usual

The reason Tilt bounced back was because they lost a lot of non-US traffic when their client stopped working after the .com domain was seized, and players had to download a new one from the .co.uk site.

how did cereus still have players?!

Superusers gonna superuse.

Maybe it was the fact that they effectively tried to kick-off anyone from their network who was deemed to be a winning player, thus driving away their highest-raking players?

Link below to the Poker Scout traffic Rankings for Black Friday & the two subsequent weeks.

In short, Cereus has totally imploded, dropping a whopping 40%, 42% & 30% on successive weekends, for a total downturn of 76%, & this is despite the fact it's suggested they are still allowing real-money players to play from the US, which cannot last much longer.

'Stars seem to be down 26% overall.

FT seem to be 38% down.

Overall, the global Online Poker Market appears to have shrunk by 18% since Black Friday.

Of the street-legal sites still operating in the US, Merge have gained most, by far, 69% up, with Bodog & Cake both losing share in "weekend 3" & now only 23% up since B-F. Everleaf has barely moved.

For the bigger ("major") European sites, there has been very little change, with Party & 888 gaining 10% & 5% respectively, whilst i-Poker & OnGame have actually posted net declines of 5% & 7% respectively, which is a real eye-opener, given the context.

The nitty gritty is here.....

http://www.pokerscout.com/news/weekly-traffic-update.aspx?year=2011&week=19

 

Looking like gg Cereus

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/can-we-discuss-cereus-specifically-1021513/index17.html (post 1663 onwards)

Good riddance imo, the only people I feel sorry for are the players who have suffered at the hands of this company.

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=53137.0

UB & AP filing for bankruptcy, shame

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/ub-ap-shareholders-filing-bankruptcy-article-1032457/

What % of players on UB/AP had no clue about the shadiness around them? I am guessing a shit load of casual players, perhaps not so much in the US because its harder to get money online so they need to be savvier, but there must be loads of UB players who have been blissfully unaware of all this.

Good piece on PokerNews today too....

Rumors have circulated around the poker community for days that Blanca Gaming of Antigua, the parent company to UB and Absolute Poker, would file for bankruptcy, leaving player balances in limbo. On Wednesday, Mike Brunker of MSNBC confirmed those rumors when he reported that Blanca Gaming had sent an email to shareholders outlining their bankruptcy plans.

According to Madeira Fjord of Norway, which represents the company's shareholders, Blanca Gaming will file for bankruptcy protection in Norway. In the email, the company said they had “no cash on hand and no prospects for any cash flow for the foreseeable future.” It went on to say: “Most importantly, Blanca Gaming has provided notice … that it is currently unable to make any payments toward its debt obligations. Additionally, Blanca has further advised that there will be no future payments.”

This comes on the heels of Absolute Poker and UB laying off more than 300 employees, approximately 95% of the staff, in its Costa Rican operations center. All of this, of course, has come as a result of the indictments issued by the U.S. Department of Justice to three of the biggest online poker companies in the world on April 15, 2011. It was then that eleven people, including Scott Tom and Brent Beckley, the founders of Absolute Poker, were named in the indictment by the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York.

Meanwhile, two other sites that were involved in the indictments, Poker Stars and Full Tilt Poker, have taken steps in the direction of reimbursing their players. The former has already done so while the latter has stated their intentions to do so.

If recent developments are any indication, speculation that player balances on both UB and Absolute would never be returned may just prove to be true. Blanca Gaming did not respond to MSNBC when reached for comment

$300,000 on UB currently being offered for $60,000 according to our Super Sleuth.

msnbc.com has a good piece on it, too.....the party is well & truly over.

One of three online poker companies named last month in a federal indictment will be forced to enter bankruptcy, leaving American card players with money on deposit with the Absolute and UB poker sites at least temporarily empty handed.

Madeira Fjord of Norway, which represents shareholders in the poker websites’ parent company, Blanca Gaming of Antigua, said in an email to shareholders this week  that it planned to file for bankruptcy protection in Norway after being informed that the latter company had “no cash on hand and no prospects for any cash flow for the foreseeable future.”

“Most importantly, Blanca Gaming has provided notice … that it is currently unable to make any payments toward its debt obligations,” it said. “Additionally, Blanca has further advised that there will be no future payments.”

Meantime, a source in Costa Rica, where Absolute Poker and UB (formerly Ultimate Bet) have their operations center, told msnbc.com that more than 300 customer support and marketing employees – approximately 95 percent of the staff — had been laid off.

Blanca Gaming could not be reached for comment Wednesday.

Absolute Poker and two of its founders — Scott Tom and Brent Beckley — were named in an April 15 indictment by the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York along with two other popular poker sites — Poker Stars and Full Tilt Poker. UB was not directly named in the indictment, but it has common ownership and shares operations with Absolute Poker through parent company, the Cereus Network, which is in turn owned by Blanca Gaming.

The indictment alleges that the sites committed bank fraud, money laundering and illegal gambling offenses by “tricking” U.S. banks into processing online gambling transactions, a violation of the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006. The indictment seeks at least $3 billion in penalties and forfeiture.

Advertise | AdChoicesAdvertise | AdChoicesAdvertise | AdChoicesThe government also seized five Internet domain names used by the companies, but later relinquished control of those owned by Poker Stars and Full Tilt to facilitate repayment of U.S. players’ deposits.

The former has begun repaying money on deposit to U.S. poker players while the latter has said it is making arrangements to do so.

The U.S. Attorney’s Office said it was willing to make a similar deal with Absolute Poker and UB, but no agreement was forthcoming. Nor have the sites been honoring withdrawal requests from non-U.S. players, according to “Fonzi,” who runs the Holdem Poker Chat, an affiliate marketing website that first reported on the bankruptcy announcement.

“The problem is they haven’t paid anyone outside the U.S.,” he said. “You are allowed to request $250 a week — request — but that doesn’t mean you’re going to get it.”

Fonzi, who spoke to msnbc.com on condition that he not be identified by his real name, said he expects that the bankruptcy means that players will never receive the money they deposited with Absolute Poker and UB.

“I already consider my money gone,” he said, adding that he had a “few hundred dollars” on deposit with the sites.

Absolute Poker, which was founded in by four fraternity brothers at the University of Montana in 2002, grew to become one of the top poker sites for American card players when it refused to stop accepting bets from U.S. players following passage of the UIGEA. But a cheating scandal in 2007 that the company blamed on a rogue insider shook the faith of many players, leading to erosion of its market share.

Management of the company, which merged with UB sometime in the mid-2000s, also has been involved in a running battle with shareholders over what many considered runaway spending. In 2009, for example, the company reported a loss of $33.7 million despite income of $215.3 million, according to the St. Petersburg (Fla.) Times.

Shareholders were working on a plan to sell the company last month, but that was quashed when the federal indictment was handed down, the newspaper reported Sunday.

Think It just shows UB/Absolute to be the crooks that they are; their directors living a life of luxury in costa rica or Antigua and paying themselves exorbitant wages and consultancy fees.... so much so that they make a loss even with huge revenues.... I think it looks like they knew the writing was on the wall hence why the past few years they have been slicing chunks out of it to set themselves up for life. Really hope the US authorities can get them extradited.

Think absolute/UB are the strongest case why this game should be legalised over the pond.... so it can be monitored and regulated under their jurisdiction aswell as earn the US billions in tax.

wow thats crazy
my mate sold 1k for 650

but 300k for 60k
shows how unconfident of withdrawing $$$ off the site

Dude. I'm curious about your avatar. I mean, why ffs?

While I'm on the subject, I also hate gatso's "Yeasty clunge" strapline.

 ;technophobe;


And breathe.....

Anyone managed to get a withdrawal off Full Tilt within the last two weeks? Been waiting 13 days now for a Neteller withdrawal..

Withdrew to my visa debit Monday, arrived yesterday.
Dont know about Neteller though.

withdrew to my back account on friday iirc

and its hit my accounts now so all is good

Sorry Dog... just love dumb and dumber and that scene :-) had it for ages now just cant be bothered changing it

Tilt to Neteller is taking an age for everyone, in the last couple of days people have started to get their money.

i just got a 5fig xfer yesterday from tilt> neteller. I cashed out weekend of black friday.

Glad the Neteller withdrawals are coming through, requested mine a week after black Friday so will hopefully get mine in the next week.
However the e-mail from Full Tilt didn't offer any update at all.

Hello Paul.

We apologize for the situation here.

As we mentioned in previous email that we are working on it to have the option installed as soon as possible.

However, we are not in a position to give out an exactly date and time that the transaction will be done as there are several parties involved.

Rest assured we are working on the alternative solution for our players who have been effected by this issue.

We appreciate your patience and cooperation at this stage.

Regards,

Ammad
Full Tilt Poker Support

That would certainly bother me...


He doesn't know the difference between affected and effected! Obviously unreliable.

Will be pleased when I get an exactly date..

Received a withdrawal from Tilt to Neteller yesterday, waited 2 weeks or so on it.

same here

Some sick withdrawal brags on this thread.

I don't know about withdrawals but I can confirm that depositting remains as easy as ever.

Yup they def still accept snap deposits

Stars and AP/UB offices raided in Costa Rica by OIJ (which I think is the Costa Rican equivalent of the FBI).

The Department of Homeland Security has requested that Mozilla, the maker of the Firefox browser, remove an add-on that allows web surfers to access websites whose domain names were seized by the government for copyright infringement, Mozilla’s lawyer said Thursday.

But Mozilla did not remove the MafiaaFire add-on, and instead has demanded the government explain why it should. Two weeks have passed, and the government has not responded to Mozilla’s questions, including whether the government considers the add-on unlawful and whether Mozilla is “legally obligated” to remove it. The DHS has also not provided the organization with a court order requiring its removal, the lawyer said.

“One of the fundamental issues here is under what conditions do intermediaries accede to government requests that have a censorship effect and which may threaten the open internet,” Harvey Anderson, Mozilla’s lawyer, wrote Thursday on his blog.

Neither Homeland Security nor Anderson immediately responded for comment.

The add-on in question redirects traffic from seized domains to other domains outside the United States’ reach. Since last year, the U.S. government has seized at least 120 domains in an antipiracy assault known as “Operation in Our Sites.” The domains are taken under the same federal statute used to seize drug houses.

Many of the seized sites have been redirected by their owners to domains being hosted where the United States cannot legally touch them The United States controls so-called top-level domains like .com, .net and .org.

The add-on has been downloaded more than 6,400 times

In the days after "Black Friday", non-US online poker rooms such as Party Poker went on the offensive, rightly sensing that Pokerstars, Full Tilt Poker and UB/AP were vulnerable. After years of watching Pokerstars and Full Tilt Poker build up their market share (thanks to their decision to remain open to the US market after 2006), Party Poker and other non-US rooms finally thought that their time had come, and that the playing field had been leveled overnight.

After "Black Friday", the online poker community was bewildered and nervous. Would Pokerstars, Full Tilt Poker and AP/UB collapse under the weight of a DOJ investigation? Would US players be repaid? Would non-US players be repaid?

It was imperative that all three networks stabilize their operations and pay out US players ASAP in order to maintain the trust of their customers. One room managed to do just that (Pokerstars), while Full Tilt Poker and UB/AP continue to trip, bumble and stumble.

Thanks to the strict licensing requirements of the Isle of Man government, Pokerstars has always kept player funds segregated from company assets. Thanks to this policy, Pokerstars was able to pay back their US players quickly after getting the green light from US authorities.

Full Tilt Poker and UB/AP, on the other hand, are a completely different story. It's probably going to be May 15th before we even get another UPDATE from Full Tilt Poker in regards to US player payouts, and UB/AP.. well, we won't even get into that, as that appears to be an even bigger mess.

Although Full Tilt Poker and UB/AP continue to service the non-US markets, players outside of the US HAVE to be watching closely in regards to US player payouts.

In one corner, you have Pokerstars. Pokerstars started paying back US players roughly 10 days ago, plus they have also allowed US players to start cashing out their FPPs. It's clear that Pokerstars was on the ball when it came to their accounting and the segregation of player funds.

In the other corner you have Full Tilt Poker and UB/AP. Neither site has paid back their US players, and both sites are looking increasingly bad with each passing day. Full Tilt Poker has been very slow in handling cashouts for their non-US players, while UB/AP has limited withdrawals for their non-US players (and these withdrawals have been very slow in getting processed).

--

According to Pokerscout.com, Pokerstars has lost roughly 26% of its traffic since "Black Friday". A steep hit, but certainly not disastrous.

