Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[thetank]

Before they go to school kids play with other kids largely oblivious to the differences of their parents' religion

Before they go to school kids are also oblivious that concealing ones nakedness with clothes is a considered a good thing, that Santa doesn't exist, that animals can't talk, that cartoons aren't documentarys and that the acronym HSBC stands for the Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation.

it's only when their differences are institutionalised that the differences become apparent and are then reinforced.

Another factor being their getting older.

If this was a benign and inconsequential part of these children's lives it wouldn't be an issue. But its effects are far more malignant.

I think you all to often get carried away with your unproved hypothesis about all the many wonders of Utopia that would exist in a completely secular society.

Parents just want to send their kids to good schools. If Catholic Schools are performing well then we're not interested in abstract levels of philosophy as to why singing Kum-ba-ya or whatever at assembly is poisioning the world. We're just happy for our kids to attend.

[nirvana]

Gypsies would never allow homosexual behaviour in public. That may seem intolerant, but it has been that way for hundreds of years. When other societies were out "Gay bashing" or sending homosexuals to prison, we were quietly ignoring them. 

This is such a yuck attitude and sad to see, I would argue that it seems intolerant because it is intolerant. The worst part being that this paragraph reads as if you're very satisfied with the current position.

I've been mollified by subsequent posts saying things like I accept that it is an unenlightened attitude. and I really do try not to slip into the trap of defending when I should be simply explaining.

Really is a stunning thread this one.

This was the para that most prompted a rare post from me. The bit I didn't like, especially from someone so highly regarded here, was a pretty lame attempt to take the moral high ground on the issue by pretty  much suggesting the rest of the world (bar Gypsies) were bashing them or locking them up. Even Gypsy intolerance is better than gorger intolerance ?

ANd Kin, please don't post a longer post on faith schools

[redarmi]

[/quote]

This was the para that most prompted a rare post from me. The bit I didn't like, especially from someone so highly regarded here, was a pretty lame attempt to take the moral high ground on the issue by pretty  much suggesting the rest of the world (bar Gypsies) were bashing them or locking them up. Even Gypsy intolerance is better than gorger intolerance ?

[/quote]

I don't want to put words into Tom's mouth but I don't think Tom was taking the moral upper ground.  I find homophobia along with all other kinds of prejudice hugely offensive but there is a massive difference between describing the overall view of Gypsies and agreeing with it.  Clearly the general view of homosexuals within the Gypsy community is a problem but when compared with the prejudice and persecution that Gays suffer from other minorities (especially minorities with a similarly traditional view of gender roles) then I don't think it is much worse than in society as a whole.  That said inequality whether it is based racism, homophobia, xenophobia, sexism  or even just class or wealth is the problem and I always find it distressing when I see people that are victims of discrimination, and vocal about the injustice of their own situation, display prejudice of their own or even remain silent  in the face of such prejudice. 

The fight against inequality would be much stronger if it wasn't constantly undermined by hyopocrisy.  By way of example it always makes me sick when I see Jamaican reggae artists talk on one track about emancipation from slavery and on the next track talk of "bun chi chi man" (burning gays effectively).  On what basis do they believe that they deserve freedom from slavery and yet believe that somebody else deserves to die because of the way that they were born??

On that basis I do think that a stronger support for across the board equality would help all parties and as such a strong advocate of Gypsy rights it would be reassuring to hear Tom willing to actively denounce homophobia (or any other kind of discrimination) within his own community even if that discrimination was only "quietly ignoring them".   

[thetank]

To clarify, when I said this was a stunning thread, I meant that in a good way.

The arguments (the good meaning of the word argument) are fascinating. RED has a tough gig at the mo and is doing a top notch job, ducking nothing, always articulate, displaying supererogatory patience.

[boldie]

I love Tank.

[thetank]

It's just I re-read my post when someone quoted it and realised the stunning part was ambiguous. I could be meaning that I was negatively stunned by the attitudes displayed rather than positively stunned by the quality of the discourse.

[boldie]

It's just I re-read my post when someone quoted it and realised the stunning part was ambiguous. I could be meaning that I was negatively stunned by the attitudes displayed rather than positively stunned by the quality of the discourse.

think everybody guessed that mate.

