The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[AlunB]

Here is why LibDems say their 5 tests on supporting Syria action have been met http://www.libdems.org.uk/five_tests

this just seems as said, like they are fitting their points to a pre made decision.


at what point is legal even a thing. we have a home office that 'know drugs are dangerous BECAUSE they are illegal', sick logic brah.

we have allies who refuse to conform to international law because they love to torture and oppress other people and take no responsibility for it whilst constantly furthering self serving aims all across the world in the names of 'democracy and defending the nation'.


Whilst Corbyn has managed to often come off a bit idiotic, the media attention he has garnered, and the approach/attitude methods of Cameron only lead me to support JC more and truly hope DC dies in a big grease fire. I am a terrorist sympathiser and I clearly hate the UK right? because I don't want to kill foreign civilians or go to war on the basis of the other big kids said we should and they like totally wanna bomb some stuff, come join us it's fun.

Stating that we are going to bomb them to WIN and then use absolutely zero forethought to have it all fall into place as a lovely peaceful democratic country is just utterly mind numbing. Not learning from our past mistakes of bombing to win and then enabling the region to be even more unstable, whilst selling arms to appalling regimes we back and calling our own countries opposition the 'terrorist sympathisers' is absolutely disgusting.


look at this prick
https://twitter.com/jamesedmunds228/status/671794496997339136

two faced, lying, warmongering douschebag.

Blair must be loving being made to look good!

More moderate language would be welcome please

we really dont want anyone from whatever political viewpoint to "die in a big greasefire" do we?

nor do we need to call anyone a warmongering douchebag, however spelt

much like Woodsey trolling, which is unwelcome for someone who is a professional and softly spoken sensible man (when you meet him), it spoils what is an informative thread


this thread has over a thousand replies and 20,000 views and i dont think a post has ever been deleted off it. its an oasis of manners and civility that we can cultivate further, hopefully

lets keep it that way.

This. A thousand times this. It's a place where people on both sides of the debate often reconsider and change their views based on what other people said. That literally never happens when it becomes hostile.

[AlunB]

Just to add to that, I normally find titaniumbean's contributions to be excellent and thought provoking so I don't want to sound like I'm having a pop at him. I'm sure Tighty wasn't either. More of a general observation on a few heated discussions in the past couple of pages.

[TightEnd]

The problem is of course that any PM has to pragmatic. No PM can realistically turn round and say for example "I have principles and therefore I wont have any dealings with China because of their human rights record".

The real world doesn't work like that.

You have to deal with and trade with regimes that you don't like.

It's easy to take cheap shots on twitter.

Cameron has become the king of the cheap shots. And usually knowingly cynical ones at that. Remember the letter to the Treasury during the election? Saying that Corbyn called Bin Laden's death a tragedy? This latest terrorist sympathisers nonsense? Today he went for some odd "women raping, muslim murdering, medieval death cult" type soundbite in the commons debate. Sakes.

He increasingly talks like a Sun editorial. It's bizarre. I used to think he was a man of some honesty and integrity. I honestly don't know what to think any more. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely I guess.

Shame.

i thought his "terrorist sympathiser" comments were a mistake, as of course you cant apply that to the vast majority of MPs planning to vote against strikes today

it was a party political point pretty bluntly expressed (probably related to the by election tomorrow)

its not strictly wrong to call Crbyn and McDonnell "terrorist sympathisers" when you look at the history and pronouncements of the pair over hamas, hezbollah and the IRA though is it?

all polling says that this is a huge negative for corbyn with working class voters, and a day ahead of oldham that's what the comment is aimed at

[TightEnd]

Just to add to that, I normally find titaniumbean's contributions to be excellent and thought provoking so I don't want to sound like I'm having a pop at him. I'm sure Tighty wasn't either. More of a general observation on a few heated discussions in the past couple of pages.

the same

Andrew and I get on fine, have the odd run in, no more than that

i tend to get old and crotchety when the language goes OTT though

[AndrewT]

I just have to wonder at Cameron's nous in making the 'terrorist sympathiser' comment. It was made at the 1922 committee meeting, presumably a gathering that is usually pretty watertight with regard to leaks and keeping its business behind closed doors. But given that some Tory MPs were already on record as being opposed to airstrikes, did Cameron not realise that such a comment would get aired outside and become the story?