Given how well they have handled things in the post-"Black Friday" environment, I would expect Pokerstars to continue growing in the weeks and months ahead. I think that Pokerstars is going to grab a large number of Full Tilt Poker's non-US players thanks to the response of the two sites to "Black Friday". After all, with each passing day that Full Tilt Poker doesn't pay back its US players, Pokerstars looks like a better and safer option.

Thanks to Pokerstars' quick (and successful) handling of their US players, they have been able to head off an advance from sites such as Party Poker. Party Poker has seen its traffic grow 10% since "Black Friday", but most of that growth came in the first week after April 15th. Pokerstars is still where most of the action is, and with worries about Pokerstars' survivability having been largely removed, players will continue to flock there.

Until online poker legislation is signed into law in the United States, I just don't see anybody coming even close to challenging Pokerstars. In my opinion, their handling of "Black Friday" will eventually put even more distance between them and competitors such as Full Tilt Poker.

http://www.pokerkingblog.com/2011/05/08/pokerstars-is-winning-big-in-post-black-friday-environment/

Elaborate???

They may well be but they have handled the situation extremely well and are currently looking very good.

FT are not looking at all good and their silence/lack of positive action must bring into question why the average player should continue to play there.

Daniel Tzvetkoff (Australian payment processor) did business with these poker rooms to help them avoid the restrictions put in place after UIEGA. He decided to skim a little more off the top to put in his own back pocket.

They weren't happy about this and the next time he was in the US, the Feds got a tip-off from someone and he was nicked.

A few months later, he was mysteriously out and about again - speculation is he sung like a canary and gave the Feds the evidence they needed to do Black Friday.

I assume this is what Flushy was hinting at.

May not actually have been Stars that dobbed him in though...

That's all well and good to blame stars flushy but tilt are handling this far worse.

Tilt will pay everyone out as soon as Flushy agrees to stake them for the withdrawals.

UB.com's team of sponsored pros are the latest casualties as the fallout from Black Friday continues. Blanca Gaming, the parent company of UB.com and Absolute Poker, confirmed in a statement last night that it would be releasing of all 11 of their sponsored players.

The statement read, “We are very disappointed that we have been compelled to sever ties with our sponsored pros. Over the years, the Company has been successful in gathering a group of young, extraordinarily talented and brand-appropriate poker professionals who have proudly sported its logos. We are truly saddened that circumstances have dictated this course of action, and we regret that we are no longer in a position to partner with our sponsored pros, or to provide them with a source of income for playing the game that they love. We appreciate their significant time and dedication shared with us, and we thank them for the loyalty and patience they have continued to show us even during the unsettling events of the past few weeks. We respect and admire them for their many accomplishments, both at the poker tables and away from them, and we will always be grateful for their valuable contributions to building the UB and Absolute Poker brands and to creating a rock-solid community at the pair of online poker rooms.”


Joe Sebok and Prahlad Friedman are the biggest names to have their contracts terminated. The other players to be shown the door are Eric “Basebaldy” Baldwin, Maria Ho, Brandon Cantu, Tiffany Michelle, Scott Ian, “Hollywood” Dave Stann, Adam “Roothlus” Levy, Bryan Devonshire and Trishelle Cannatella.

[X] Googled her
[ ] Safesearch was on
[X] I'm at work
[X] Oops

[X] Note made for private perusal later this evening.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trishelle_Cannatella

Cannatella was born on November 4, 1979, and raised in Cut Off, Louisiana.

Please let there be a Button, Louisiana nearby.

She dates Jeff Madsen, lovely girl even though she did mention Real World LV within the first 1 minute of meeting her....

Got an email from AP, saying my $250 withdrawal (maximum allowed) had now been submitted. I made it on the sunday or monday after Blik Friday.

I know they've finally made agreements with the DoJ, is it something i shouldn't be getting to excited about?

Or is it a ray of hope that i may be getting my roll off?

.....  ;booder; ...i do like this smiley face

If i could comment i would, but i can't so i won't

wowsay

Got paid by Tilt today after three weeks, if their struggling paying out non US players it'll be interesting to see how long it takes them to pay all their US customers.

I think that "struggling paying out non US players" could be a little misleading.

I withdrew from FT about two weeks ago using my Visa debit and it was in my account within 48 hours.

There have been problems with processing Neteller and some other methods of withdrawal but whether that is FT's fault is a somewhat moot point imho.

i had no problems withdrawing a large sum from FTP using neteller.

took a while to begin with, but that was quite obviously going to happen, got it through last week.

Im pretty sure Stars and FTP are fine now, its just AP, im worried about.

Pokerstars has returned more than US$100m to US online poker players from its “past US-facing operations” nearly a month after 'Black Friday'

In a statement released this afternoon Pokerstars said it had returned the money and that it would continue to “service requests” following the company’s agreement with the US Department of Justice on April 20 that allowed US customers to cash out their balances with the Isle of Man licensed operator. It is unknown if Pokerstars owes any further funds to US players.

An official release from Pokerstars on 27 April confirmed the company had begun the process of returning player funds and that “the funds to cover these withdrawal requests are readily available”.

The founders of PokerStars, Full Tilt and Absolute Poker were among 11 people accused of alleged bank fraud, illegal gambling offences and money laundering in an indictment unsealed by federal prosecutors on 15 April.

The 52-page indictment and civil complaint seen seeks the forfeiture of at least US$3bn in civil money laundering penalties from the three companies and their defendants, alleging they “deceived or directed others to deceive United States banks and financial institutions into processing billions of dollars in payments.”

Restraining orders were also issued against 76 bank accounts in 14 countries used by the poker companies and their payment processors. Five internet domain names used by the poker companies in the US were also seized. An FBI notice of the indictment charges greeted players seeking to access PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UltimateBet.com, UB.com and AbsolutePoker.com this evening.

Since the indictments only four individuals, all payment processors, have been arrested, charged and bailed.

John Campos, one of the principals of SunFirst Bank in Utah was arrested on 15 April and accused of allegedly processing gambling payments for poker companies in return for a $10m investment in the bank. Bradley Franzen, one of the alleged payment processors indicted pleaded not guilty to the nine charges brought against him. Chad Elie pleaded not guilty to nine charges including conspiracy to violate UIGEA. Ira Rubin was arrested in Guatemala. The 52-year-old Costa Rica resident was charged on nine counts including bank fraud and money laundering allegations.

The whereabouts of the remaining indicted individuals including Isai Scheinberg, founder of Pokerstars and Paul Tate, former payment processor manager is unknown.

Bill Rini's blog

There seems to be some confusion about what player account segregation means and how this all plays out in the recent DOJ action seizing bank accounts and poker sites being unable to pay back players.

Please consider the diagram below. It’s a very simple version of how payment processing works (or did work up until April 15). What the sites were doing was more complex but this should be simple enough so that people can easily see what is happening.


(http://www.billrini.com/wp-content/uploads/bank-deposit.gif)

On one side you have what’s going on in the United States and on the other side you have what’s happening overseas. Now let’s just follow a hypothetical deposit request to this fictional poker site located overseas.

Please note the steps, 1, 2, and 3. At Point 1 you are essentially asking your bank to send money to some Bogus Biz that the poker room has set up to look like a legitimate company. In reality the Bogus Biz is requesting it but this isn’t an advanced course in payment processing.

At Point 2 your bank authorizes the transaction because Bogus Biz claims that it sells flowers online or some other BS. At Point 3 the funds clear and end up in the bank account of Bogus Biz.

From there money goes back and forth to the Poker Room’s legitimate overseas bank account where it segregates your player funds from their operating funds.

Now, that doesn’t guarantee that any of the poker room actually segregated their player funds. They could have commingled funds. However, I wanted to point out that having difficulty making cash outs and commingling are not necessarily the same issue.

Now, here’s where the problem comes in. It’s expensive moving that money back and forth between the legitimate bank and the Bogus Biz bank account. You might be taking currency hits in each direction, transaction fees, etc, etc. Plus the constant transfer of funds might look like money laundering so the Poker Room decides to keep a healthy amount of the player’s money in the bank account of the Bogus Biz so that when players request cashouts and such they don’t have to transfer money back and forth between the legitimate bank and the bank of the Bogus Biz.

And it’s not really all that ominous when you think about Bogus Biz’s bank account like your PayPal account. If you run a business and allow your customers to purchase a 1 year subscription to your website and they pay you via PayPal do you immediately transfer the money to your bank account as soon as you receive it (even if you keep the funds segregated in case of chargebacks, cancellations, etc)? More likely you keep a “working” balance in the PayPal account in case another subscriber cancels his subscription or in case any charge backs or other refunds need to be processed.

And most eWallets like Neteller, Moneybookers, etc work the same way. Money goes in and out all day long and at the end of the day the balance of deposits and withdrawals is deposited into the poker room’s eWallet account. Again, it’s not uncommon to keep a large balance in case one day you have more withdrawals than you do deposits.

So what happens when the DOJ seizes the bank account of Bogus Biz? Technically the funds were segregated but they’re in the hands of the DOJ. This becomes a cashflow issue for the Poker Room now depending on how much they were holding in the United States in banks associated with bogus companies.

My guess is that the reason why Full Tilt and Cereus are having problems paying players back right now is due to how much was tied up in US players. Full Tilt had 30% – 35% drop in cash game players right after Black Friday and UB/Absolute was something closer to almost 50%. Whereas PokerStars was about 25%-ish.

That leaves someone like PokerStars with less overall exposure. They can dip into operating funds and pay out players. But the larger the percentage the more difficult it is to dip into the company’s pockets and hope and pray you get the money back from the DOJ sometime down the road. Just the other day the PPA’s John Pappas estimated that US players have anywhere from $100 million – $500 million tied up in the indicted poker sites. Let’s say that $250 million is the total exposure. PokerStars might be able to swallow $100 million or so from operating funds to pay off players but Tilt might be scrambling to figure out how to put together that kind of cash (this is just a guess). It’s also why the outlook for UB/AP looks so bleak. I don’t think with all of the problems they’ve been having, the mass layoff of staff, etc that they’re in a position to cover the player deposits from operating funds.

I don’t know whether Pappas’ comments cover this but everything that the player holds in the account including frequent player points, bonuses, tournament tickets, etc all have cash value. While a site may segregate cash it’s a completely different issue whether or not the cash to cover all of those other items were completely segregated from operational funds.

I’ve seen other sites discuss this as if the domain-use agreement (or possibly even other agreements) Stars and Tilt signed with the US gave them back access to the money seized in the bank accounts if they could prove that they were player funds. This is supposedly how PokerStars is able to pay players (which I don’t believe). I’ve got the Full Tilt agreement in front of me and there is no such provision. The closest it even comes to any of that is saying that it does not prohibit Full Tilt from refunding player money. In other words, no new charges will be brought for returning player funds. It says nothing about releasing any seized funds to facilitate that. Nor have the DOJ or any of the poker rooms announced that any funds have been or will be released by the DOJ that I’m aware of. In fact, Full Tilt said in their press release regarding the domain-use agreement “the government has not agreed to permit any of the seized player funds to be returned to the players.”

Also keep in mind that many of the bank accounts frozen or seized by the DOJ were explicitly designed hide the true nature of the transactions. So it’s highly doubtful they labeled any accounts as “player” accounts when their bogus business was supposedly selling flowers online. It’s all fine and dandy that you segregated your player funds back in Isle of Man (or Dublin or Costa Rica) but the DOJ seized the bank accounts of Bogus Biz.

Here’s the relevant text from Full Tilt’s press release about the domain-use agreement:

    In addition, the agreement represents an important first step towards returning funds to U.S. players because it allows Full Tilt Poker to utilize its domain to facilitate the withdrawal of player funds. But, unfortunately, there remain significant practical and legal impediments to returning funds to players in the immediate future. As a result of the recent enforcement action, there exists no authorized U.S. payment channel through which to make refunds; Full Tilt Poker has no accounting of the millions of dollars of player funds that were seized by the government; and the government has not agreed to permit any of the seized player funds to be returned to the players. Finally, there are numerous legal and jurisdictional issues that must be considered before poker winnings can be paid out to players throughout the United States. While Full Tilt Poker continues to believe that online poker is not illegal under federal law or in 49 states, the indictment and civil forfeiture action filed last Friday require Full Tilt Poker to proceed with caution in this area.

As Grange95 points out in this CrAAKKer article, Full Tilt has to meet other requirements to keep their license. For instance:

Poker sites are required to maintain certain financial ratios, including total assets of 25% in excess of total liabilities [(TA-TL) / TL > 25%], current assets greater than current liabilities, and cash greater than amounts due customers.

