Woolwich shooting

[redarmi]

I know there are times when I need to keep by big gob shut or its gonna kick off, this is one of those times    

I have no interest in a slanging match but I would genuinely be interested....

[pleno1]

uncut


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=515920825122146

[TommyD]

You're late    

How is what these people did different to the 10´s of thousands of people killed in Afghanistan and Iraq? Totally legitimate military target, it´s the same war, they fought back.

I was taking the piss out of Boshi with that comment just for banter purposes as we do on here.

Your need to tell me exactly what your on about just so I understand.

We kill enormous numbers of people all over the world, on their doorstep.Then we go crazy when the same is revisited. I´m devastated by what happened, it´s horrendous and uspets me and those people close to me but we killed 100,000´s of people´s in their country´s so please be reasonable.

Ha been wanting to say it for a while now....

We are at 'war' thankfully for us this war has been taking place thousands of miles away far out of sight. Many thousands of enemy soldiers have been killed, we have lost over 400 in Afghanistan. Yesterday this war was brought a lot closer to home, a member of the armed services was singled out and killed. This is no doubt a tragedy, the manner in which it happened is appalling, the reality of what we are fortunate to not have to see was realised for a lot of people yesterday.

My point i guess though is that if what we call over there is a war, and justified, then so this must be as well, no?

If you carry the logic through that this is an act of aggression as part of an active war then do you hold the two men as POWs or do you have a trial treating them as spys?  From what I remember one definition of a spy is a person giving information of their country and committing acts in their country for the benefit of another.  If you consider them the later then I believe it could end with the firing squad.  However I am thoroughly against the death penalty.  (Also against the present wars in the Middle East).  There is a chance to find out the motivation of these men and discover how they were 'radicalised.'  If we could use this information in the future to prevent people being easily manipulated by those pulling the strings (in a variety of organisations, not just extremists or the like) then surely some good can come out of this tragedy.

[leethefish]

I know there are times when I need to keep by big gob shut or its gonna kick off, this is one of those times    

[MANTIS01]

The people of Afghanistan fighting allied forces do stuff like burying thousands of land mines to blow our lads to pieces, or they wear a suicide jacket and walk into a group of soldiers. This is the kinda stuff they do to protect their home from invading soldiers. By contrast we take invading soldiers into care and assess their mental condition before setting them up in some cushy institution for the rest of their days at the cost of millions of pounds. We make excuses for them by saying it's not their fault and they must be brainwashed. And we bring up the b'ham six and guildford four to show how the guy we just filmed hacking off a head might not be guilty. 

I have never agreed with capital punishment but don't get why we need to apply society rules to war. This is our home and these guys should've been fucked up where they stood. Aside from anything else we could spend the money on hospitals.

[Royal Flush]

The people of Afghanistan fighting allied forces do stuff like burying thousands of land mines to blow our lads to pieces, or they wear a suicide jacket and walk into a group of soldiers. This is the kinda stuff they do to protect their home from invading soldiers. By contrast we take invading soldiers into care and assess their mental condition before setting them up in some cushy institution for the rest of their days at the cost of millions of pounds. We make excuses for them by saying it's not their fault and they must be brainwashed. And we bring up the b'ham six and guildford four to show how the guy we just filmed hacking off a head might not be guilty. 

I have never agreed with capital punishment but don't get why we need to apply society rules to war. This is our home and these guys should've been fucked up where they stood. Aside from anything else we could spend the money on hospitals.

Pretty sure by contrast we drop bombs/use drones that take out civilians as well as soldiers

[MANTIS01]

Yeah agree, sadly our foreign policy sucks.

What strikes me is how cold-hearted and aggro we can be in somebody else's backyard but become all liberal and compassionate when it kicks off in ours.

[mulhuzz]

Yeah agree, sadly our foreign policy sucks.

What strikes me is how cold-hearted and aggro we can be in somebody else's backyard but become all liberal and compassionate when it kicks off in ours.

i'm not quite sure what exactly you'd refer to as compassionate and liberal.

lots of the commenting I've seen in the aftermath has been nothing but illiberal and vindictive.

[MANTIS01]

Yeah agree, sadly our foreign policy sucks.

What strikes me is how cold-hearted and aggro we can be in somebody else's backyard but become all liberal and compassionate when it kicks off in ours.

i'm not quite sure what exactly you'd refer to as compassionate and liberal.

lots of the commenting I've seen in the aftermath has been nothing but illiberal and vindictive.

Talking about government policy rather than opinions on FB/twitter.

These two guys had known links to Anjem Choudary who preaches hate against us. Yet not only do we allow him to live at liberty in our country we ship him £25k in benefits every year for the pleasure. It seems kinda liberal not only to allow a citizen to influence terror attacks upon us but to actually finance it aswell. We allow people to stand in Wotton Bassett booing and jeering as the bodies of our soldiers are brought home with signs saying burn in hell. Seems weird that people have the freedom of speech to do that but the speaker's wife can't say "innocent face" without uproar and prosecution. We aren't allowed to deport Abu Qatada because other countries say so. We must adhere to human rights at every turn. Try doing any of that shit in downtown Kabul and see what happens. I can see why support for UKIP is growing.