[MintTrav]

The problem is of course that any PM has to pragmatic. No PM can realistically turn round and say for example "I have principles and therefore I wont have any dealings with China because of their human rights record".

The real world doesn't work like that.

You have to deal with and trade with regimes that you don't like.

It's easy to take cheap shots on twitter.

Cameron has become the king of the cheap shots. And usually knowingly cynical ones at that. Remember the letter to the Treasury during the election? Saying that Corbyn called Bin Laden's death a tragedy? This latest terrorist sympathisers nonsense? Today he went for some odd "women raping, muslim murdering, medieval death cult" type soundbite in the commons debate. Sakes.

He increasingly talks like a Sun editorial. It's bizarre. I used to think he was a man of some honesty and integrity. I honestly don't know what to think any more. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely I guess.

Shame.

i thought his "terrorist sympathiser" comments were a mistake, as of course you cant apply that to the vast majority of MPs planning to vote against strikes today

it was a party political point pretty bluntly expressed (probably related to the by election tomorrow)

its not strictly wrong to call Crbyn and McDonnell "terrorist sympathisers" when you look at the history and pronouncements of the pair over hamas, hezbollah and the IRA though is it?

all polling says that this is a huge negative for corbyn with working class voters, and a day ahead of oldham that's what the comment is aimed at

Did you forget to include ISIS this time? You usually accuse Corbyn of being sympathetic to that as well.

[TightEnd]

The problem is of course that any PM has to pragmatic. No PM can realistically turn round and say for example "I have principles and therefore I wont have any dealings with China because of their human rights record".

The real world doesn't work like that.

You have to deal with and trade with regimes that you don't like.

It's easy to take cheap shots on twitter.

Cameron has become the king of the cheap shots. And usually knowingly cynical ones at that. Remember the letter to the Treasury during the election? Saying that Corbyn called Bin Laden's death a tragedy? This latest terrorist sympathisers nonsense? Today he went for some odd "women raping, muslim murdering, medieval death cult" type soundbite in the commons debate. Sakes.

He increasingly talks like a Sun editorial. It's bizarre. I used to think he was a man of some honesty and integrity. I honestly don't know what to think any more. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely I guess.

Shame.

i thought his "terrorist sympathiser" comments were a mistake, as of course you cant apply that to the vast majority of MPs planning to vote against strikes today

it was a party political point pretty bluntly expressed (probably related to the by election tomorrow)

its not strictly wrong to call Crbyn and McDonnell "terrorist sympathisers" when you look at the history and pronouncements of the pair over hamas, hezbollah and the IRA though is it?

all polling says that this is a huge negative for corbyn with working class voters, and a day ahead of oldham that's what the comment is aimed at

Did you forget to include ISIS this time? You usually accuse Corbyn of being sympathetic to that as well.

I'm not sure i do very often, but i think my point you highlighted is valid.

[AlunB]

The problem is of course that any PM has to pragmatic. No PM can realistically turn round and say for example "I have principles and therefore I wont have any dealings with China because of their human rights record".

The real world doesn't work like that.

You have to deal with and trade with regimes that you don't like.

It's easy to take cheap shots on twitter.

Cameron has become the king of the cheap shots. And usually knowingly cynical ones at that. Remember the letter to the Treasury during the election? Saying that Corbyn called Bin Laden's death a tragedy? This latest terrorist sympathisers nonsense? Today he went for some odd "women raping, muslim murdering, medieval death cult" type soundbite in the commons debate. Sakes.

He increasingly talks like a Sun editorial. It's bizarre. I used to think he was a man of some honesty and integrity. I honestly don't know what to think any more. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely I guess.