I always found the wording in the press release a little strange but this could be the reason behind the phrase “there are numerous legal and jurisdictional issues that must be considered before poker winnings can be paid out to players…” There might be Alderney Gaming Commission asset ratio requirements that they would fall below if they paid out their entire US customer base using operating capital.

I want to stress that all of that is speculation. I have no proof whatsoever other than the fact that the US DOJ basically gave Full Tilt a free pass to return player funds but Full Tilt is hedging in every way possible. I’m just looking into probable reasons why PokerStars was able to get their refunds up and running fairly quickly while Full Tilt said that their remained “significant” impediments to returning funds to players in the “immediate future.”

Sure, I’ll give you that it is a logistical nightmare. It’s not like anybody built in a “Refund Everybody Their Money” feature into their software platform. But I know it was only 2 or 3 weeks between when the UIGEA was passed in Congress and when it was signed into law on Oct 13, 2006 and Party was ready to begin processing payouts almost immediately. Sure, it might take a week or two to figure out what the cash value of this or that is and to make sure that you apply a fair value to everything but it’s not impossible. It’s not a reason to issue a press release hedging on when you’ll be able to pay out customers. If it was simply a logistical problem then you can issue a press release that says, “Although we’ve struck this deal with the DOJ we still need about 2 or 3 weeks to figure out how points, tournament tickets, pending bonuses, etc will be handled. Once we get that all figured out we’ll beging the cashout process for US players.”

It’s also telling that despite posting updates on 2+2 (which I’ve criticized as probably only 10% – 20% of their players read the forums regularly and are thus completely in the dark about what’s going on) on 4/28 (which was a full week after they signed the domain-use agreement) and 5/5 they’re still giving uncomfortably vague answers. For instance, on 4/28 FTPDoug said:

    1. Any estimate on when we [US players] can begin cashing out?

    - Here’s the official statement about this question: “Full Tilt Poker is diligently working on return of US Players funds which is a top priority and will have a further update for US customers by early next week.”

And his next update on 5/5 he posted again saying:

    We are continuing to work on facilitating the withdrawal of US Player funds. It remains our top priority, and we do apologize for the delay.

The fact that neither FTP nor UB/Absolute will specifically define what is holding up the payouts is why I indulge in speculating beyond simple logistical issues. If it was an issue with finding a payment processor in the US who will do business with them then why not say that “We’re negotiating with banking relationships in the US that will allow us to transfer funds.” The fact that this very important but simple question keeps getting skirted is very troubling and makes one wonder what is really going on.

Realistically, the only thing holding Full Tilt (or AP/UB) from refunding player balances today are:

1. All of their banking relationships are burned and they’re frantically looking for new ones.

2. They have logistical issues making sure players are fully compensated for points, bonuses, etc.

3. They have cash flow issues which have them scrambling for a capital infusion.

Which of the above is the most likely reason for overly vague updates about when players will receive funds?

Unlike UB/AP which is probably bankrupt, I think that Full Tilt is simply in a cashflow bind. Players are likely to get their cash back. My gut says that Full Tilt needs to work out how they’re going to lose all of that cash so rapidly and still maintain their liquidity ratios for gaming regulators.

Am I sure of this? No. But the evidence seems to support this thesis more than other possibilities.

A Maryland federal grand jury indicted two more online gambling businesses today.

an affidavit from a Maryland Homeland Security special agent reveals many of the details of the case. Charged in the affidavit are two companies and their owners: ThrillX Systems Ltd., owned by Darren Wright and David Parchomchuk and K23 Financial Services (BMX Entertainment), run by Ann Marie Puig. The charges include running an illegal gambling business and money laundering. These charges are noteworthy because bank fraud is absent.

Ten domain names and eleven bank accounts were seized in six different countries. Here is the full list of seized domain names:

    * Bookmaker.com
    * Truepoker.com
    * Doylesroom.com
    * Beted.com
    * Betehorse.com
    * Betgrandesports.com
    * Goldbnarchcasino.com
    * Funtimebingo.com
    * 2Betdsi.com

The Baltimore Sun reports that the domains were meant to be changed to a banner announcing the seizures by mid-afternoon Monday, but that they have not yet been changed.

The affadavit reveals that the government conducted an undercover operation, starting their own payment processor named “Linwood Payment Solutions”. Undercover agents met with top managers of gambling organizations, recording those meetings. Linwood then processed millions of dollars in transactions during the past two years for a number of Internet gambling organizations including Absolute Poker, Ultimate Bet, BetEd, K23 Limited, and Nemesis Group doing business as Chargestream Ltd.

RIP Doyle ('s Room)

lol wtf - so the us govt kept the liquidity going in AP/UB.....

RIP truepoker one of first sites i tried online before i found stars

So DoylesRoom is closed?

Was/is Chris Moorman & a few others sponsored by them?

"gambling911" quoted Doyle as saying (this was just 1 week ago).....

“Reluctantly, I have decided to terminate my endorsement contract with Doylesroom.com. It pains me to leave at this time. I have aspirations of reentering the online poker business when the United States Government passes legislation, that officially legalize online poker sites. Doylesroom management has decided to continue to serve U.S. customers. Although they believe they have the right to market the name Doylesroom and to use my name and likeness for a period of time, I have asked them not to.  Good luck-Shuffle up and deal.”

"gambling911 went on to comment....

".....It has always been unclear what Doyle’s relationship with the site was/is –whether he is a sponsored player, simply leasing his name brand to the site, or in some way part of the ownership—but clearly the fallout from Black Friday has scared many top poker players who have been linked to ownership percentages in different online poker rooms....."

Thanks for the message Andrew....

......I am sure the WSOP will be the most interesting for years, who will turn up and what deals will now be struck ? Though things seem bad at the moment I believe that in the long term poker will grow as once the illegal sites issue is resolved and the focus can be firmly put back on legalising the game state by state. Watch out for IGT they have a huge influence and a big budget, also now that the NFL has withdrawn its objection to on line gaming the path is clear for a new bill.

whats the score with FTP at the moment have all there payout problems been sorted?

I have just spoken to the team that came back from the WPT in Bellagio and there appeared to have been several unhappy players still without payouts. I think some are starting to to receive funds but several are "in transit" I struggle to believe that the stars will turn out to the WSOP if this is not resolved but I am sure the next week will be the time to put up or shut up.

i was thinking of playing some of the wsop mirror games but not if i aint gonna get paid if i bink

http://www.cardrunners.com/blog/Zimba/full-tilt-poker-the-60-million-cost-of-business

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/162983-barton-goes-all-in-for-online-poker-bill

http://news.bluffmagazine.com/phil-ivey-files-suit-against-tiltware-not-playing-wsop-20981/

Apparently No Phil Ivey at WSOP and filing suit against Tiltware, if true.


BLUFF has independently confirmed that the statements have come directly from the Phil Ivey management team.

http://www.justin.tv/quadjackslive?utm_campaign=live_embed_click&utm_source=www.quadjacks.com#/w/1278678208

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/nick-rainey-talking-candidly-about-ftp-quadjacks-1046107/

Having just listened to the 2+2 pokercast - if i had any money on FTP  - it would be getting cashed out immd!

Hi

I am in Vegas now and the cash games are very busy to say the least and the Venetian deep-stack is hitting 850 today. The poker room managers are saying since black Friday all the tables are full and the games are huge. Those players that got the money out are playing live and the action is higher than ever before. Yesterday the Rio had 80 cash tables and all low (1-2k)buy in events are well attended so for the moment the live players are benefiting from black Friday.

The Center Cannot Hold

Posted by Brandon Adams on Jun 8, 2011

In 1998’s Shut Up and Deal , Jesse May told you all you need to know about the poker world. My book, 2006’s Broke: A Poker Novel, was an afterword. In his June 1 blog, “Poker is going back to the Wolves”, Jesse said, “I looked around the room yesterday at six pm and it was nothing but lifers as far as the eye could see. Just a big group of all those with life sentences in poker and no other prospects and no contemplation that something else might come along if things go bad.”

As a Full Tilt pro, I have to contend with the fifth paragraph in Jesse’s blog:

“Many lifers showed up without patches, and their message was clear. I belong here, they said, you all know I do. Top drawer or case money, I’m a poker player first and last, in 2011 or 2054. One man, however, showed up wearing his patch and squeaking his high voice, and that was not cool. You’re supposed to leave your gang colors off at funerals, weddings, and when you’re behind on the rent. Anything else is just provocation, especially when there’s a satchel under your bed stuffed with sweatshop jeans made by 18-year old indentured grinders that you gave minimum wage. It was no wonder that tempers got raised.”

I think this is harsh. I expect to wear a Full Tilt patch during most of the Series. I’ll do this not because Full Tilt tells me to (indeed, Full Tilt sent out an email to US pros that leaves all US deals in an ambiguous standing) and not because I have a self-interest in doing so. Obviously it’s more convenient not to wear a patch on any given day, given the scorn and media interest one might receive, and certainly one doesn’t expect financial benefit from wearing a patch (my deal, for instance, only awards money if the patch is shown on TV, but one is not allowed to wear poker site logos on feature tables this year).

I’ll wear a patch more out of loyalty, because I know and like the Full Tilt guys, and I trust them to do the right thing. Along with everyone else in poker, I’m devastated by the fact that the poker world is being ripped apart, and I’m horrified by the fact that Full Tilt hasn’t been able to meet its obligations in the short-term.

I’ll also be wearing a Full Tilt patch out of fear. Like Jesse, I also see poker going back to the wolves, but, unlike him, I view this as the worst thing imaginable. Many of the best people I’ve come across in poker are associated with Full Tilt, and, in my mind, rightly or wrongly, if they fail to do the right thing and Full Tilt goes down, then poker will have gone fully back to the wolves.

Why the fear? Shut Up and Deal is the best poker novel because Jesse May recognizes, without coming out and saying as much, that a world ruled by addiction and self-delusion can never look anything like the normal world and will never play by its rules. This is a point missed by most posts in the blogosphere, the twittersphere, and the poker forums.
Poker is a lifestyle masquerading as a career path. And as lifestyles go, it’s not a particularly healthy or sustainable one (But is a lot of fun). The online poker sites sort of successfully sold the idea of poker as a career path (obviously it was in their interest to do so), and now many people look at poker as almost like a normal industry, something that with a little effort they will be able to understand and comment on.

The thing is: poker doesn’t work that way. After being around poker for a very long time, I can tell you that it’s all shadows, blue pills, and unpealed layers. You always think you understand, but you don’t.

My fear is simply that, if Full Tilt can’t hold it together, poker will enter a dark phase.
It’s notable that since Moneymaker’s win in 2003 and the launch of the golden age of poker, there have been relatively few instances of violence in the poker world. Arguably, this has a lot to do with the legitimacy brought to the poker world by the major sites, and with the flood of money that the sites channeled from the outskirts of the poker world to the center.

To me, the threat of violence in gambling is the reason that we need regulation to hit the poker space as soon as possible. People have lost sight of the reasons why violence and gambling are natural bedfellows. First, gamblers are often sick and tend to run up debts. Since these debts are hard or impossible to collect using normal channels, force is often used. The gambling world tends to evolve over time towards people who use force (or are friendly with people who use force), for the simple reason that those are the people who get paid first. At present, many online players are entering the live world — I am sure they will win millions, but at the end they will have little hard coin and a lot of IOUs. Second, cheating and other angling is rampant in gambling, and the only protection is the threat of force. Third, because gambling is a cash economy that intersects with other, more dangerous cash economies, gamblers not protected by the threat of violence are open targets for extortion and theft.

The poker world rightly praises Pokerstars for its extreme efficiency in funding US withdrawals. I’ll admit that Pokerstars is, in a certain way of looking at the world, the perfectly run poker organization. It’s the most efficient and ruthless rake gathering machine ever created. I can admire that, I guess, but my heart is with Full Tilt. They’ve made amateurish mistakes at times, but Full Tilt is an organization run by poker players, with sympathy for the wellbeing of the overall poker community.
If Full Tilt does not pay back its players in the near term, they are worthy of scorn — we cannot excuse that. But I believe that they deserve just a little more patience in their efforts to overcome management mistakes and a government seizure.

Brandon

While I think it is a well written and thoughtful article I cannot agree with all that Brandon has said.

I cannot write is fluently as Jesse or Brandon but here are my thoughts.

