The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[The Camel]

Having just seen Farage's performance in Brussels this morning you have to hand it to him. The fella isn't afraid to get stuck in and tell it how he see's it.

I've thought this for a while and even more so now, if Nigel Farage was the leader of either the Tory or Labour parties and was fighting their ideals and manifesto's both of those parties would be more popular. If you take away the unsavoury past and the racism does the actual way he fights for his party/Brexit endear him to his supporters in a way that the main party leaders don't?

I saw something yesterday that said the increase in value to the Brexit argument from Boris Johnson's involvement was about a 2% swing.

If you listed Farage's involvement in Brexit simply as politician A. Then listed a 22 year fight to get from a vote of under 1,000 in his first by-election to over 17 million voters agreeing with his view for the leave campaign last week isn't that an incredible political achievement from a man/Party with very little actual political clout?

Could he be seen as a big achieving politician that is Leader of a Party that has too many unappealing views to take them much further. If he was available to the Tory's or Labour to fight their principals for a football type transfer fee would he fetch a huge fee or be avoided at all costs?

** Just to make it clear, I didn't vote last week and have only ever voted Tory in any election so have no UKIP/Leave leanings here.

Just like Hitler in the 1930s he has tapped into the basest fears and prejudices of the population at a time of deep recession.

Yr becoming a bit of a drama queen my old son. Even at the height of 2008s economic issues you can't compare the situation with 1930s Germany.  Not even close. Greece comes closer but all are issues are pretty first world to use a cliché, compared with then. Of course there are faint echoes. In addition, the shift in people's perceptions and actual votes as well as he increase in support for a Ukip thang comes at a time when we were far from in recession. The issue is much more complex and is about first world inequality. It's not base at all or connected specifically to prejudice. It's totally how it should be and it's a shame the mainstream parties don't address this..like, not ever

Glenn, I had an epiphany on Sunday.

My boy was playing a football tournament in Redcar. I live near Darlington, which isn't exactly booming, but there are some nice enough parts and there is broad class spectrum living here.

But while I was in Redcar, I left the tournament for an hour while Jake didn't have a game to find a petrol station.

I drove around some terribly deprived and run down areas. I doubt these houses are worth any more than 45k.

Litter everywhere, dogs running around the streets, broken down cars sitting seemingly every other front yard, shops with boarded up windows and kids sitting out on the curbs like it was bloody 1930. It was anyone's definition of a shithole.

There were union jacks, flags of st george and vote leave posters/placards everywhere.

I just wanted to ask some of the residents "So what is so bloody great about this country?"

It's pretty desperate and you see the same in some southern coastal towns. The thing is I don't blame those people for thinking like they do and I don't blame a politician like Farage for wanting to tap that discontent. I do blame our  me first 'society' and politicians..Most definitely to include the Blairite element. That's the root cause and we should attack those people for creating this environment..not Farage for exploiting it. If we do that..nothing ever changes..except we become more polarised.

You can see it now..The most socially inclined of all the politicians, the most in touch with the disaffected  (not on the extreme right) is having everything laid at his door. It's fkn mental from where I sit and enables the.same politicians who caused the issue to blame someone else, move on and change nothing.

It duplicitous in the extreme for Farage to appeal to these voters.

His policies will not create jobs, cause investment into the run down areas, increase benefits, invest in schools, hospitals or community projects. Which are the policies the people in Redcar need.

They are about cutting tax for the rich. Start and end of story.

Keith, you might want to read this before you assume that Redcar voted Out because they are all ignorant racists...

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-16-118_en.htm

Cliffs: EU rules limit state aid and indeed prevent it being used in rescue situations.

For those who think poverty is a choice made by the poor, Redcar was a true Steel Town and has been all but abandoned by successive governments

I don't doubt there were some legit reasons for people voting leave.

And I don't doubt there are some nicer parts of Redcar.

The parts I saw on Sunday looked utterly desolate though. Absolutely ripe for extremism to flourish.

[The Camel]

I held out some hope yesterday when I read the Boris article in the Telegraph that everything would turn out ok in the end.

Today, I'm back to the conclusion we are completely and utterly fucked again.

[EvilPie]

I don't doubt there were some legit reasons for people voting leave.

And I don't doubt there are some nicer parts of Redcar.

The parts I saw on Sunday looked utterly desolate though. Absolutely ripe for extremism to flourish.

Extremism or just a desperate desire for something to change?

If you're sat in your lounge smoking your tabs whilst flicking through facebook looking at your London 'friends' having the time of their lives in Dubai or wherever aren't you going to wonder how you get your hands on some of that?

If there's no way you can see it happening with things as they are wouldn't you think that a major change might be your only chance?

[JohnCharver]

Im no fan of corbyn, but who do labour MPs now represent? They dont in many cases represent their constituents with their policy of remain but insist on battering corbyn over the head but have missed the elephant in the room, who the hell says people in their constituencies vote any different even if corbyn becomes churchill and speaks amazingly in favour of remain? They are blaming corbyn when they no longer represent working class people or the people they were voted to represent. MPs should represent the majority of their constituents not themselves and the petitions should be from different areas recalling their self serving MP whos pissed because they lost a vote against their own constituents.

[TightEnd]

Im no fan of corbyn, but who do labour MPs now represent? They dont in many cases represent their constituents with their policy of remain but insist on battering corbyn over the head but have missed the elephant in the room, who the hell says people in their constituencies vote any different even if corbyn becomes churchill and speaks amazingly in favour of remain? They are blaming corbyn when they no longer represent working class people or the people they were voted to represent. MPs should represent the majority of their constituents not themselves and the petitions should be from different areas recalling their self serving MP whos pissed because they lost a vote against their own constituents.

