Vegas & The Aftermath - Diary

[TightEnd]

he does, I've played against him doing it

[boldie]

It's weird how standard 2p2 mantra is short stacks in cash games have an advantage, the last two 2p2 NL books have both had sections saying LOL at people who think big stacks can bully short stacks and yet standard Blonde and Hendon Mob mantra is that Big Stacks have the advantage cos they can bully short stacks...

I don't think you can bully short stacks... the amount of pressure you can apply to someone is determined by who has the smallest stack after all. I do think you can adapt and play them though, and you're playing against them as a short stack so it doesn't matter if you're a big stack or not - unless you don't change your play! I find they make decisions easier...

If you really think short stacks have that much of an advantage then why aren't you pulling up short?

Most people that seem to pull up short at a table seem to be doing it when they don't have any money back (or are simply playing above their bankroll..even at 0.5-1$ you see this) They usually play a lot tighter and therefore can be bullied off a hand.

Someone who always pulls up short is losing out on value when his monsters don't get paid (you see this an awfull lot in Omaha)

[Bongo]

You've not come across the min buyin push preflop crew then?

[boldie]

You've not come across the min buyin push preflop crew then?

I mainly play full ring and on that they are gold!

[JungleCat03]

If you don't think shortstackers can have an advantage in omaha, then you should read Rolf Slotboom's omaha book, which delineates winning short stack strategy in omaha games. It is quite an eye opener.

I think in cash games like omaha/8 it is a big disadvantage to shortstack as much of the edge good players have is extracting max value from 3/4 situations on later streets (and equally miniminsing losses on later streets when being quartered or worse)

Holdem NL cash, I don't play enough to give a decent opinion on shortstacking but there are some good articles out there by experienced cash game players showing there are some advantages to be gained by shortstacking. If you have a big stack though, I would have thought that bullying the medium and other big stacks would be more effective than bullying shorter stacks as you can apply more pressure.

[boldie]

If you don't think shortstackers can have an advantage in omaha, then you should read Rolf Slotboom's omaha book, which delineates winning short stack strategy in omaha games. It is quite an eye opener.

yeah this is top of my "to-get" list at the moment..

[luckyblind]

If you are using a bankroll management plan that means you only have a certain % of your bankroll at risk in anyone game then you should leave a table if you are winning enough to make that stack over your normal requirements. This only applies though if there are players at the table that cover you.

You have to employ some sens with your bankroll management strategy if you are using this system. There is no point having a 20 buy in roll and limiting yourself to 5% max at risk as every time you get above 1 buy in at a table you are then breaking your rules. A better system is to have max buy in % and also a max risk %. When I was playing full time I had 50 buy ins with a max risk % of 5% which meant I could book a 2 1/2 buy in win before leaving the table or I could take a shot at a higher level but leave when I doubled up.

I think the general concensus nowadays if you bankroll is non replenishable by other means then 20 buyins is not really enough anyway.

The scorn on short stackers is ridiculous. There are many reasons to short stack and if done correctly it can be a profitable way to play. The truth is most of them don't know how to play it properly and are easy money and should be welcomed into the game with open arms. The ones that know how to play are also easily spotted and dealt with by a decent player.

[totalise]

It's weird how standard 2p2 mantra is short stacks in cash games have an advantage, the last two 2p2 NL books have both had sections saying LOL at people who think big stacks can bully short stacks and yet standard Blonde and Hendon Mob mantra is that Big Stacks have the advantage cos they can bully short stacks...

ok..have those people sit at my table..happy to oblige. the only thing a shortstack takes away is money in implied odds...and that really is it.

no that really isn't it, a good shortstacker can really f you up if he is sat to your left because he can exploit you. If you have a wide opening range of hands, and can only call a 20bb push with a smallish % of them, the shortstackers can push their 20bb stack into the middle a hell of a lot, and you really cant call, so you are forced in a way to tighten up your opening range sufficiently so that the shortstacks positional advantage on you is diminiushed a lot, and that can really harm your win rate as it makes you play a lot more straight up.

Against bad shortstackers you dont really give two hoots coz they dont care about tryin to exploit you, so you can play as normal.

I can put you to a realy desicion every hand..that gives me the power.

and they can call loose because you are doing this, you dont scare shortstackers, they are either buying in short because they wanna gamble, in which case they dont care what they have, or they are buying in short because they have a strong command of ranges/equity, in which case they dont scare at all. This myth of bullying shortstacks is just that, its a myth.

You won't get paid the maximum for any monster you have, this is why shortstacking costs you money.

most people dont get monsters very often, so winning a lot of small pots without showdown can generate as much profit (probably more) then those that sit and hopefully get monster vs monster.

You not being good is no excuse for making another big mistake.

if they aren't good then the big mistake would be buying in full, for obvious reasons.

[jakally]

There are very few good (and profitable) shortstackers about.

Why?

Because if you have a good range of skills, and the correct bankroll, your optimal win rate is almost certain to come from buying in for the max.

If someone joins a game short, I assume that they are useless until there is evidence to the contrary. Very rarely will I need to change my opinion.

[boldie]

There are very few good (and profitable) shortstackers about.

Why?

Because if you have a good range of skills, and the correct bankroll, your optimal win rate is almost certain to come from buying in for the max.

If someone joins a game short, I assume that they are useless until there is evidence to the contrary. Very rarely will I need to change my opinion.