Jesse is not being harsh when the reality is that the lack of financial responsibility lies with a few organisations who new exactly what they were doing and made hay while the sun shone. There can be no excuse for the way they have handled other people’s money. Full tilt is a leading brand and as such should have held that responsibility in such a way that it led the poker industry to create more professional image and structure. The idea that Pokerstars is the most efficient poker site is ridiculous, its facing $3 billion on fines how is that efficient, it simply managed its cash flow better than Tilt but it has some serious challenges going forward


All players are not addicts or violent gamblers, I would argue that most are looking for a game, a chance to win and in many ways prove that they are part of something that they enjoy. Sure the lifers will always be there but they are not the ones who are responsible for today’s situation. Also the majority of players are small stakes people who aspire to play in something bigger but don’t overstretch there lifestyle.

Its time to move the industry forward not back, for professional organisations to bring in structure and a series of live events that can attract non gaming sponsors. Golf was an “addiction” back in the 50s (for many it still is) and with smart marketing and a central independent organisation it evolved into a recognised profession. It would be easy to say what has happened is the end, that poker will slowly die out if the US doesn’t go legal and players accounts are not settled. I believe however that as a result of the actions in the US a line is now drawn and regulation will happen quicker than most think. IGT didn’t buy Entraction for its international business; Betfair and bwin haven’t opened offices in the west coast because poker is ending in the US. Stop focusing on those that decided to break the law and instead consider those that have waited and planned patiently, they may surprise you.


I to have been around poker for many years, I first went to the WSOP in 1992 and have been every year since. I have watched as players and sites have evolved beyond all recognition. Today my company looks after several poker tours and countless networks and sites; we manage player support and registration.  We handle millions in multiple currencies and guarantee registrations and funds returned if you are a no show, all of this is handled in secure client accounts so that the player’s money is protected in the bank and not used as our money. If we can do this why couldn’t the US facing sites? We are not as obvious as many groups but we have been around longer than many and we believe that poker is something more than

“ all shadows, blue pills, and unpealed layers. You always think you understand, but you don’t.”

I am sure that there are many players that do live in dark places, that could be said for many professions and I am sure we can all think of several. I may have more faith in players than some as the majority I meet are decent people. Some are pro players grinding out a living; they seem happier than many I know outside of poker and are certainly well travelled. I also look after many qualifiers from on line sites who have never been abroad or at a major tournament before and they (apart from being overwhelmed sometimes) are thrilled at the opportunity to play against top players and be part of a WPT or WSOP event.

There are many new opportunities that will surface as a result of recent actions, I just hope the industry does a better job of regulating itself going forward than the world banks have. I for one will not tolerate violence at an event and will endeavour to provide the best that we can for players and sponsors alike. Watch what the other sites and networks do going forward not Tilt or Stars but the ones who have been waiting for a fairer playing field, the ones that pay there players and run efficient tours. Poker may be growing to a new phase not disappearing into the wilderness.

Sometimes it is easy to get caught up in the present and not to consider the future. The economy is a must bigger issue to poker than “black Friday” and the investment of the corporations is needed now more than ever. If I am correct (and I may be way off the mark) poker will be legalised state by state from 2012, A new major site or network will appear, there will be the formation of more festival style events in Europe were several competing brands will all hold tournaments close together and most of all non gaming brands will start to sponsor and bring much needed revenue to the players and tours alike…..maybe I am dreaming but then again I am not looking back but forward.


Dave

I thought a little bit of what you were saying sounded a bit .... odd.

Then you got to this


and that explained it, I didn't really bother reading on after that line.

I am sorry you think it was odd...and didnt read on.  I cant see what it explained, I simply believe that poker players deserve better than what they are getting at the moment.

Is your company currently in the process of buying a poker network?

Are you asking on a personal level or wearing your Pokerstars hat? Lol

I'm just asking a question, the answer to which may or may not clarify the motive for posting that Jon MW alluded to. It's certainly nothing to do with my work.

In a stunning announcement Poker Stars has withdrawn from the Australian market from August 1st. Devestating news.

Something super bad is gonna develop in Europe/England soon. Gotta really bad feeling

what like

http://www.casinogeezer.com/online-casino-news/uk-government-looks-to-restrict-overseas-online-gaming-operators.php

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=27069397&postcount=18

Not for the first time I'm glad my money is on Sky

xx

Nope we are not buying a network. We have owned sites in the past and are now totally independent and will stay so.

We are aiming to provide more services to the players who want to visit tournaments and will therefore work with all on line sites including Stars for who we will be registering players for there EPT events. As I eluded to, I believe poker is changing and the meetings I have had so far in Vegas only points to even more changes in the near future. Our next U/K event is the Man United tournament in August and anyone wishing to meet up and see what we do is welcome to come along. Over the coming weeks I am sure that several companies involved in the industry will be announcing new initiatives with regards to poker on both a local and international level.

Can you expand on this?

As best as I can

There are several organisations gearing up for a state by state legalisation of poker in the US, though I am sure there are wildly different views on this, many executives expect that once the recent actions are moved to the next phase in the coming months that at least four states will follow Washington and legalise gaming under local taxation rules, which sites will get the licenses is still far from certain and the details will vary but the fact that these conversations are happening is a good sign. That and the fact that the NFL has withdrawn its objection now adds to the speed of the resolution.

The recent events have also re ignited several poker rooms interest in marketing in Europe to compete with those sites that previously held an unfair advantage. Many tours are gearing up for more players and there will be several new ones on the calender before the end of the year which will create a more poker driven rather than site driven activity. I think (not certain on this ) that there will be more grouped festivals were several competing sites tournaments will be in the same city within days of each other giving the players more value.

There is a general acceptance that several sites will fail and some larger organisations will merge paving the way to a more professional live circuit that could attract sponsors. Once the WSOP is over there will be an impetus to attract many of the US players to Europe and to do that the tours will need to lead the way for the sites, though nothing is certain the thinking is most certainly in that direction.


Dave

Thanks for the prompt reply - very interesting.

From a somewhat speculative source, http://www.subjectpoker.com/2011/06/cereus-owes-players-54m-has-only-5m-6m/

Subject: Poker’s Scott Bell has learned that Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet’s total outstanding debt to players is $53.7 million, but their cash on hand is only between $5 million and $6 million.

These numbers came from a reliable source inside of AP management and have been corroborated by a different person inside a different department in the company. Our source, who wishes to remain anonymous, told us that $24.2 million of this liability is to US players. He explained that this number had been artificially lowered by US players systematically moving money to non-US accounts in an attempt to get their money off of the site sooner. He said that such attempts would not be successful.

The $5 million to $6 million figure, which is not exact, takes into account about $3 million in severance pay to Cereus’s Costa Rican employees.1 It does not include money that was frozen when some of Cereus’s bank accounts were seized by the United States Department of Justice on April 15th.2

This news certainly does not bode well for players who have money on Cereus. Since Black Friday, non-US players have been able to slowly cash out funds, in amounts up to $2,000. However, anecdotal evidence provided by a thread on the Two Plus Two Poker Forums in which players have been discussing the two sites suggests that withdrawals for non-US players have slowed down.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This story is based on the word of anonymous sources who did not provide us with ways to independently verify their claims. Though our principal source would certainly have intimate knowledge of such things, we are unable to guarantee that the information presented here is accurate. However, we believe this story is almost certainly true, and given its importance, we decided to publish it. Though we’ve known of this story for some time, we waited until we heard the information from another source before publishing.

Sounds pretty bad, though probably not surprisingly so.

Not sure I'd call it 'speculative' - looks like a pretty solidly produced piece of actual news, a rare commodity in the poker world. No real need for them to print the semi-disclaimer at the bottom.

I'm copying and pasting the line in bold, seems like a good default to have on everything I write from now on.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This story is based on the word of anonymous sources who did not provide us with ways to independently verify their claims. Though our principal source would certainly have intimate knowledge of such things, we are unable to guarantee that the information presented here is accurate. However, we believe this story is almost certainly true, and given its importance, we decided to publish it. Though we’ve known of this story for some time, we waited until we heard the information from another source before publishing.

Lol, it is the ultimate get-out!

Rich could have saved himself a lot of trouble when anon won the deepstack the other week with this piece of legislative genius

I have saved the paragraph, don't you worry.

Probably cost them thousands to get a draft from rob and steal it LLC of Delaware, lawyers to the poker industry

Well not really - all they're really doing here is explicitly stating what most news sources assume to be taken for granted, which is that they can't be 100% sure that what their respectable sources tell them is in fact true.

There's no real need to say this - they've got two separate sources telling them the same thing, so they can attribute the content to them and that's that. Obviously no, it's not certain that it's true - there could be some weird reason why they're both telling the same lies - but it's good enough. I don't know why they printed the disclaimer really - it just draws attention to and unnecessarily exaggerates the element of doubt.

If you don't allow this sort of reporting then you don't get very much actual news. Is it better to just see reports of official statements put out by Tilt/UB etc? I don't think so... The poker industry's obviously an extremely opaque one. There are plenty of reasons for that, but one is that basically all the poker media is built around poker advertising and affiliate schemes, which rather dissuades critical or investigative journalism into these multi-million/billion dollar companies. Meanwhile Reuters/Bloomberg et al have no interest as they're private companies. So good on these guys for at least trying to plug the gap.

I think it's good journalism for the reason that they have explicitly stated the disclaimer - I think it makes a change to the shoddy work most 'proper' journalists do when they state as fact things which are only probably true - and do the same with things which 'might' be true as well as stories which are just completely made up speculative.

Well yes, I think that's also a fair stance. Actually I wasn't criticising their use of it really, more just saying that they didn't really need it. Maybe they preferred to use the disclaimer on a story that stated the subject matter as fact and then attributed to sources, rather than simply printing, "UB only has $5m, according to senior sources", when you wouldn't need a disclaimer as you're only stating specifically what the source said, and you know 100% that it is true that they said that.

I think it's neither good nor bad journalism. It's something else entirely, and I don't mean that as a critcism. I think it's a good thing. It's a new approach to news reporting where everything is presented in a straight, transparent fashion rather than trying to find an 'angle' or guard your exclusives. It's more of an academic approach to news reporting.

When I was being taught news writing, there was a half joking saying that 'if two people say it, then it stands up'. I think what you're saying is spot on. They are simply taking established journalistic practice and making it more transparent. In the US they have already been forced to do this to an extent with sources as there were too many cases of people simply inventing quotes from made up 'sources'. You will usually read things like. 'This war was blah blah,' a senior staffer on the commission told this newspaper on the condition of anonymity.

Global egaming growth is set to slow to 4.4% this year, according to H2 Gambling Capital, the slowest annual growth the industry has seen since the gambling data business began tracking the sector in 1998.

H2 has, following the preliminary results season, revised its global egaming gross win forecasts for 2011 down to €23.76bn, from the €25bn and 10.2% year-on-year growth it projected at the start of this year.

The Manchester-based consultancy said the reason for the downgrade was due in part to the economic backdrop and slower-than-expected regulation, but in the main to the impact of Black Friday on the poker market and of the Japanese earthquake on the Japanese Racing Association, by far the largest interactive operator in the world.

H2 said this morning: “Black Friday (and subsequent actions) occurring in the US that have decimated the scale of the Internet poker industry in that market. At this stage we have calculated that the impact will equate to as much as €765m of lost market value this year and a further €100m loss next.” It added that it expected the JRA’s interactive business to be down approximately 13% year-on-year in 2011.

In brighter news for the sector, global egaming gross win excluding the US and Japan is projected to grow by 12% year-on-year in 2011. The forecasts include the expected launch of cash poker and casino in Italy in the middle of this year, and not regulated activity in Greece, Belgium and Spain expected by H2 to commence at some point in 2012.

Although Full Tilt Poker got into an agreement with the DOJ almost immediately after Black Friday to facilitate refund of US poker player deposits, they seem to have gotten into a financial mess that prevents it from processing payouts. Full Tilt Poker’s problem seems to be credit related. Although Full Tilt has credited millions of dollars to the gaming accounts of its US poker players, they have not yet received the funds credited. This has led to a $60 million deficit for Full Tilt although this does not seem to be the online poker site’s only problem.

The use of a payment option called e-check created this problem for Full Tilt Poker, which used to credit amounts immediately into the accounts of poker players who used e-checks to fund their accounts. This incredibly quick service used to delight US poker players no end. The truth is that e-checks are not instantaneous; they take several working days to clear, a fact that can annoy players who cannot wait to see their funds in their accounts. Full Tilt has been doing this from September last year to February this year. Players had already noticed the trend and started discussing it at blogs and forums. Although Full Tilt tried to rectify the error in March, it had already reached a deficit of $60 million.