9.3m people voted Labour last year.350,000 members elected corbyn. He is in essence splitting the party into two, basically an sdp and a socialist workers party lite. As a result he is guaranteeing another Tory government with a side order of 100 ukip mps . It is madness. No point having principles of you can't win an election to use Any power to do the things you want

[The Camel]

I don't doubt there were some legit reasons for people voting leave.

And I don't doubt there are some nicer parts of Redcar.

The parts I saw on Sunday looked utterly desolate though. Absolutely ripe for extremism to flourish.

Extremism or just a desperate desire for something to change?

If you're sat in your lounge smoking your tabs whilst flicking through facebook looking at your London 'friends' having the time of their lives in Dubai or wherever aren't you going to wonder how you get your hands on some of that?

If there's no way you can see it happening with things as they are wouldn't you think that a major change might be your only chance?

Yes, you are very likely right.

But now what happens if no one is prepared to trigger Article 50 and nothing changes except the names of the people in charge?

People who voted leave are going to (understandably) very very angry.

[BigAdz]

Why is it on the cheap? Employment contracts and redundancy terms haven't changed

And steel man will still have to do his 30 page* document because we are still in the EU right now and even if we weren't it is going to take some time to rewrite all these things that are now part of EU law.  Then even if we repeal some of the rules if he wants to export, and the importing country wants a 30 page document with his steel consignment...

* I have no idea what is in the 30 page document.  

i would suggest that he has to fill in the paperwork because we are in the EU and he trades outside the EU, but us leaving EU, he won't have to.

I guess that was the gist or he was getting very excited about not a lot.

[JohnCharver]

Im no fan of corbyn, but who do labour MPs now represent? They dont in many cases represent their constituents with their policy of remain but insist on battering corbyn over the head but have missed the elephant in the room, who the hell says people in their constituencies vote any different even if corbyn becomes churchill and speaks amazingly in favour of remain? They are blaming corbyn when they no longer represent working class people or the people they were voted to represent. MPs should represent the majority of their constituents not themselves and the petitions should be from different areas recalling their self serving MP whos pissed because they lost a vote against their own constituents.

9.3m people voted Labour last year.350,000 members elected corbyn. He is in essence splitting the party into two, basically an sdp and a socialist workers party lite. As a result he is guaranteeing another Tory government with a side order of 100 ukip mps . It is madness. No point having principles of you can't win an election to use Any power to do the things you want

He is doing nothing, Labour can no longer represent two groups of people, tory and labour are screwed because this is the issue that now defines ones politics. UKIP directly represents one group. Labours MPs are deserting any of their voters who voted leave by publicly flogging their leader in reality becuase they didnt get their own way, the key is their way, not their voters. They are getting rid of a leader they never wanted and pretending its over the vote? I agree Labour cant win a GE, but labours MPs are the ones who dont represent labours core, the working class, so its them who arent labour not corbyn. They are publicly showing they have no intention of representing their constituents (I know noone does) but arent they handing their seats away?

[TightEnd]

No the blairites are in the minority of the 170 who showed no confidence in jc today. it includes genuine left wing mps, not just red Tories. Many of those would be seen as core Labour to any Labour voter.

[George2Loose]

Corbyn is driving his own agenda. If he truly cared for this country he woke step aside to give Labour a fighting chance.

If an election was called and he was in situ God knows who id vote for

[david3103]

Im no fan of corbyn, but who do labour MPs now represent? They dont in many cases represent their constituents with their policy of remain but insist on battering corbyn over the head but have missed the elephant in the room, who the hell says people in their constituencies vote any different even if corbyn becomes churchill and speaks amazingly in favour of remain? They are blaming corbyn when they no longer represent working class people or the people they were voted to represent. MPs should represent the majority of their constituents not themselves and the petitions should be from different areas recalling their self serving MP whos pissed because they lost a vote against their own constituents.

MPs should represent their constituency, and ALL the people in it. Obviously there is a difference between what should happen and what does happen. But this is politics. Full of politicians.

[TightEnd]

Corbyn is driving his own agenda. If he truly cared for this country he woke step aside to give Labour a fighting chance.

If an election was called and he was in situ God knows who id vote for

if it was Boris against corbyn I would vote lib dem as the pro eu party. Never thought I would write that

[JohnCharver]

No the blairites are in the minority of the 170 who showed no confidence in jc today. it includes genuine left wing mps, not just red Tories. Many of those would be seen as core Labour to any Labour voter.

damn no confidence has always been my issue.

[david3103]

Corbyn is driving his own agenda. If he truly cared for this country he woke step aside to give Labour a fighting chance.

If an election was called and he was in situ God knows who id vote for

if it was Boris against corbyn I would vote lib dem as the pro eu party. Never thought I would write that

But we're leaving the EU so the LibDem's position on that front is surely irrelevant?

[TightEnd]

Corbyn is driving his own agenda. If he truly cared for this country he woke step aside to give Labour a fighting chance.

If an election was called and he was in situ God knows who id vote for

if it was Boris against corbyn I would vote lib dem as the pro eu party. Never thought I would write that

But we're leaving the EU so the LibDem's position on that front is surely irrelevant?

I would want to use my vote. I'm the first past the post system many votes are "wasted". Couldn't vote corbyn. Not ukip. Not brexit Tory. Coincidentally and as you say irrelevant but 9000 people have joined the lib dems since last Thursday.