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Author Topic: Squeeze play  (Read 31541 times)
LeKnave
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« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2008, 02:27:54 PM »

...well, if they are half-bright, they KNOW your Range here is enormous, &, after all, as the Thread Title suggests, this might look like a squeeze, to pick up 1,050 of dead money. (25% of our stack).

Pop to the loo, go have a fag, order a cup of tea & a bacon sarny, no need to be panicking yet awhile.

yeah but i was refering to you saying 'the 2nd guy will come along'  if we jam and limper#1 peels, then limper#2 isnt flatting v often at all.
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tikay
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« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2008, 02:28:50 PM »

Cheers.  I usually do wait to get in first but whilst I was in ok shape technically, I was a long way behind everyone else with the average being around 8k.   I seem to get low in the mid stages of comps and was just wondering if I should be looking to do something in these situations as perhaps I was missing an opportunity.   

I just limped in the end, then folded when I obviously missed my set. 

So what? Don't be fixated by the bigger stacks. Be lazy. Let them do the work, & bust each other. You can find a zillion better spots than this.

I'm talking, of course, about Live Play, not Online.

Why?

I know you and I are going to fundamentally disagree on how much wriggle room there is with a 12bb stack. If we shove we are rarely going to get two calls so the 4 overs arguement is a bit pointless, even if we do get called by 4 overs we are probably getting a great price to triple through anyway.

I haven't done the maths but i would be surprised if folding is better than shoving, we should be looking at whether this is +ev or not. Players always over estimate their edge further down the line, you gain your edge by making the correct decision by getting spots like this right.

I can't see how folding is better than calling we are getting very nice price to set mine 33 as long as the bb doesn't raise a lot in this spot.

Apologies, I stand corrected, I never realised I'd said that! The Call is fine, in fact, the Call is Mandatory. The shove is, err, "ill-advised". IMO, of course.

Why are we "rarely going to get 2 Calls"? If we get ONE, & we well might, we almost certainly get two.

I repeat, how much do we like 3-3 now?

We don't need to make this play. Call, yes, shove, never. That's never never.
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« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2008, 02:31:07 PM »

im shoving here with my hand in the air.

If ONE of the limpers calls (& we are assuming the BB does not wake up with a big hand), then the second limper is almost certain to come along, as well.

this isnt true, they only have 30x stacks and cant just peel off a 12x light.

this. People still need to find some sort of hand to call you with. My chips are in.

...well, if they are half-bright, they KNOW your Range here is enormous, &, after all, as the Thread Title suggests, this might look like a squeeze, to pick up 1,050 of dead money. (25% of our stack).

Pop to the loo, go have a fag, order a cup of tea & a bacon sarny, no need to be panicking yet awhile.

I am not panicking here yet..but do reckon this is a nice spot for me to get my chips in with...because a lot of people think like you do..."He's got more than 10BBs so shouldn't be panicking yet...there are already 2 people in the pot that might call" and "It's 30% of my chips" etc.
I reckon people fold a lot in this spot..and if you're racing, you're racing.
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tikay
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« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2008, 02:31:55 PM »

...well, if they are half-bright, they KNOW your Range here is enormous, &, after all, as the Thread Title suggests, this might look like a squeeze, to pick up 1,050 of dead money. (25% of our stack).

Pop to the loo, go have a fag, order a cup of tea & a bacon sarny, no need to be panicking yet awhile.

yeah but i was refering to you saying 'the 2nd guy will come along'  if we jam and limper#1 peels, then limper#2 isnt flatting v often at all.

Well, maybe, but he might well come along.

Why run across the road, with all it's attendant risks, when there is a risk-free footbridge?
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« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2008, 02:36:51 PM »

ship it all in here please, i love this spot for shoving more than i love House marathon on Five US!
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tikay
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« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2008, 02:48:56 PM »

ship it all in here please, i love this spot for shoving more than i love House marathon on Five US!

But the OP never made it clear if this was Online, or Live.

I'm assuming Live, because that's my "area". I'll also assume you'd Call in this spot, & never shove, were it to be "Live".

Online, of course, it's different, because our Tourney Life is so cheap, we play 8 or 10 a night, hoping to get a nice score in one. Before we go busto.
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Graham C
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« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2008, 02:49:53 PM »

It's online
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« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2008, 02:51:05 PM »

would you call or fold here then TK?
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« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2008, 02:52:55 PM »

The problem with calling in this spot is you are using your money to take on a 7-1 gamble. Your stack is getting small and taking on long shot gambles will not improve matters much of the time. So your stack will get shorter still. Calling means you are looking to get lucky to change your situation rather than looking to play poker to change your situation. If both big stacks have limped it is unlikely they have a pair, so pushing with the best hand is a better gamble than 7-1 imo, because it's odds on they will fold, or at least call with the worst of it. Also if you DID hit your set when all-in you will deffo be paid which isn't true if you just call.
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« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2008, 02:53:35 PM »

would you call or fold here then TK?