Full Tilt Poker warned players that they would be receiving all the funds due to them by this March. Owing to the fact that some players cooperated with Full Tilt Poker completely, the online poker site was able to recover 70 percent of the deficit. But they might as well kiss 30 percent of it good-bye. This is because some players saw this as a great opportunity to eat their cake and have it too. They simply cleaned out their bank accounts before Full Tilt Poker could retrieve the funds due to them. As a result of this, Full Tilt Poker is in the red for nearly $18 million.

Some people in the online poker gaming community say that Full Tilt Poker got punished because it had become slack about processing deposits and withdrawals. The online poker site might have lost more than it claims it did. All this is disturbing for US poker players who had poker accounts at Full Tilt before the federal crackdown because the poker site could be delaying payments to US poker players for precisely this reason.

Source: Tight Poker

the Alderney Gambling Control Commission (AGCC) has suspended Full Tilt’s licences, requiring the poker room to suspend all operations from the jurisdiction with immediate effect.

The AGCC said in a statement this morning: “The decision to suspend these licenses follows a special investigation prompted by the indictments unsealed by US Attorney General’s Office in the Southern District of New York on 15th April 2011, during which grounds were found to indicate that these licensees and their business associates were operating contrary to Alderney legislation."

I just logged in with no problem.

Since their licence is now suspended/revoked are they now operating as some kind of "pirate" site?

http://www.egrmagazine.com/news/1673787/breaking-news-alderney-suspends-full-tiltsoperating-licence.thtml

Tilt have just paused all games.

Looks to be game over.

Servers now down - can't even load up software.

Website says 'Scheduled maintenence in progress'...

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsx2vdn7gpY  .

gg FT

Interesting, you'd think they'd just carry on though... Do you think they've had some connectivity tied to their licensing removed? Or do you think they thought that this would just see a run on funds and the end so they've taken what's left of the funds to a sunny country with no extradition treaties?

Its says in the comment section at the bottom that players carn't log on. Any blondes struggling to log on? At work so obv carn't try my self.

They would have servers based in Alderney (well Guernsey) that would have to be shut down I presume. But i would expect they have servers (and likely another licence) in Kahnwake (where they were licenced before Aldnerney) they could use instead.

I cannot connect
Their website says it is scheduled maintenance

I've had it trying for the last 5 minutes, just says trying again.

Tilt is down completely - updates in the Black Friday thread.

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=52905.msg1392688#msg1392688

GG tax dodging bastards.

Will be interesting to see how many players get their money back and how soon this will be.

Edit; Surely this shows how vulnerable the money people keep with sites like Full Tilt is? How many people will stay with FT if they switch their other servers on?

Yep down.

If anyone has updates on how to get our money back, then share it with us! :)

Greets

I guess the other option is they shut the servers down themselves to prevent a run until the situation develops a bit further. It does seem rather odd that it's taken them this long to find a breach though - especially given the rumours flying round (e.g. e-check deposits)

They don't have to 'prevent a run' - they're not like a bank where people can instantly take actual money out.

Switching off the servers was not their decision - it was ordered by Alderney.

http://www.gamblingcontrol.org/userfiles/file/Website%20Statement%20-%20FTP%20suspension%20290611.pdf

Buying tilt $ at 0.2/$ non us accounts only

From that doc I just linked to:


So looks like nothing will change until at least 26th July - Tilt will be down until then.

Yes but they will have servers elsewhere. Surely? Wouldn't any online business that depends on being 'always on'? Whether they want to take the business decision to run from a different location while having a licence suspended is another thing...

LOL at the location of the hearing.

Are they licensed (with servers) in other jurisdictions apart from Alderney?

gg FTP WSOP Main packages (or the winners of those)? 

Alderney Statement -

licensees must from today cease to:-
 Register new customers;
 Accept deposits from existing customers;
 Allow existing customers to withdraw funds that are held in their accounts; and
 Permit customers to participate in any form of poker game play or gambling transaction.

What are the implications of them breaching the suspension? Other than them losing their license?

They were previously licensed in Kahnawake, although are no longer listed on the Kahnwake site as a permit holder. They still have servers there though.

Nope.

would you go and play with them again if they dusted off the servers in Kahnwake, or would you just log on and take your money out?

Full Tilt only have themselves to blame for this. 

They have handled this whole situation very badly and we may have likely witnessed the quickest demise of a cash cow ever seen!

FYP

lol fair point.

www.fulltiltpoker.com seems to be down competely now.

This is terrible news for euros

Full tilt don't have monies to cover the deposits, they have admitted that. Losses will now be chopped with US players. Lederer been looking after the US customers it seems!

Odd, server has IP of 91.211.98.20 which has reverse dns of:
98-20.colo.sta.blacknight.ie

which sounds like a collocated server with these guys:

http://www.blacknight.com/

A tracert of the IP goes via London and then to Canada before failing at a server belonging to mohawk.ca - aka the Kahnawake Data Centre

yeah I wondered about this, no doubt FTP would rather look after those players who can still play legally but this could really fuck this up for that

Website is back up... just tracerting it now but assume it's in Kahnawake.

would be interesting to know from you guys


website back up?..snap withdraw or snap inaction?

Withdraw surely? Inaction would be the same as keeping your shares in Lehman brothers after Lehmanns collapsed but you could still flog them for a 24 hour period afterwards.

he Alderney Gambling Control Commission (AGCC) has issued a further statement in light of its decision to suspend the licence of Full Tilt Poker.
Andre Wilsenach, the Executive Director of the AGCC revealed, ‘The decision to suspend the eGambling licence was in the public interest and, because of the seriousness and urgency of the matter, it required that immediate action be taken ahead of the regulatory hearing.’


The AGCC also confirmed that a hearing has been set for Tuesday 26 July in London and until then, or until the Suspension Notices are cancelled, Full Tilt must cease to register new customers; accept deposits from existing customers; allow existing customers to withdraw funds that are held in their accounts; and permit customers to participate in any form of poker game play or gambling transaction.

Snap withdraw if you can, the client isn't back up though and probably won't be any time soon.

Or else?

snap withdraw, followed by panic buy petrol and bread

also lol that UB will possibly outlive FTP

keiththecamel

"While I am confident the money is safe, in the current climate it is surely unwise to leave significant % of your roll at any site right now"


Discuss

Keith is completely correct, and nothing to do with the current climate either. When you piece together recessions, UIGEAs, EPT Berlin robberies, numerous sites going under before and after black friday, hackers, key loggers, blatch, super users, and christ knows what else, anyone who thinks leaving more than they need on any one place other than a protected, interest giving, UK regulated bank account is crazy.

 

Stars are the nizzles i'm not withdrawing!

People treating any poker site as if it were a bank is pretty silly when you think about it.

From IoM licensing body

GSC Statement 9th May 2011

The Gambling Supervision Commission feels it would be useful to clarify the regulations relating to the protection of player money.
All Isle of Man licensees must separate their players’ deposits and winnings from the funds that the operator uses for conducting its business
This is a mandatory licensing requirement for Isle of Man online gambling operators.
The Commission can confirm that all of its current licence holders are complying with these requirements and any players who wish to withdraw money from their gambling accounts should be able to do so at any time subject to the checks required to comply with anti-money laundering, anti-terrorist financing and know-your-customer laws.
Further to the statement we made 21st April 2011 concerning PokerStars, the Commission can confirm that:
- PokerStars continues to demonstrate compliance with the above licence condition;
- PokerStars is currently offering withdrawals to any players who wish to withdraw their funds, including players in the USA to whom PokerStars does not currently offer real-money gaming.


Seem more than happy with Stars.

odds on me getting ftp series espana package?

@Tom_Dwan
Some pretty objective ppl who's opinions I respect are worried now that FT can't payout or find a buyer. Me too more I think about it

Wonder if durrr will stay true to his word.

took a while but the penny has finally dropped  then

what was his word good buddy.

that ^^^

Id be suprised if he does tbh.

When members are saying the site is back up, is that literally just the www.fulltiltpoker.com or is the software bk online??

He would pay back every cent he had earned from Tilt to players, if they didn't payout.

i aint sure he is that solvent is he. no wonder he has been sucking up to James Bord lately.

I cashed out $1.1k from FT 2 days ago, I got an email saying it had been approved. Do you think itll be clearing and money on its way? Or did I win a play money tournament?

I dont hold much hope :)

I'd write it off and celebrate with it if you get

Was thinking that... Big piss up if I do get it.

Crappppppppp. I haven't played any poker in a while, especially online, so haven't been aware of what was happening til I just tried to log on to tilt. Assuming I will just have to write it off.. shame it's the only site I was keeping money on.

Hope no one lost anything that will be too painful!

With it being approved, I reckon you got a chance it has already been sent to your bank.

This may be my one time... Its only £700, but thats almost a months wages lol. I just signed up to online banking (behind on the times ldo), and will keep checking

Keep all of the emails and anything else regarding the amount in your account and this cashout.  Worst comes to the worst you can make an action in the Alderney Small Claims Court.

AgentMarco Marco Valerio
Source: From inside FTP: site will "re-open" in "a few hours" and "operate without a license," remove Alderney logos, and change T&C.

and here's part 2 from the same source:

AgentMarco Marco Valerio
Source pt 2: Without a license, VISA, MC & other payment processors will back out. "NO banks will want to work with an unlicensed company."

I'll believe this when I see it. No licence will mean Visa and Mastercard won't work with them. I think Moneybookers have already told them to GTFO - how are people supposed to deposit?

Are they just hoping people with balances will grind them into rake?

DaveShoelace did you write that horrible scaremongering article about pokerstars that got swiftly changed?

?

Simple answer is yes.  Moneybookers ceased their relationship on a matter other than today's events.  Banks probably will not deal with them, Mastercard and Visa definitely won't.  A suspicious minded person might think their plan is for existing players to go 'oh well, I'm sure it'll be fine, I'll just play on here until they can get the cash outs sorted.'

An article appeared on a betfair site by "Dave Allan" that basically insuinuated stars was going to lose their licence as well and everyone should cash out of stars and blah de blah, very shortly after FTP went down today.  It was swiftly changed soon after with all references to stars removed, I heard stars flipped out about it (unsurprisingly).  I only made the link because the article used the same game over vid dave linked early in this thread, its just a guess which is why I asked.  It pissed me off because 1) Stars dont deserve that crap and 2) moderated

DaveShoelace works for Pokernews.

And Dave Allen is a Betfair marketing manager not a nom de plume

Nowt to do with me

aight mate sorry, I thought good chance it was because of the video and the dave link and writing etc, my bad

GIQ please, noone likes a big 'ed

We knew that - the story was about something that happened today, not 5 years ago...

proberly

Sick I wanna delete my original question but its been quoted so many times im fecked.

GL to any blonde who still had money on FTP...Nothing much I hope

was this-

The question that now arises is will the Isle of Man Gambling Commission feel able to renew the licence of Pokerstars given that Alderney's decision to revoke Full Tilt's licence was based on the events of April 15 and not on their inabilty to ringfence funds. It will be no surprise to see many players rushing to withdraw from Pokerstars in the light of today's decision.

Would mean moving their web server to Kahnawake made some sense though...

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.fulltiltpoker.com

yep

Subject: Poker has learned from several reliable sources of a rift in the relationship between Moneybookers and Full Tilt Poker. The dispute centers around FTP’s apparent selective processing of withdrawals to the e-wallet.

Since Black Friday, Full Tilt has been disabling Moneybookers withdrawals for players from various countries in a seemingly arbitrary pattern. This has been a significant financial burden for the payment processor.1 Sources close to the situation have told Subject: Poker that Moneybookers has been in regular communication with Full Tilt Poker over this topic since April 15th, but the two companies have reportedly been unable to reach a compromise. Moneybookers has reportedly threatened to stop doing business with the poker site if the problem is not resolved quickly.

Full Tilt has the ability to turn off Moneybookers withdrawals for each individual country at will. Numerous threads across the Two Plus Two Poker Forums confirm that some countries have indeed been sporadically unable to withdraw to Moneybookers. E-wallet withdrawals were quite fast before Black Friday, but since the April 15th indictments, some non-US players have been reporting delays up to several weeks.

Moneybookers, based in London, is one of the largest e-wallets in the world servicing more than 18 million customers. It is reportedly FTP’s largest payment processor for non-US customers.

And.....

It seems that FTP has been unable to resolve this dispute with Moneybookers. Players report receiving the following email from Moneybookers:

Dear [player],
As a Moneybookers customer, you already know you are the most important part of our business. We always make sure you receive the safest service.