Thought this part was cracking though;

Quote from: kinboshi on February 18, 2011, 11:19:51 PM

Before they go to school kids play with other kids largely oblivious to the differences of their parents' religion


Before they go to school kids are also oblivious that concealing ones nakedness with clothes is a considered a good thing, that Santa doesn't exist, that animals can't talk, that cartoons aren't documentarys and that the acronym HSBC stands for the Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation

that was just beautiful.

[GreekStein]

I went to a church of england school (because it was the best in my area) and nothing religious was forced upon anyone. There was no segregation etc and there were several people of different faiths. I then went to a christian secondary school and apart from reading the odd hymn in the younger years, you'd have not even known it.

[AndrewT]

Church of England is the least religious religion there is.

[Jon MW]

Church of England is the least religious religion there is.

This is true and a good aphorism - but to support GreekSteins point, I've taught in a Catholic school where the only sign of religion is a prayer at the beginning of registrations and the school counsellor was a priest. It does reinforce the religion, but only in a very subtle and benign way.

[sovietsong]

I'm catholic and proud! Have that kin!

[RED-DOG]

Gypsies would never allow homosexual behaviour in public. That may seem intolerant, but it has been that way for hundreds of years. When other societies were out "Gay bashing" or sending homosexuals to prison, we were quietly ignoring them. 

This is such a yuck attitude and sad to see, I would argue that it seems intolerant because it is intolerant. The worst part being that this paragraph reads as if you're very satisfied with the current position.

I've been mollified by subsequent posts saying things like I accept that it is an unenlightened attitude. and I really do try not to slip into the trap of defending when I should be simply explaining.

Really is a stunning thread this one.

This was the para that most prompted a rare post from me. The bit I didn't like, especially from someone so highly regarded here, was a pretty lame attempt to take the moral high ground on the issue by pretty  much suggesting the rest of the world (bar Gypsies) were bashing them or locking them up. Even Gypsy intolerance is better than gorger intolerance ?



ANd Kin, please don't post a longer post on faith schools

I'm afraid I did what I fear doing most here.  I gave the wrong impression by wording the paragraph badly.

One of the things I try desperately to guard against is taking the moral high ground. Gypsies in general are no less racist or bigoted than anyone else.

I will now ( God help me) attempt to clarify what I was trying to say when I wrote that paragraph. I hope I don't make it worse.

I said that Gypsies would never allow homosexual behaviour in public. Well, with the proviso that you realise that I am talking in general terms here, I'm afraid that's true, but to be accurate I need to be specific about what I mean by homosexual behaviour in public.

What I mean is they wouldn't allow cross-dressing, or a man to make himself up so that he looked like a woman, and they wouldn't allow two men to kiss or fondle each other in view of anyone else. Now I accept that that may not be right or fair, but, in general, that's the way it is.

I know Gay a Gypsy man who makes his living as a horse dealer. Everyone knows that he is Gay, but he doesn't do any of the things I mentioned above, and everyone accepts the situation for what it is, and they don't talk about it. I suppose it's a bit like a child closing it's eyes to make the bogey man disappear.


I also said

When other societies were out "Gay bashing" or sending homosexuals to prison, we were quietly ignoring them.

Looking back on it, that's such an inflammatory statement. I'm surprised that it didn't prompt a worse reaction. I can't believe that I was blind to the arrogance of it.

I think I was trying to say that, (As far as I knew) Gays were openly persecuted and criminalised by society in general, and it is only relatively recently that the laws changed to become protective rather than oppressive.

I sort of jumped to the conclusion that spending generations pretending Gays didn't exist (as long as they kept their heads down) was was preferable.   

[RED-DOG]

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[Laxie]

Blimey.  You sorted those red days in double quick time!  Well done!!!

[mondatoo]

I felt dead clever the other day when I was explaining the difference between Gypsy's and Travellers to someone when they where talking about that program. Education FTW.

Tom, when are you going to stop trying to losing weight and stick at a certain mark ? Does the missus prefer the slimmer Tom ?