The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[nirvana]

I think it's a legit position to support the death penalty out of pure vengeance. It's about the only rational reason for supporting it.

Oooo. I think we could add prevention to that, quite easily.

They cant do it again, if they are dead. Pretty rational?

Definitely can't argue with the logic that if they are dead then it will be a problem for them to re-offend - it's not a very rational reason for supporting the death penalty in a broader sense though

[DungBeetle]

I don’t have an especially strong view on the death penalty, but I must say when I see posters on here who would rather win an argument with BigAdz than consider things from the victims viewpoint (including their families) I find it pretty repulsive.   All the focus on rehabilitation and creating contributors for society out of people who kill for entertainment or to show off?   I just can’t understand that mindset.  Cost shouldn’t be a consideration in some cases.

Those people who show compassion for criminals, show no compassion for victims families, but those who want to torch criminals in public show all the compassion for victims families?

Seems like you are finding something repulsive that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Well my post was primarily aimed at you and your absurd whataboutery about Hillsborough because the key thing for you was to prove your superiority over BigAdz who was rightfully enraged about a teenage girl being slain in a park.

[DungBeetle]

I think it's a legit position to support the death penalty out of pure vengeance. It's about the only rational reason for supporting it.

Definitely not against this - the death penalty isn't cheaper and doesn't reduce crime overall; vengeance is a motive I'd respect.

This is my motive when I lean towards it.  I read a story and I want the perpetrator immediately incinerated in front of a joyous crowd.  It’s not just vengeance that is the justification.  It’s also the morale boost society receives from the vengeance.  Can’t put a price on that.

Why do you think society gets a morale boost from killing people?  Individuals may, but it is a stretch to say society does.

I think many people embrace justice for certain dispicable crimes.  I appreciate you likely have more enlightened priorities such as rehabilitation and the sanctimonious discussion thereof.

[MANTIS01]

Reckon society gets a morale boost from being protected from those who commit heinous crimes tho

The criminal element have chosen to detach themselves from society and rehabilitation must equal total certainty such crimes won’t be perpetrated against society again. I few leftie hipsters might want to roll the dice but I would say generally society doesn’t. View on death penalty might be fiddy fiddy but most think life should mean life imo

[kukushkin88]

Any thoughts on why nearly every human civilisation so far has moved progressively further and further away from the death penalty?

[teddybloat]

Reckon society gets a morale boost from being protected from those who commit heinous crimes tho

The criminal element have chosen to detach themselves from society and rehabilitation must equal total certainty such crimes won’t be perpetrated against society again. I few leftie hipsters might want to roll the dice but I would say generally society doesn’t. View on death penalty might be fiddy fiddy but most think life should mean life imo

Judges have the power to use life = life sentences.

I'd much rather leave discretion in the hands of judges than blunt tarrifs.

A focus on rehab v punishment would allow for longer sentences. Sentence the criminal and not the crime imo...

[Geo the Sarge]

Any thoughts on why nearly every human civilisation so far has moved progressively further and further away from the death penalty?

Too soft??

Geo

[Pokerpops]

I don’t have an especially strong view on the death penalty, but I must say when I see posters on here who would rather win an argument with BigAdz than consider things from the victims viewpoint (including their families) I find it pretty repulsive.   All the focus on rehabilitation and creating contributors for society out of people who kill for entertainment or to show off?   I just can’t understand that mindset.  Cost shouldn’t be a consideration in some cases.

Those people who show compassion for criminals, show no compassion for victims families, but those who want to torch criminals in public show all the compassion for victims families?

Seems like you are finding something repulsive that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Well my post was primarily aimed at you and your absurd whataboutery about Hillsborough because the key thing for you was to prove your superiority over BigAdz who was rightfully enraged about a teenage girl being slain in a park.

I think everyone here is rightfully enraged about a teenage girl being stabbed in a park.

What may not be quite so righteous is to jump to the conclusion that the stabbing was a gang initiation. Doobs simply pointed out that the press have a history of not being accurate at every turn. Hilsborough is a prime example.

[Doobs]

I think it's a legit position to support the death penalty out of pure vengeance. It's about the only rational reason for supporting it.

Definitely not against this - the death penalty isn't cheaper and doesn't reduce crime overall; vengeance is a motive I'd respect.

This is my motive when I lean towards it.  I read a story and I want the perpetrator immediately incinerated in front of a joyous crowd.  It’s not just vengeance that is the justification.  It’s also the morale boost society receives from the vengeance.  Can’t put a price on that.

Why do you think society gets a morale boost from killing people?  Individuals may, but it is a stretch to say society does.

I think many people embrace justice for certain dispicable crimes.  I appreciate you likely have more enlightened priorities such as rehabilitation and the sanctimonious discussion thereof.

I don't know what I have done to you, but you need to quit all the personal stuff.  

I really have no idea why you think I don't believe in justice for crimes, when that is exactly what I was arguing for.  And just because people don't believe in the death penalty and vigilantism doesn't mean they are less appalled than others with daytime stabbings in parks, beheadings of innocents or the fate of James Bulger.  