For this reason we have stopped accepting deposits made to Full Tilt Poker.

There are extraordinary circumstances behind this situation which are beyond our control. We will not comment on these, just take appropriate action that protects our customers.

We have requested that the Moneybookers logo be removed from Full Tilt Poker, but cannot do any more to make sure it is not displayed. Moneybookers is no longer available from Full Tilt Poker, and you will receive an error message if you attempt to use our service there.

We want you to continue to enjoy your gaming with Moneybookers, and recommend you have a look at our gaming promotion page.

As we have stated, this is an extraordinary situation, and we will try to have all connected issues resolved as soon as possible.

Should you have any questions, please contact our customer support.

Best wishes,

Your Moneybookers Team


The full article, with numerous responses, is here.....

http://www.subjectpoker.com/2011/06/dispute-between-ftp-and-moneybookers/

http://www.pokernews.com/news/2011/06/breaking-news-full-tilt-poker-license-suspended-by-agcc-10629.htm

WP 

Regards

M

Reading between the lines I translate this as "Tilt already had problems with cash flow and getting money back to US based players and therefore decided to buy themselves a bit more time by, occasionally, turning off one of the taps that flowed to Non-US players"

Rob Peter to pay Paul etc.


Seems a perfectly legitimate question to ask IMO. If Stars flipped out and wanted it withdrawn I would probs tell them to GTFO.

Welcome to the Isle of Man Gambling Supervision Commission
GSC Statement 29th June 2011

The Isle of Man Gambling Supervision Commission wishes to make it clear that the licensing status of PokerStars in the Isle of Man remains unchanged following today's statement from the Gambling Control Commission in Alderney. Alderney is a separate jurisdiction from the Isle of Man and the operation in question is separate from PokerStars.

PokerStars continues to demonstrate compliance with its licence conditions in the Isle of Man. PokerStars continues to offer withdrawals to any players who wish to withdraw their funds, including players in the USA to whom PokerStars does not currently offer real-money gaming.

It gets uglier by the minute.

http://wickedchopspoker.com/full-tilt-poker-shut-down-alderney-suspends-license/

Did I miss something?  That doesn't add anything new from the first breaking news?

Shouldn't laugh, but...

Just LOL!!!

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3XEfcBQyy4

xx

I'm on catch-up here, Simon, I've been in bed for the last 12 hours! Things move so fast these days. What a bloody mess this all is.

Has anyone told dave shoelace about this yet?

It's due to be in his 2018 Press Release.

Standard, but welcome.
http://www.pokerstarsblog.com/2011/statement-from-pokerstars-083011.html

 rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao

What does that mean?  I think it is the worst constructed statement I've ever seen from a supervisory body.

Wat?

It's entirely clear.

even i understand what this means.

sigh - i love ftp

Should have a colon after '...cease to'.

then you did not have a big enough bankroll on there imo ;)

$500 :(

me too. hurry up and get rush poker stars

sorry to hear that. its cash you ben cheated out of tho. and the years of rake. wonder if flushy is allowed to give comment.

I think flushy will just send me the money.

He is a good lad.

6 weeks ago flushy was saying stars had handled this stuff far worse than ftp.

Just lol

Think the original had them in a bulleted list.

I blame Barry then, sloppy journalism.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=27355884&postcount=525

Wishful thinking!

The point of a communication of this kind is to clearly convey your message without any possibility of misunderstanding.  It is possible to interpret this statement as must - cease to register customers and accept deposits, (must) allow existing customers to withdraw, and withdrawal is what most people are concerned with.  It is only by reading the whole statement that it becomes apparent that this is a list of things that "must cease to" applies to (even though this still leads to an awkward implied "must cease to and..." at the end).

As I said above it's a bit of a bad copy pasta as the original was perfectly clear.

Scott as in Matusow?

If so, I wouldn't be holding my breath.

edit: Yeah it is Scott Matusow.

If there is one thing in the world that is guaranteed, if Scott Matusow says it, its wrong.

Whoever wrote that post has basically no idea about the way the US govt operate.  Just getting Ray Bitar out of the way will absolutely not get FTP off the hook.  The US will want a significant settlement and until they get it then FTP will have no presence in any legal US markets.

Summary from P5s

In breaking news, the Alderney Gambling Control Commission has suspended the gaming license belonging to Full Tilt Poker. The move essentially ground Full Tilt’s traffic to a complete halt, with PokerScout.com registering its cash game player count at zero as of Wednesday morning around 10:30am ET. A regulatory hearing has been scheduled for July 26th in London to address the situation.

What will happen from here remains to be seen. On TwoPlusTwo, rumors were circulating that Full Tilt Poker could reopen its doors in the near future without a gaming license. One poster quoted a source as saying, “From inside FTP: Site will ‘reopen’ in ‘a few hours’ and ‘operate without a license,’ remove Alderney logos, and change T&C.”

Full Tilt could also seek a license from the Canadian-based Kahnawake Gaming Commission.

The same poster added, however, that operating without a license could be a nightmare for payment processing: “Without a license, VISA, MC, and other payment processors will back out. No banks will want to work with an unlicensed company."

A source close to Full Tilt told PocketFives.com on Wednesday that company officials were “still working on” their next steps. In the interim, the “System Status” icon on Full Tilt’s home page simply reads, “Scheduled maintenance in progress. The system is currently down for maintenance. Please check back soon!”

A press release posted on the Alderney Gambling Control Commission’s website explained the decision to take action against Full Tilt: “The decision to suspend these licenses follows a special investigation prompted by the indictments unsealed by U.S. Attorney General’s Office in the Southern District of New York on 15 April 2011, during which grounds were found to indicate that these licensees and their business associates were operating contrary to Alderney legislation. The nature of the findings necessitated the taking of immediate action in the public interest.”

Full Tilt has not yet issued cashouts to U.S. players, although it reached an agreement with the U.S. Department of Justice to process refunds one week following the Black Friday indictments back on April 15th.

The suspension of Full Tilt’s license means that the world’s second largest online poker room cannot register new players, accept deposits, process withdrawals, or offer online poker. The statement from the Alderney agency fingers Vantage Limited, Oxalic Limited, Filco Limited, and Orinic Limited, “who collectively trade as Full Tilt Poker.”

Another poster on TwoPlusTwo pasted an e-mail he received from Moneybookers addressing the Full Tilt situation: “As a Moneybookers customer, you already know you are the most important part of our business. We always make sure you receive the safest service. For this reason, we have stopped accepting deposits made to Full Tilt Poker. There are extraordinary circumstances behind this situation that are beyond our control. We will not comment on these, just take appropriate action that protects our customers.”

Also surfacing on TwoPlusTwo was a rumor that a Full Tilt Poker employee purportedly identified June 29th as the date on which Full Tilt Poker would effectively be shut down. In a thread about Lock Poker pro Jose “Girah” Macedo, one TwoPlusTwo user wrote, “Just seen something really, really interesting in another thread. There was some guy who posted soon after Black Friday saying he was a FTP employee and said FTP was about to go down - and apparently even said it would be on 29th June when it would happen!”

A source close to Full Tilt Poker told PocketFives.com that an e-mail update is forthcoming.

Meanwhile, over on Twitter, Full Tilt pro Tom Dwan  has been fielding questions from concerned Full Tilt Poker players. Just before signing off for the night, Dwan Tweeted, “Just heard some rly good news that I'd love to trust, gonna go to sleep instead of making my head explode w/ various extrapolations.”

Dwan added, “Some pretty objective ppl whose opinions I respect are worried now that FT can't pay out or find a buyer. Me too more I think about it.”

Around 11:00am ET, Dwan explained, “I'll try to Tweet my take on the situation in a few hours when I wake up- which'll be more educated and hopefully contain more good news.”

We’ll keep you posted on the latest on Full Tilt Poker’s license suspension.

Reassuring email today from Boyle Poker:

"Have you been hearing about some “major” poker websites hitting the rocks recently? We’d like to assure all our valued customers that this is not, and never will be, the case with Boylepoker.com.

Boylepoker.com are licensed and regulated by Alderney Gambling Control Commission who set the highest standards of security and integrity with which their licensees must comply, guaranteeing that your funds are totally secure."

Well that's OK then!

FTP considering move to Kahnawake for gaming licence for none USA players

http://www.subjectpoker.com/2011/06/full-tilt-looks-kgc/

xx

doubt they reopen as they were before but under a new licence.  If they do everyone will just mass withdraw and it will be pointless.

Full Tilt Poker Scenarios

Pokeraddict
Yesterday at 03:10 PM

    As I type this Full Tilt Poker's software client is down. Players are panicking and rumors are running rampant in the online poker world. The Alderney Gambling Control Commission suspended Full Tilt Poker's license to operate their online poker room in Alderney. This was done ten weeks after Black Friday when Full Tilt Poker pulled out of the U.S. market. During those ten weeks U.S. players have not been paid. Players outside the U.S. have reported their own payout problems. In fact Moneybookers just dropped Full Tilt Poker as a client so Moneybookers is no longer available as a cashout or deposit option on Full Tilt Poker. This has put further pressure on Full Tilt.

    There are quite a few ways the Full Tilt Poker situation could play out. At this point it is all guesswork but with some scenarios are more likely than others.

    Reopening Under Another Licensing Jurisdiction

    To me the most likely scenario is Full Tilt Poker reopening under another gaming commission. The KGC seems to be the most likely. Full Tilt Poker once held a license there. It seems that getting a license there again could be the easiest and fastest way to reopen as a licensed online poker room. Another option would be to get licensed in Malta. This would be better for players in high tax EU countries as players in those countries would likely be unwilling to play on Full Tilt Poker if it meant having to pay taxes they could otherwise avoid. The downside of this is that they could be offline for a longer period of time trying to gain licensing approval. Full Tilt getting licensed in a legitimate licensing jurisdiction could be impossible considering Full Tilt is in default on what some have speculated is over $100 million to U.S. players.

    Reopen Without a License

    This would be the fastest way for Full Tilt Poker to reopen. It would come with several problems though. While players in the U.S. have played on unlicensed gambling sites typically players in the EU, Canada and Asia, have the luxury of playing online poker at licensed poker rooms. This could further hurt Full Tilt's reputation. I feel players would be unwilling to play on an unlicensed Full Tilt Poker. There could also be problems with payment processors. It will be harder to find reputable payment processors for an unlicensed gambling company. Processors that would be willing to work with Full Tilt would charge them more for their services.

    Full Tilt Poker could also have the problem with having to relocate their business. Not only is that expensive it would be difficult for many employees to move to another country, especially without notice. There is also the issue of reliable internet. There are few if any places in the world that Full Tilt could operate their poker room unlicensed where there is a reliable internet structure in place that could handle their volume.

    Merge With Another Online Poker Room

    Full Tilt Poker's market value just took quite a hit. This could be the opportunity for a well established online poker room to come in and save the day. The software Full Tilt owns is one of the best in the industry. They also own Rush Poker which could be a valuable asset to a competing online poker room. The brand name still has value as well. If a competing online poker room came in to bailout Full Tilt Poker the goodwill could be priceless. This scenario could leave U.S. players out in the cold though. If a non U.S. gaming company took over Full Tilt Poker U.S. players would be at the bottom of the list of people to get paid. There could also be legal problems with an online poker room buying Full Tilt without going through a bankruptcy process as there could still be legal issues in the U.S. for the company.

    Brick and Mortar Casino Takeover

    U.S. brick and mortar casinos are becoming more and more optimistic that there will be online poker in the U.S. soon. If a U.S. brick and mortar casino company took over Full Tilt Poker and bailed them out then there would be a lot of positives to come out of that. The casino company would walk into a turnkey online poker room that is the second largest online poker room in the world. If this company were able to get U.S. players paid they would add goodwill to their brand name. When the U.S. players that finally received their Full Tilt money visited Las Vegas the casino company that bailed them out would likely be their first choice for hotel and casino play. When online poker became regulated the casino company would already have a strong brand name in the U.S. which would give them a big edge over competing casino companies.

    A brick and mortar company in the U.S. would likely have to receive approval from the Department of Justice to make this purchase. This would shield them from the liability Full Tilt Poker faces in the U.S. including the fine of up to $1 billion. I have to wonder if the DOJ would approve a U.S. company paying off Full Tilt without the DOJ getting their money first.