If Online? No idea. Online is not my skillset.

I suppose I'd do the same as Live, & Call then Pass if I dont set.

It's not often realised how different Online is - Tournament Life & survival has almost nil value, because another will be along in 5 minutes, so it breeds a different type of play. Not worse, not better, but suited to the "going".
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Longy
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« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2008, 02:54:42 PM »

ship it all in here please, i love this spot for shoving more than i love House marathon on Five US!

But the OP never made it clear if this was Online, or Live.

I'm assuming Live, because that's my "area". I'll also assume you'd Call in this spot, & never shove, were it to be "Live".

Online, of course, it's different, because our Tourney Life is so cheap, we play 8 or 10 a night, hoping to get a nice score in one. Before we go busto.

This really should make no difference to our decision, as long as we are trying to maximise our profit and not take into account enjoying the game etc. Which is pretty much what we should be concentrating on a pha board imo.

What is the correct decision in one tourney is the correct decision no matter how many tournies we are playing. Poker is a long term game.

Of course if you are saying the calling range of our shove are different live compared to online well that does change things.
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Graham C
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« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2008, 02:58:32 PM »

Good post Mantis, thanks

It's not often realised how different Online is - Tournament Life & survival has almost nil value, because another will be along in 5 minutes, so it breeds a different type of play. Not worse, not better, but suited to the "going".

100% agree with this, some of the stuff that I get online people wouldn't dream about doing live, people can call so light at my end of the buy in range.
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« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2008, 03:00:05 PM »

The problem with calling in this spot is you are using your money to take on a 7-1 gamble. Your stack is getting small and taking on long shot gambles will not improve matters much of the time. So your stack will get shorter still. Calling means you are looking to get lucky to change your situation rather than looking to play poker to change your situation. If both big stacks have limped it is unlikely they have a pair, so pushing with the best hand is a better gamble than 7-1 imo, because it's odds on they will fold, or at least call with the worst of it. Also if you DID hit your set when all-in you will deffo be paid which isn't true if you just call.

We get lucky roughly 1 in 8.5 times on the flop, calling getting correct implied odds to set mine is poker as far as i am concerned. We still are only calling about 4% of our stack off pre which doesn't effect our fold equity on future hands.



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tikay
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« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2008, 03:00:49 PM »

ship it all in here please, i love this spot for shoving more than i love House marathon on Five US!

But the OP never made it clear if this was Online, or Live.

I'm assuming Live, because that's my "area". I'll also assume you'd Call in this spot, & never shove, were it to be "Live".

Online, of course, it's different, because our Tourney Life is so cheap, we play 8 or 10 a night, hoping to get a nice score in one. Before we go busto.

This really should make no difference to our decision, as long as we are trying to maximise our profit and not take into account enjoying the game etc. Which is pretty much what we should be concentrating on a pha board imo.

What is the correct decision in one tourney is the correct decision no matter how many tournies we are playing. Poker is a long term game.

Of course if you are saying the calling range of our shove are different live compared to online well that does change things.

No, it should not, but it does, for the reasons explained.

I'd play it the same Live, or Online, but most Online players play much, much, faster, & much, much, less risk-averse. Does not make it right (or wrong), but there's another Tourney starting in 2 minutes, & we may well be 4-tabling anyway, so it does not matter much. In Live, If I drive 3 hours for a Single Tournament, let me tell you this - I will fight to my last breath to maximise my survival. So I ain't dancing for my entire Tourney with 3's, unless I'm pretty sure I can get my oppos to Pass - and in THAT case, yes, I can shove. But that's a fairly rare situation.
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« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2008, 03:02:15 PM »

ship it all in here please, i love this spot for shoving more than i love House marathon on Five US!

But the OP never made it clear if this was Online, or Live.

I'm assuming Live, because that's my "area". I'll also assume you'd Call in this spot, & never shove, were it to be "Live".

Online, of course, it's different, because our Tourney Life is so cheap, we play 8 or 10 a night, hoping to get a nice score in one. Before we go busto.

depends what tourney as well, i'm assuming it's not a huge buy in in which case limping late and then calling a 12xbb raise is quite common which of course reduces our FE nethertheless we cant sit about all day getting anted to death then wishing we'd shoved the 33 plus if we get looked up by two overs the pot is giving us somethng like 11/8(actually just read he had 12bb so pot odds not that much for the race but it doesnt really matter).

theres 1050 in the pot and its still a 1/3 of the big stacks chips if they want to call so it's a reasonable oppoutunity to pick up whats out there or race for a playable stack if we get looked up.

I shove that live all day as well cos i probs just wanna get to the bar!
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