Adz and I have had a few robust discussions over the years, but I like having Adz around here and am sure we still get on fine and I have no plans to "prove my superiority over him".  I am too old for that kind of shit.  Sure we both have good and bad bits about us.

[DungBeetle]

I think it's a legit position to support the death penalty out of pure vengeance. It's about the only rational reason for supporting it.

Definitely not against this - the death penalty isn't cheaper and doesn't reduce crime overall; vengeance is a motive I'd respect.

This is my motive when I lean towards it.  I read a story and I want the perpetrator immediately incinerated in front of a joyous crowd.  It’s not just vengeance that is the justification.  It’s also the morale boost society receives from the vengeance.  Can’t put a price on that.

Why do you think society gets a morale boost from killing people?  Individuals may, but it is a stretch to say society does.

I think many people embrace justice for certain dispicable crimes.  I appreciate you likely have more enlightened priorities such as rehabilitation and the sanctimonious discussion thereof.

I don't know what I have done to you, but you need to quit all the personal stuff.  

I really have no idea why you think I don't believe in justice for crimes, when that is exactly what I was arguing for.  And just because people don't believe in the death penalty and vigilantism doesn't mean they are less appalled than others with daytime stabbings in parks, beheadings of innocents or the fate of James Bulger.  

Adz and I have had a few robust discussions over the years, but I like having Adz around here and am sure we still get on fine and I have no plans to "prove my superiority over him".  I am too old for that kind of shit.  Sure we both have good and bad bits about us.

Don’t worry you haven’t done anything to me.  I just find you deeply irritating.  I wouldn’t worry about it.

[RED-DOG]

I'm being brow-beaten I am. 

[4KSuited]

Any thoughts on why nearly every human civilisation so far has moved progressively further and further away from the death penalty?

Not quite sure what a "human civilisation" is, but I suspect the general move away from it is due to the fear of executing an innocent.

This is (of course) the key factor against the DP, IMO. However, I honestly believe that there are still cases for it, where the evidence is incontrovertible, it was pre-meditated, and perhaps where it is clear that there is sadistic pleasure derived from the act. Ian Brady (now deceased of course, but he actively campaigned to be put to death) anyone? I'd argue that terrorists causing indiscriminate death of civilians should also pay the ultimate penalty: this actually happens in reality pretty much every week by drone strikes in the far east, after all.

Cases resting on circumstantial evidence, crimes of passion, self defence (among others) should not be subject to the DP, on the other hand.

It's taken me at least 20 minutes to draft this, and I have hesitated for another 10 before posting - sure that I've missed an obvious issue out... but I feel that there's a balance in there.

[nirvana]

We should think more broadly about these things - my views on the death penalty have varied a little over time but I'm opposed to it .

OTOH, I'd be fine with life meaning life at times - in these cases though I think I'd also offer the convicted person the right to choose to be killed instead - might even offer them an incentive to choose that option.

[teddybloat]

read an interesting article recently arguing that people should be given the option of being flogged. say 1-2 strokes for each year. so you can opt for 6 lashes instead of 3 years in prison.

takes care of the deterrent, takes care of the retribution and doesn't have the dead-weight loss of those years where is someone going from being employed and a otherwise decent member of society to literally having to be kept by the state. reduces impact on families.

if i was convicted of a crime of a couple of years i'd deffo opt for the lash

[BigAdz]

Any thoughts on why nearly every human civilisation so far has moved progressively further and further away from the death penalty?

Not quite sure what a "human civilisation" is, but I suspect the general move away from it is due to the fear of executing an innocent.

This is (of course) the key factor against the DP, IMO. However, I honestly believe that there are still cases for it, where the evidence is incontrovertible, it was pre-meditated, and perhaps where it is clear that there is sadistic pleasure derived from the act. Ian Brady (now deceased of course, but he actively campaigned to be put to death) anyone? I'd argue that terrorists causing indiscriminate death of civilians should also pay the ultimate penalty: this actually happens in reality pretty much every week by drone strikes in the far east, after all.

Cases resting on circumstantial evidence, crimes of passion, self defence (among others) should not be subject to the DP, on the other hand.

It's taken me at least 20 minutes to draft this, and I have hesitated for another 10 before posting - sure that I've missed an obvious issue out... but I feel that there's a balance in there.

Exactly how I feel.

I may have appeared earlier to want the death penalty for a child nicking a cola cube from a sweet shop earlier, but I think those with half a brain would understand my outrage at the days events and people trying to justify trying to rehabilitate these scumbags.

4k has summed it up nicely. It's not a one size fits all, but if it's cut and dried you murdered someone. Adios scumbag.

Finally, it does feel some days that some posters on here just can't wait to try and win some form of intellectual battle with me, but it's very one sided, because im not that clever.

I think I have a bloody good grasp of right and wrong though, and clear ideas on how I would deal with it, that at 51, you are going to have to work hard to change. But I am prepared to listen.....until you prove yourself a knob, of course. Names withheld to protect the unfortunate.