    Wait for Alderney Regulatory Hearing

    Full Tilt might wait until the regulatory hearing on July 26 to see if they can get reinstated. By doing this their software would be offline for a month. This would be devastating to their reputation. Being closed a month could mean the same to players as being completely out of business. It would seem likely the regulatory hearing would bring the same result too, Full Tilt could wait a month to find out they lost their license. There would seem to be little motivation for Alderney to change their mind. If Full Tilt is not operating then U.S. players would still not be paid and players outside the U.S. would not be paid either since their license suspension does not allow for that.

    Full Tilt Could Close

    While I feel this is not likely it is possible Full Tilt could be under so much red ink that there is no way out. If the value of Full Tilt's software and patents are worth less than the balances owed to players then Full Tilt would be technically bankrupt. I doubt that is the case but only the people who have first hand knowledge of Full Tilt's book know for sure.

    Other Issues Related to License Suspension

    Timing of the Suspension

    The timing of the license suspension leaves me to wonder what happened to cause this. There is no doubt other companies licensed in Alderney had to be unhappy with sharing a licensing jurisdiction with a company that had allegedly been involved in bank fraud where the owners were in serious legal trouble. Those operators were also sharing a licensing jurisdiction with a company that could not pay U.S. players and were having problems paying players outside the U.S. It is certainly possible pressure from other licensed companies forced Alderney's hand.

    Alderney has to know that this has hurt all player's chances of getting paid. I have to think that Alderney has been hoping that Full Tilt could figure out a way out of the hole they were in. Considering this situation could reflect bad on Alderney I feel they wanted to give Full Tilt every chance to make payments to players. Both Phil Ivey and Jack Binion had visited Full Tilt's office in Ireland recently. Maybe Alderney wanted to see if anything would come out of those talks. The license suspension has hurt Full Tilt's value and likely affects its ability to receive investment money from venture capitalists.

    If talks were close and Alderney jumped the gun then that could be irresponsible. In my opinion Alderney likely gave Full Tilt every chance to comply and get players paid. Alderney must feel that the situation has become hopeless and that this was the only solution to preserve their own reputation.

    Full Tilt Backup Plan

    Full Tilt Poker likely knew this was coming. Alderney had to be watching this situation closely. I feel it is safe to assume Full Tilt had received a warning from Alderney and knew at some point their license would be suspended if they did not find a resolution. Maybe Full Tilt thought they could get the money needed to continue to operate and get U.S. players paid. Even if they thought that there should have been a backup plan. Hopefully Full Tilt is working right now on that backup plan so they can get back online quickly.

    Closing Thoughts

    After two and a half months it is obvious that there are some serious liquidity issues at Full Tilt. I do not believe this is the nail in the coffin for them though. Full Tilt can save their brand and if not there is still a lot of value in their software and patents including Rush Poker. I feel the goal is to preserve Full Tilt and keep the structure as close as possible as it is today. Selling out is likely a last resort but one that I am sure is being considered more and more with every passing day

Quick, and possibly silly, question but;

What has FT done with all the players money that they hold? How come they can't pay everybody back?

In some cases they never had it and there are rumours they spent some of the rest on marketing etc. Fractional Reserve poker, it's great!

So, in effect, Lederer is like Madoff?

The problem is that, as far as I know, full tilt did not segregate the players' funds into a client account.  The impact of this is if FT were to go bust, then the punters would become general creditors as far as an administrator is concerned, and thus will get the same recovery rate as all the other creditors.  The recovery rate can vary between 0% and 100% depending on what has been going on behind the scenes.  A potential factor, for example, which could reduce the recovery rate would be if the IRS successfully brought a claim against FT for unpaid tax (I don't know whether this is in the pipeline or not).  If this was the case effectively the punters assets would get diluted with the need to also pay the IRS.  Similarly if FT have a large outstanding trade creditor (eg advertising) this would have the same impact.

In addition this process can take years.  I should point out this is what happens in the UK, so US law might well be different, in which case the above is as useful as a chocolate fireguard.

Got my transaction through today. Took 3 days? Must be because they have nothing else to do lol.

GIQ etc, i know. Just pleased x)

well done, run better imo

ive got 2 cashouts that were processing before this shit happened.

were yours approved before they went down, or were they still processing?

Was yours for a small amount? mine is for quite a lot.. u think this would make any difference?

He said earlier in the thread that his had been approved before they went down.

bla, ok so it wouldnt have even been Full tilt dealing with it.

so not really that realtive

At the time, I had no clue who dealt with it or what the process was. It was approved the day before the shutdown. It was for a relatively small amount but still almost a months wages lol

No not really, firstly how much Lederer has been aware/cause of this mess is unknown. He is not the CEO (Ray Bitar is) and that is why he is hasn't been arrested by the US authorities. Also this isn't really a Ponzi scheme imo, more total mis management, I think the majority of people involved with Tilt had good intentions just totally incompetent.

(http://i.imgur.com/7CQEc.jpg)

I find it very difficult to believe that Lederer and the other players involved with Full Tilt were not aware of the situation, particularly the fact that players accounts were not segregated.  Also, they had to question where is the money coming from for the marketing expenses, FT Pros and the millions they were pocketing.  I was amazed that people continued to play on FT after it was made known that they spent the money that should have been in the players accounts.  Also, I question how can people still think that people like Lederer had good intentions but he was simply incompetent.

Hmmm from what I've heard I'm not sure I'd say they all had good intentions longy.

Howard and co did lots of things they shouldn't have.

Eli elezra joked on tv about how many accounts he had. You could see from howard's face that he knew.

Patrik antonius also had several accounts. Doubt he was the only person within the crew that knew about it.

Benyamine was on the fiddle with a ftp member of staff too.

The selling of 100% accts isn't on either.

these things just don't happen on other sites. ftp are a disgrace. I'm gutted I played so much there and gave the crooked fks my custom.

Cos, how do you know they don't?

Marcro, not many in the community questioned where FTP's marketing money was coming from so it doesn't seem that obvious. Are you talking about a situation prior to Black Friday where it was known that FTP had spent player's money?

I am questioning Lederer having good intentions.  As far as I know, he was pretty hands on in the running of the company and he would have access to their financial statements.  The secrecy about who were the owners, etc. also should have rung some alarm bells.

i'd me a lot more suprised to find that they dont, than i would to find that they do.

Yeah you are probably right, though 2 of your points are relying on Nick Rainey's version of the truth.

Also saying this doesn't happen on sites, I would be very careful with that statement. You do represent a network which openly allows bots!

I guess the truth will come out eventually, I don't think either would surprise me.

Was there a situation where it was known that FTP had spent players money before Black Friday? I only ask as I hadn't heard of one and I wouldn't of played there if I had.

"find it very difficult to believe that Lederer and the other players involved with Full Tilt were not aware of the situation, particularly the fact that players accounts were not segregated."

To be fair they were open about this in the terms and conditions.  But I guess we all just ticked the box all those years ago when signing up without reading it and jumped straight into a game.

Not the case, they changed them recently and infact there is a post on 2+2 by FTPDoug from 2008 which SPECIFICALLY states "with authority" player deposits are seperate and protected from other FTP money.

That doesn't mean he wasn't lying.

I'm trying to find any mention of them in the internet archive, but currently can't seem to (either way)

Yeah your right about the lying, but it does mean they were not open and infact actively trying to pull the wool over players eyes

ill try find the link

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=5183643&postcount=59

and a few posts below it

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=5184086&postcount=62

" I can say with authority, though, that we do not mix deposits with operational expenses"

Current T & Cs read:

"Customer funds are not segregated from company funds, but it is the intention of Filco Ltd to meet its liabilities as they fall due."

Google Cache from last week has no mention of this...

Those t and cs were recently changed and not only that they read differently depending what coutry you ip address is in

Never mind, it seems the actual T&Cs aren't indexed by google only the play money terms.

The key is that there is a difference between what he says below, and if the funds are segregated (i.e. legally client money)

"Players' funds at Full Tilt Poker are kept in several deposit accounts throughout the world, all of which are separate and distinct from our operating accounts."

They put the money in seperate accounts all they like, but if it is still not "client money" then if they go bust the money is not segregated and the players will become general creditors.

But I do agree with you that his comments give the impression that the funds are indeed segregated.

Only the rakeback account selling relies on Nick Rainey. The rest of the stuff I'd heard from several sources.

Yeh I defo worded that badly about other sites. I was mostly trying to draw a comparison with stars and wrote without thinking.

Can an insolvent business hold a patent?

Why doesn't one of the shit euro sites by the tilt software and reskin it?

I've never understood why no-one's reused the old Tribeca or Paradise software.  Both were the shizzles compared to Boss, iPoker, etc.

Are blondepoker.com considering taking over FTP?

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/promotions/reload-bonus/

Hehe, never miss a trick!

I haven't been following this story much but now that the big fat honey monster Lederer has stolen all my moneezzz I've kinda become suddenly interested.

The point could have been made already but I don't see how there's much danger of Tilt going bust?? Their software is the best around and importantly they own Rush Poker. Those two things together with the brand value must be worth in excess of whatever outgoings they are responsible for. I know the hearing is set for July 26th but I can't imagine Tilt will want to be closed for 1 month especially because Alderney aren't going to re-issue the license at that point anyway. The value and rep of the business surely plummets in that time? I imagine every day is going to be used to pursuit whatever back-up plan Tilt had. They must have expected it or at least feared it. Getting a licence elsewhere, opening up unlicensed, maybe merging with another site have all got to be more viable options than busto. In the meantime where's my dollar Honey Monsterrrrrr??

Do they own Rush Poker or did they just license it?

Invented by these guys - http://www.holdemonepoker.com/index.php

Rush Poker patent application (http://www.google.com/patents?id=xh2iAAAAEBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=US2007/0155460&hl=en&ei=aewMTvOnONS68gO4zdijDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA)

Kahnawake confirms Full Tilt has a secondary licence with them, and that they are reviewing it in light of Alderney's actions.

-----
(MOHAWK TERRITORY OF KAHNAWAKE – June 30, 2011) – Since July, 2010, Kolyma Corporation A.V.V. (“Kolyma”), carrying on business as Full Tilt Poker, has held a Secondary Client Provider Authorization, issued by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission (the “KGC”).

The KGC issues a Secondary CPA only in cases where an operator holds a valid license issued by a primary jurisdiction and has its head office and focus of operations in that primary jurisdiction.

The KGC is aware that the Alderney Gambling Control Commission (“AGCC”), has recently issued Suspension Notices against several companies collectively operating as Full Tilt Poker.

In view of these recent actions, the KGC is reviewing all available information to determine whether the Secondary CPA presently held by Kolyma will be continued. A further announcement will be made shortly.

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http://www.subjectpoker.com/2011/06/kgc-statement-ft/

If KGC suspend/revoke FTP license, they must be in the worst kind of trouble. Pretty sure you could have killing babies as your primary goal and still get KGC to license you if you pay the fee.

Maybe that is the issue :dontask:

Think the value of software is overvalued in most peoples minds.  Unless you are going to go into the licensing business (and that is pretty saturated atm).  I would be surprised if the software in itself is worth more than $10m.  Rush certainly has value but I would be amazed if anyone was going to spend much money on anything poker related in the current climate.  I was involved in the sport betting market when the US passed the UIGEA and it was amazing how quickly bankers, investors, brokers etc who wanted to buy you dinner every night of the week before the clampdown now wouldn't even return your calls.

I know I won't be popular for saying this but i feel a bit sorry for Lederer and Ferguson.  The big mistakes were not made by them and yet this is going to impact on their lives so much more than it will on Bitar etc.  Presumably he will just disappear and enjoy the money he has made and whilst they have made money they are villified in the circles that they once were feted in.  I would imagine they would have lost 95% of their friends and can't really go back to what they did before yet it is possible they had no idea the complete state of the finances and even if they did it was only in this, the most catostrophic of circumstances, that it could end up like this.

It might be that the rights to the software are owned by a different company than the one that owes everyone money.

I can pretty much gaurantee that any big motion that went through full tilt would have been passed or approved by Howard.

Press release from LA Times:-

Full Tilt to be sold to European investors

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-online-poker-20110701,0,6054543.story

xx

damn you got there ahead of me as the first person to break the news :(

Looks interesting this.

I always thought that with rebranding and repayment to the tilt players that were owed that the playerbase will still play there and possibly even grow in Europe. However, this does mean a name change and trying to create as much distance as possible away from the farce that this was.

Hopefully these guys can create something reputable and really challenge pokerstars, but this is all very early and this report might even be crap in itself. I am just excited is all.