If only I was half as eloquent as yourself I could have just put it like that and be done with it

[jakally]

If you are using a bankroll management plan that means you only have a certain % of your bankroll at risk in anyone game then you should leave a table if you are winning enough to make that stack over your normal requirements. This only applies though if there are players at the table that cover you.

You have to employ some sens with your bankroll management strategy if you are using this system. There is no point having a 20 buy in roll and limiting yourself to 5% max at risk as every time you get above 1 buy in at a table you are then breaking your rules. A better system is to have max buy in % and also a max risk %. When I was playing full time I had 50 buy ins with a max risk % of 5% which meant I could book a 2 1/2 buy in win before leaving the table or I could take a shot at a higher level but leave when I doubled up.

I think the general concensus nowadays if you bankroll is non replenishable by other means then 20 buyins is not really enough anyway.

I like this a lot.

This also implies that for a FT Cash player that even 50 buy ins is a bit light - is there a level that FT players think is the right number of BI's to have? I have heard the figure of 40 bandied about previously but that was a while ago.

[RED-DOG]

Chili, you're doing it wrong! Stop winning immediately. 

[Royal Flush]

Confidence is a weird thing......2

It's dtd, & I'm playing some £1 £2 Hold-Em, Cash, it;'s just fun stuff, Red & Chili are on the table, & we are into each other almost every hand.

I must tell you about Chili first. She had a rough ride during the early part of '07, was right down to the felt, & her Bankroll Management was not really very good - well, she never had a Bankroll, it had gone, some of it not very wisely. (We've all been there, & done that). But she fought back, got a hold of her bankroll discipline big-time, & now she's in good shape, and she protects her Bankroll with her life. We also tend to "clash" on Cash Tables, where my luck quotient against her is massive, & this has messed with her head.

So, she's a few hundred quid down this night, then I arrive, two to her right, & start messing about in her Pots. She catches me a few times, me her, ditto. Then I found 8-9 suited in Clubs, on her BB, & off we went, the two of us. She had a big hand - KK or QQ I think - but the flop came super-scary, all diamonds, Ace high, as bad as it gets for her holding. Anyway, it gets to the River, she bets, I re-pot it, & she ends up agonising for 2 or 3 minutes, with lots of info-gathering speech-play going off. She Passes, I do the Billy Smart Arse thing & show, & she says, through gritted teeth, "well played". And silently, "you arsehole", I'm sure.

She eventually left, & was a picture of dejection, & £400 down. How proud was I, then?

I spoke to Tom the next day, (who's also very close to Chili), after agonising over it all night. "You gotta play the game hard Tony, no matter who it is" he says. And I know. But then again.....

I rung Chili later. "I'm sorry I messed about last night" I say, & she tells me her version then.

"I was a few bob down, & I KNEW I was ahead, I KNEW you had nothing. But I was on my last pull-up, if I lose that hand, I am not pulling up again, & I have to go home, early. And I don't want to go home early, but I refused to pull up a 4th time".

It's that confidence thing again, see?

As a footnote, I'm so pleased she has got ger bankroll discipline fully up to speed now, that's just gret news, & it means she will survive in the game. She never - EVER - borrows, by the way. She sent me a spreadsheet yesterday, to help keep track of poker profits & losses, it's a great piece of kit, & she fills it in every day. Top Bloke, that Chili.

But I'lll still mess about in her pots, I just can't help it. I do the same with Tom, & if I bust him (in the hand) I always regret it afterwards, ditto Thewy, though that rarely happens!

Do other friends mess with each other at Poker, or am I just a nasty piece of work?, I ask myself.

Oh, & on Sunday night, again at dtd, Chili won about £600 - & left early - to protect her profit! Way to go, Maria, you are the schmizz.

Don't make a call even though you think you should because you don't want to pull up, leave a game early to 'protect a profit' these sound like silly concepts to me, the kind of concepts someone with NO Bankroll management has.

Glad to see you are your usual obstinate self Flushy......Just to clear things up:

a) I THOUGHT I should make a call against Tikay, but it's not from not WANTING to pull up ( I actually done how much I was prepared to do that night and had no more cash).  I also don't take a bank card out with me anymore to avoid being in any stupid situations.. The point being I thought I was ahead but wasn't sure.  I had no where near what Tikay thought I had, it was pocket 8's and with 2 over cards and 3 diamonds, I had no diamond also.  I was prepared to lay it down.  I am at the moment high in confidence but being in a pot with TK just removes the lot due to 3 years of him battering me in cash games by calling with trash and HITTING with amazing consistancy..

b) By leaving the game "early" that was 3am instead of the usual 6am.  It was the end of the week and I was extrememly tired, I had built upto £910 from £150 and ontop of that, with me holding most of the dosh on the table others were mumbling about leaving after doing their money.  So excuse me Lord Flush if your judgement of "NO Bankroll Management" is offered to me.  It might not be written in stone or what OTHER people spurt out as the perfect way to play (if there is one) but is MY way and it works for me....xx

Well that's different to what Tikay had written then isn't it. Surely you would agree doing things as Tikay had written would not be for the best.

[ifm]

Ok you have £2k so you should sit at a £100 pullup table?
Isn't it as good BR management to sit at a £200 pullup table with £100?

[AlexMartin]

Ok Tikay, can you put to bed the rumours of racist private games in G luton?