Shame.

i thought his "terrorist sympathiser" comments were a mistake, as of course you cant apply that to the vast majority of MPs planning to vote against strikes today

it was a party political point pretty bluntly expressed (probably related to the by election tomorrow)

its not strictly wrong to call Crbyn and McDonnell "terrorist sympathisers" when you look at the history and pronouncements of the pair over hamas, hezbollah and the IRA though is it?

all polling says that this is a huge negative for corbyn with working class voters, and a day ahead of oldham that's what the comment is aimed at

Did you forget to include ISIS this time? You usually accuse Corbyn of being sympathetic to that as well.

I'm not sure i do very often, but i think my point you highlighted is valid.

It's valid. As are all of the quotes I used. They are also wilfully intellectually lazy and/or cynical distortions. That was my point.

To use airstrikes on Syria for political point scoring? Pretty awful in my book.

[AlunB]

The problem is of course that any PM has to pragmatic. No PM can realistically turn round and say for example "I have principles and therefore I wont have any dealings with China because of their human rights record".

The real world doesn't work like that.

You have to deal with and trade with regimes that you don't like.

It's easy to take cheap shots on twitter.

Cameron has become the king of the cheap shots. And usually knowingly cynical ones at that. Remember the letter to the Treasury during the election? Saying that Corbyn called Bin Laden's death a tragedy? This latest terrorist sympathisers nonsense? Today he went for some odd "women raping, muslim murdering, medieval death cult" type soundbite in the commons debate. Sakes.

He increasingly talks like a Sun editorial. It's bizarre. I used to think he was a man of some honesty and integrity. I honestly don't know what to think any more. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely I guess.

Shame.

i thought his "terrorist sympathiser" comments were a mistake, as of course you cant apply that to the vast majority of MPs planning to vote against strikes today

it was a party political point pretty bluntly expressed (probably related to the by election tomorrow)

its not strictly wrong to call Crbyn and McDonnell "terrorist sympathisers" when you look at the history and pronouncements of the pair over hamas, hezbollah and the IRA though is it?

all polling says that this is a huge negative for corbyn with working class voters, and a day ahead of oldham that's what the comment is aimed at

Did you forget to include ISIS this time? You usually accuse Corbyn of being sympathetic to that as well.

I'm not sure i do very often, but i think my point you highlighted is valid.

By admitting it's valid to draw that conclusion doesn't mean I agree with it btw.

[MintTrav]

Very good speeches so far, noticeably by Yvette Cooper and Margaret Beckett in favour and Angus Robertson and David Davis against.

Davis - 10,000 attacks so far in Iraq and Syria on 16,000 targets hasn't stopped Daesh's capabilities. More effective to get Turkey to stop buying oil from them. "Get our allies to do their job".

[AlunB]

Have to say I would find it extremely hard to know which way to vote as an MP. Not basing it on my personal view, but on the weight of evidence and what I think best represents my constituency and my country etc.

[Doobs]

The problem is of course that any PM has to pragmatic. No PM can realistically turn round and say for example "I have principles and therefore I wont have any dealings with China because of their human rights record".

The real world doesn't work like that.

You have to deal with and trade with regimes that you don't like.

It's easy to take cheap shots on twitter.

Cameron has become the king of the cheap shots. And usually knowingly cynical ones at that. Remember the letter to the Treasury during the election? Saying that Corbyn called Bin Laden's death a tragedy? This latest terrorist sympathisers nonsense? Today he went for some odd "women raping, muslim murdering, medieval death cult" type soundbite in the commons debate. Sakes.

He increasingly talks like a Sun editorial. It's bizarre. I used to think he was a man of some honesty and integrity. I honestly don't know what to think any more. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely I guess.

Shame.

To be fair, Corbyn did in fact call Bin Laden's death a tragedy.  Even with the whole quote in context, he comes across terribly.  Iraq War was a tragedy, tick; attack on Afganistan, not convinced, but can see where he is coming from; 9/11 was a tragedy, tick; death of Bin Laden in disputed circumstances is not a tragedy.  It may be unfortunate or a bit meh.  But it absolutely isn't yet another tragedy, upon a tragedy, upon a tragedy.  And it absolutely isn't something that is anyway comparable to the other three, let alone the one he seems to have put on the top with his turn of phrase. 