I don't have a lot of money locked up in full tilt [ ]

This link has just become available

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-online-poker-20110701,0,6054543.story

I hope this comes good.

[/quote]

I've never understood why no-one's reused the old Tribeca or Paradise software.  Both were the shizzles compared to Boss, iPoker, etc.
[/quote]

The agreement with tribeca when playtech bought them out was the software would be destroyed and never reused again.  Not only that but there was a major security hole found apparently in it, remember the day everyone had their password changed on some skins?

I know what you mean tho, tribeca play interface was extremely good and I would rather they had used it as well.

Not sure on the details with the paradise software.  Presumably sporting bet own it.  I also would like to order drinks and smoke at the table again, and explode when i get kod out a tournament....

It would be interesting to see who they were, one of the options I thought was possible was that a private equity firm could buy Full Tilt. Some of them easily have deep enough pockets to buy it, ride out the storm then sell it on to a US based casino for example. I wouldn't have thought that was likely until after the current legislation to try and legalise online poker in the US was clarified though.

It certainly sounds good for FTP players, fingers crossed for you guys.  Some places are saying its a "European investment group".  Quadjacks said it was binion, Calvin Ayre said it was BWIN.PARTY.  Lol.  Cliffs: nobody knows who it is yet but its very likely been sold.

from a poster at 2+2

doyle and durrr saying it's not a done deal yet via twitter. Calvin Ayre saying the buyers walked away after getting their licensed suspended.

Why would they buy a company that is mired in PR shit, has loads of legal issues and which has loads of debt unless they can buy it for absolute pennies?

That can be all be made to go away with a change of ownership and a rebranding - leaving someone with a massive player database and the best poker software at the time that the US will open up to online poker again.

Would they even need to re-brand?

If they could pay back US players and segregate funds I think they might be ok.

Of course they might think it cheaper to re-brand, but would it really work?

Having said that people still played at UB etc.

Deuces just said its a sale of the "good" stuff only.  Not selling the FTP brand or taking on the name/debts, just buying the software etc.  Deuces previously predicted FTP didnt have enough money to pay players when black friday struck, and that june 29th would be the day FTP died about a month before that date.  He claims to be an ex employee of FTP with access to insider information.  He also said quite a bit of wrong stuff. Make of it what you will

Sounds like all players are pretty much screwed then?

Deuces is just some guy on the internet who got lucky guessing a date (FTP having spent at least some of the player's money was pretty much suspected for a long time within the industry).

He's guessing again and getting off on the 2+2tards lauding him as a god.

I agree hes just pretty much guessing and you can only take a little bit from his posts if anything, but he was spot on about june 29th cant argue against that

reworking of a classic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GnLrpdAH7Y

Dueces didn't get anything right.  His prediction was FT would default on payments to U.S. players and cease trading shortly afterwards.  This hasn't happened.  It's like a fortune teller telling you a date on which you will die and on that day someone steals your car and your house burns down.  It's a crap day but you're still alive and the prediction didn't mean jack.

Looks like Paddypower have got Full Tilt...

http://www.paddypowerpoker.com/?LANG=en&AFF_ID=6140&ACD=&ef_id=&btag=

 :D :D

lol 10k reload bonus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8IGtS_uglg&NR=1

I've kinda missed all this Black Friday stuff, have I lost all the money I had on FT?

Good chance of that, yes.

Bugger

Nope....

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/pocket-kings-to-be-sold-in-euro100m-rescue-2811526.html

yeah right,
So you reckon the new owners can afford a massive run by all Non-US players as well?

LOL very good  ;D

French online gambling regulator ARJEL, yesterday suspended Full Tilt’s French license and shut down its .fr site.

According to the ruling Full Tilt was given notice to prove it had sufficient funds to pay players in France but was unable to do so.

This latest ruling is another blow to Full Tilt, which saw its global operation shut down last week when the Alderney Gambling Control Commission.

Analyst Daniel Stewart & Co, said, "It is still unclear as how long the suspension would be implemented but clearly French citizens would no longer be able to play on Tilt’s dot.fr site following the suspension.

“In our view the latest developments (Alderney & France) will have done irreparable damage to the beleaguered poker operator, and we expect further migration to the likes of Stars, BPTY [bwin.party], 888 and PTEC [Playtech] to follow”

and http://www.osga.com/artman/publish/article_9259.shtml

WickedChops Poker:

Hearing some interesting Full Tilt Poker news from our across the pond sources.

While we’re waiting on full confirmation, the sources are solid and both points seem inevitable, so here’s what we’re hearing.

:: Ray Bitar is out. Word is that on Sunday Ray Bitar was voted out as CEO of Full Tilt. This shouldn’t come as a shocker as we’d imagine any potential investor (i.e. the Ivey White KnightTM group) doesn’t want to buy a company and have someone indicted by the United States government running it, but from what we’re hearing, it’s happened and he’s out. Backing the tip up, we’ve spoken to Tilt employees who say there has been no direct communication from Bitar since at least Sunday (although to be fair, there hasn’t been a ton before that either).

:: AGCC to unsuspend license. Some Tilt employees are being told that Alderney will unsuspend the company’s gaming license by the weekend, possibly as early as Friday. While Tilt and its prospective buyer are in discussions with the AGCC, it still seems early (to us, at least) to unsuspend the license. However, from what we hear, Tilt is preparing for it and has already moved its DNS back to Alderney.

Can't to see what happens when clever people try to get all their money out...(probably failing to do so because Tilt don't have it.)..or when others say "F it, it'll all be fine I'll just leave it in"

Think the clever (non us) people had at most a bowl on there anyway.

yeah but ill still be insta drawing on my bowl as soon as I get chance as will most others!

Bank is gonna see a run, no point re-opening if they cant cover Euro players deposits

all them bowls that are in limbo could probably feed china for a day.

That's what I'm thinking. Hoping everyone gets their bowl back but I doubt it'll be soon.

FTP Agreed to Exclusive Negotiations
July 10, 2011 - 7:43 PM EDT
By Noah Stephens-Davidowitz

Full Tilt Poker has entered into an exclusive bargaining agreement with a prospective European investor.

The agreement, reached on June 30th, requires Full Tilt to stop negotiations with other prospective investors for at least three weeks while the primary suitor conducts due diligence investigations and negotiates with the poker site’s executives. Due diligence presumably poses a significant hurdle in this case because Full Tilt is an opaque entity with a complex corporate structure, an indicted executive, a civil complaint against it from the United States Department of Justice’s, and public troubles with regulators in Alderney, France, and the Kahnawake Mohawk Territory. Subject: Poker has confirmed from numerous sources that the US DOJ, the Alderney Gambling Control Commission, and the French regulatory authority ARJEL are all actively communicating with both Full Tilt and the prospective investor.

A reliable source who spoke on the condition of strict anonymity said that Full Tilt’s primary request is enough money to repay players and to cover a potential settlement of the United States Department of Justice’s civil complaint against the poker site.1 Since Full Tilt agreed to this exclusive agreement in spite of the presence of other suitors, the poker site’s executives presumably believe that the primary investor is likely to meet these terms.

This exclusivity agreement is the same agreement reported by the Los Angeles Times, which was widely misinterpreted as a finished agreement to sell some of the company.2 Subject: Poker wishes to stress that no such deal has been finalized, and to our knowledge, Full Tilt has not yet raised any capital from any investors. The actual deal simply involves exclusive negotiations, though it may lead to a sale in the future.

The prospective investor was introduced to Full Tilt executives in mid May by Phil Ivey, a Team Full Tilt member and a partial owner of the poker site. Shortly afterwards, on May 31st, Ivey released a public statement complaining about the fact that players had not been paid and filed a civil complaint against Tiltware, one of the companies behind Full Tilt Poker. Full Tilt responded quickly with a remarkably angry public reply claiming that Mr. Ivey’s lawsuit was hurting negotiations with prospective investors. Ivey withdrew his lawsuit on June 30th, the same day that the exclusivity agreement was signed. Subject: Poker has heard conflicting reports about how Ivey’s public feud with the poker site has influenced negotiations.

Full Tilt Poker has been unable to repay its US players since the US Department of Justice indicted its principals and filed suit against some of the many companies behind the poker site on April 15th. It has recently had troubles repaying non-US players as well. On June 29th, Full Tilt’s main regulator, the Alderney Gambling Control Commission, suspended the site’s licenses. Subject: Poker has reported throughout on the company’s largely secret attempts to raise capital in order to repay players, and we will continue to investigate and report on what we learn.
Footnotes

   1. Our source said that the Department of Justice has already outlined the terms of a potential civil settlement with Full Tilt Poker. However, Subject: Poker is unable to verify this claim, and this is the first that we’ve heard of such advanced negotiations with the DOJ. ↩
   2. Subject: Poker regrets publishing an article announcing the LA Times report and thus contributing to the misunderstanding. ↩

In response to a comment

Quote from: DungBeetle on Today at 10:24:55 AM
Is Dempsey the only man still wearing Full Tilt patches?   You'd be more welcome playing in a 3 ft squared swastika in the current climate?

tikay responded:


No, but he's in a minority.

I've been delving into this, & have asked 8 or 10 Red Pros or FT sponsored (as were?....) players their views. So many different, & individual specific replies. The only commonality is that none of them seem to know anything.

Might just blog the feedback today, though, you'll understand, I'm sure, it'll have to quote "anon" sources, as most of them did not want their views "on record", the convos were officially deemed "off record", on the understanding only that I would not quote names.

I'm fascinated by the terribly awkward spot they are in. It's not quite as simple as outsiders might think. And no, I 100% do NOT have a flag to fly for, or against, Tilt. I just find the whole situation bizarre, & I'm incredulous that it got to this, &, really, somehow, the great & good of poker seem to have just shrugged their shoulders & moved on.

My real angle is that many of these players are friends of mine from down the years. "yesterday" they were fine chaps, today some of them are being villified. But they are the same people now, as then, & they knew nothing of what was going off.

The other jaw-dropper is the "Crisis Management PR" - or total lack of it. In Tilt's spot, any line other than "OK guys, here's where we are, heres the situation" is sub-optimal. Communication is all in such a situation.

It's just the most astonishing story EVER in Online poker, but it seems to drop off the front page amazingly quickly. A couple of months ago, they were the world's 2nd biggest Room.

I got some serious abuse somewhere because I interviewed Flushy, wearing a Tilt badge, but the guy completely misread the whole piece, & jumped to all manner of incorrect assumptions, so I eventually gave up trying to reason with him. Fact is, Flushy is the same guy now as he was before all this went off, & he knows nothing of what happened, or why.

I think the thing is  scandal & a disgrace, absolutely, but having taken the time & trouble to listen to Flushy's take on it, I see no reason why I should suddenly hold a different view on him. I think exactly the same of him now as I did before, (whatever that was...) & I see no need to apologise for that.

Will Flushy come on here & explain his position? I very much doubt that! He wants to preserve his position for if & when Tilt re-open, & I'm sure most in his position would do the same, or at least understand his line.

I do know one thing - Flushy, as to his personal financial ethics, is squeaky clean, & I don't think a soul, anywhere, could suggest otherwise.

All very difficult.

BIG NEWS!

THERE IS HOPE FOR FULL TILT


On the 12 April 2011 I played my last MTT on full tilt

Today, more than 3 months later





























I RECIEVED MY I KNOCKED OUT A FULL TILT PRO T-SHIRT

they are back - im telling you!

lol. Guy you crack me up.

Does it say "And as punishment they tookz all my moniez!" on the back?

haha - probs!

I havent opened it from its wrapper - i figure it could be worth a small fortune as the last ever FT tshirt issued! - i wonder if sharkscope will add any monies generated to my curve, or maybe as its more of a "live cash" if i could get it added to my HMDB

2 arrived for me two days ago.

anyone heard anything about Tilt?

Last statemet I read was from 08-07 and then it was said "We expect a take-over to be completed in 2 weeks time". (http://www.poker.org/news/full-tilt-attorney-confirms-talks-of-takeover-deal-13598/) guessing that that'll run over a bit?

One Irish-based Online Room is offering a market on whether FT will resume trading on Tuesday, after the AGCC hearing.

Phil Gordon has got out of it http://www.quadjacks.com/2011/07/21/phil-gordon-full-team-pro-obtains-dismissal-from-lawsuit-quadjacks-poker-news/

Ivey spotted at an airport, rumoured to be going to the hearing.

Sir David of Shoelace will be at the hearing so I hear

And this just in http://www.egrmagazine.com/news/1680932/ftp-bidder-looks-to-buy-uk-and-irish-onlyassets.thtml