[millidonk]

Everyone is on edge now: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22658979 It's not too often you get Typhoons scrambled to escort civvie airliners.

Apparently the pilot was concerned about an unruly passenger, just so happens the aircraft was coming from Pakistan.

I live on an RAF Camp and they had extra armed guards and vehicle patrols out yesterday, hoping it's just a case of being overly cautious.

[Royal Flush]

Everyone is on edge now: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22658979 It's not too often you get Typhoons scrambled to escort civvie airliners.

Typhoons no, RAF jets sure.

[Royal Flush]

How can there be a false alarm over a man wielding an axe in London Bridge station?

[kinboshi]

Yeah agree, sadly our foreign policy sucks.

What strikes me is how cold-hearted and aggro we can be in somebody else's backyard but become all liberal and compassionate when it kicks off in ours.

i'm not quite sure what exactly you'd refer to as compassionate and liberal.

lots of the commenting I've seen in the aftermath has been nothing but illiberal and vindictive.

Talking about government policy rather than opinions on FB/twitter.

These two guys had known links to Anjem Choudary who preaches hate against us. Yet not only do we allow him to live at liberty in our country we ship him £25k in benefits every year for the pleasure. It seems kinda liberal not only to allow a citizen to influence terror attacks upon us but to actually finance it aswell. We allow people to stand in Wotton Bassett booing and jeering as the bodies of our soldiers are brought home with signs saying burn in hell. Seems weird that people have the freedom of speech to do that but the speaker's wife can't say "innocent face" without uproar and prosecution. We aren't allowed to deport Abu Qatada because other countries say so. We must adhere to human rights at every turn. Try doing any of that shit in downtown Kabul and see what happens. I can see why support for UKIP is growing.

And that is exactly what are troops are fighting for a lot of the time.

[MANTIS01]

Yeah agree, sadly our foreign policy sucks.

What strikes me is how cold-hearted and aggro we can be in somebody else's backyard but become all liberal and compassionate when it kicks off in ours.

i'm not quite sure what exactly you'd refer to as compassionate and liberal.

lots of the commenting I've seen in the aftermath has been nothing but illiberal and vindictive.

Talking about government policy rather than opinions on FB/twitter.

These two guys had known links to Anjem Choudary who preaches hate against us. Yet not only do we allow him to live at liberty in our country we ship him £25k in benefits every year for the pleasure. It seems kinda liberal not only to allow a citizen to influence terror attacks upon us but to actually finance it aswell. We allow people to stand in Wotton Bassett booing and jeering as the bodies of our soldiers are brought home with signs saying burn in hell. Seems weird that people have the freedom of speech to do that but the speaker's wife can't say "innocent face" without uproar and prosecution. We aren't allowed to deport Abu Qatada because other countries say so. We must adhere to human rights at every turn. Try doing any of that shit in downtown Kabul and see what happens. I can see why support for UKIP is growing.

And that is exactly what are troops are fighting for a lot of the time.

What do you think about that Kin? If we consider the loss of innocent life, the reprisal terror attacks, and the fact we don't have any money, is there any value in fighting for free speech in far away lands?

[kinboshi]

Yeah agree, sadly our foreign policy sucks.

What strikes me is how cold-hearted and aggro we can be in somebody else's backyard but become all liberal and compassionate when it kicks off in ours.

i'm not quite sure what exactly you'd refer to as compassionate and liberal.

lots of the commenting I've seen in the aftermath has been nothing but illiberal and vindictive.

Talking about government policy rather than opinions on FB/twitter.

These two guys had known links to Anjem Choudary who preaches hate against us. Yet not only do we allow him to live at liberty in our country we ship him £25k in benefits every year for the pleasure. It seems kinda liberal not only to allow a citizen to influence terror attacks upon us but to actually finance it aswell. We allow people to stand in Wotton Bassett booing and jeering as the bodies of our soldiers are brought home with signs saying burn in hell. Seems weird that people have the freedom of speech to do that but the speaker's wife can't say "innocent face" without uproar and prosecution. We aren't allowed to deport Abu Qatada because other countries say so. We must adhere to human rights at every turn. Try doing any of that shit in downtown Kabul and see what happens. I can see why support for UKIP is growing.

And that is exactly what are troops are fighting for a lot of the time.

What do you think about that Kin? If we consider the loss of innocent life, the reprisal terror attacks, and the fact we don't have any money, is there any value in fighting for free speech in far away lands?

To be honest, if our young men and women were fighting and dying for the freedom of people across the world then it's probably a just reason to consider war.

However, when people were being massacred in Sierra Leone, Congo, Mali, Somalia, Rwanda, Ethiopia, and many others - our governments were less interested in getting involved. So maybe a desire to liberate and protect oppressed people isn't actually the reason for our involvement.

That's my problem with war. It's those in charge who decide where and who we will fight, based on whatever agenda they want to serve; whilst it's the brave people of the armed forces who have to actually do the killing and dying. If any radical islamists wanted to act against the wars they think are wrong, then their targets should surely be the politicians and leaders, not off-duty soldiers. But this just remphasises that this was the act of sick, deluded individuals. Just like those that blew up and killed more than 20 in Niger only a few days ago.