[AlunB]

The problem is of course that any PM has to pragmatic. No PM can realistically turn round and say for example "I have principles and therefore I wont have any dealings with China because of their human rights record".

The real world doesn't work like that.

You have to deal with and trade with regimes that you don't like.

It's easy to take cheap shots on twitter.

Cameron has become the king of the cheap shots. And usually knowingly cynical ones at that. Remember the letter to the Treasury during the election? Saying that Corbyn called Bin Laden's death a tragedy? This latest terrorist sympathisers nonsense? Today he went for some odd "women raping, muslim murdering, medieval death cult" type soundbite in the commons debate. Sakes.

He increasingly talks like a Sun editorial. It's bizarre. I used to think he was a man of some honesty and integrity. I honestly don't know what to think any more. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely I guess.

Shame.

To be fair, Corbyn did in fact call Bin Laden's death a tragedy.  Even with the whole quote in context, he comes across terribly.  Iraq War was a tragedy, tick; attack on Afganistan, not convinced, but can see where he is coming from; 9/11 was a tragedy, tick; death of Bin Laden in disputed circumstances is not a tragedy.  It may be unfortunate or a bit meh.  But it absolutely isn't yet another tragedy, upon a tragedy, upon a tragedy.  And it absolutely isn't something that is anyway comparable to the other three, let alone the one he seems to have put on the top with his turn of phrase. 

I'm not a Corbyn apologist

But yeah you are correct. What I was saying is that Cameron took something true and valid, as you've pointed out, and twisted it to the point where it became something it's not.

Cameron said: "He thinks the death of Bin Laden was a tragedy (OK sort of true but not really, but we let that pass.). No. A tragedy is 3000 people dying in the twin towers."

Did he then say and Corbyn also thinks this? No. No he didn't. He just took the one bit and used it as a stick. It's politics, sure yeah whatever. But I hate it.

[DaveShoelace]

The problem is of course that any PM has to pragmatic. No PM can realistically turn round and say for example "I have principles and therefore I wont have any dealings with China because of their human rights record".

The real world doesn't work like that.

You have to deal with and trade with regimes that you don't like.

It's easy to take cheap shots on twitter.

Cameron has become the king of the cheap shots. And usually knowingly cynical ones at that. Remember the letter to the Treasury during the election? Saying that Corbyn called Bin Laden's death a tragedy? This latest terrorist sympathisers nonsense? Today he went for some odd "women raping, muslim murdering, medieval death cult" type soundbite in the commons debate. Sakes.

He increasingly talks like a Sun editorial. It's bizarre. I used to think he was a man of some honesty and integrity. I honestly don't know what to think any more. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely I guess.

Shame.

To be fair, Corbyn did in fact call Bin Laden's death a tragedy.  Even with the whole quote in context, he comes across terribly.  Iraq War was a tragedy, tick; attack on Afganistan, not convinced, but can see where he is coming from; 9/11 was a tragedy, tick; death of Bin Laden in disputed circumstances is not a tragedy.  It may be unfortunate or a bit meh.  But it absolutely isn't yet another tragedy, upon a tragedy, upon a tragedy.  And it absolutely isn't something that is anyway comparable to the other three, let alone the one he seems to have put on the top with his turn of phrase. 

I'm not a Corbyn apologist

But yeah you are correct. What I was saying is that Cameron took something true and valid, as you've pointed out, and twisted it to the point where it became something it's not.

Cameron said: "He thinks the death of Bin Laden was a tragedy (OK sort of true but not really, but we let that pass.). No. A tragedy is 3000 people dying in the twin towers."

Did he then say and Corbyn also thinks this? No. No he didn't. He just took the one bit and used it as a stick. It's politics, sure yeah whatever. But I hate it.

Sorry couldn't resist

[AlunB]

Haha! That genuinely made me laugh out loud. A lot.