The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[JohnCharver]

Can anyone here think of a more interesting time in British politics than this week? I guess Thatcher becoming PM in 1979 was probably quite seismic at the time.

Never hear anybody talking about politics, now everywhere I go I can hear people discussing it, a subject people never would have thought to bring up pre-referendum. Its the best thing that ever happened to politics in this country and if they fail to honour all they will do is prove ppl were right to not give a shit. Even if the results turn sour then everyone has learned the result of not participating, neglecting parts of the electorate and how not to run an election. For years in this coutry labour/tory have done little more than tear strips off eachother instead of offering credible positives. We are seeing the results of this today, the only politicians actions are self-serving, fingerpointing and totally undemocratic. They really dont care people have spoken, they are in politician mode and making sure someone else is blamed and they arent the ones answering questions. Hilarious remain supporters crying about the working class destroying stuff when theyve totally ignored their plight for years. I dont think anyone calling for the vote to be nullified has any idea of the public backlash it will have.

You are right ideologically but what choice do they have? Cameron's desperate incompetence can't be allowed to destroy a nation just to protect democracy. Even though it's massively important to protect it, there have to be limits.

More people want to leave than stay, there was a vote. If we dont honour it our democracy ceases to exist and the people who dishonoured it cease to represent the people who democratically elected them. What would then happen in that situation? Chaos enough to make fridays economy swing look like a tea party imo.

[vegaslover]

another likely to be very unpopular position

Click to see full-size image.

Not just unpopular, pathetic.

We need to crack on with making the best of the position instead of coming up with such nonsense.

Crack on and drive that bus right off that cliff?

By his logic, every political vote we've had is flawed and should be challenged.

We have Brexit where you, I or this "academic" like it or not.

The reality is no amount of bleating is going to change it.

What's your alternative, get on with it or keep bleating and moaning about a democratic vote?

I have said before, that poll on changing the rules of the referendum after it happened is clearly ludicrous, and I replied saying so on Facebook straight after I saw it.
 
There are other alternatives though.    If Sturgeon has a veto, and several people have speculated she does, then I would say she has a clear mandate from her electorate to exercise that veto.  

Also, the people running the EU should wise up and realise this is immensely damaging to them too and should offer concessions in my view.  Not saying they will, just thar they should.

Or alternatively we should just crack on over that cliff.  If we do I am not going to sit and mope about it, and will just carry on with my life and make the most of it.  But I reserve my right to laugh at the idiocy of most of the protagonists.

Regards.

Great post!

I agree that sturgeon has a clear mandate to use any veto she may have. Having said that I cannot imagine the storm it would cause if that exact scenario played out. While a lot of politicians on both sides would probably initially have a sigh of relief, the division within the UK would probably be ramped up 10 fold.

Looking at that, imo he's not asking for another vote at all. It is, as he points out, clearly ludicrous to expect one based on the principles of the 40% he listed.
What he is saying, is that the Govt used these same rules to try and screw over votes by unions regarding public strikes.

It is these same workers who more than likely have voted leave, as what other voice do the have to oppose the Govt before 2020 (obv before leave won)

[MANTIS01]

Can anyone here think of a more interesting time in British politics than this week? I guess Thatcher becoming PM in 1979 was probably quite seismic at the time.

Never hear anybody talking about politics, now everywhere I go I can hear people discussing it, a subject people never would have thought to bring up pre-referendum. Its the best thing that ever happened to politics in this country and if they fail to honour all they will do is prove ppl were right to not give a shit. Even if the results turn sour then everyone has learned the result of not participating, neglecting parts of the electorate and how not to run an election. For years in this coutry labour/tory have done little more than tear strips off eachother instead of offering credible positives. We are seeing the results of this today, the only politicians actions are self-serving, fingerpointing and totally undemocratic. They really dont care people have spoken, they are in politician mode and making sure someone else is blamed and they arent the ones answering questions. Hilarious remain supporters crying about the working class destroying stuff when theyve totally ignored their plight for years. I dont think anyone calling for the vote to be nullified has any idea of the public backlash it will have.

It is great that people who have been generally marginalised from politics are talking about these issues and I agree if the vote is nullified it will have a huge backlash. I do tend to think there are things the general public should vote on and things they probably shouldn't be voting on. I have been studying politics amongst other things in the last couple of years and looked into the EU issue in quite some depth and I couldn't decide what the correct vote would be. While some people will have voted and have had extremely valid points which swayed their vote, just how many will have voted for the most idiotic reasons which had no grounding in reality?

The whole issue of whether to stay or leave the EU is such an extremely complex issue which will have profound implications for the UK/EU/World for many years to come. I don't feel comfortable leaving such decisions to 'Jack & Jill' who might have been taken in by a compelling extremist 'Britain's First' post on Facebook but have no clue about politics or economics etc. In the same way I wouldn't want a referendum of the general population to decide the best way to carry out a triple heart bypass if I needed one, I would want a qualified surgeon to decide, I don't think the general public were the best way to weigh up the deep implications of EU membership. This should have IMO been considered by experts in the field with no ulterior motives. How you would bring together a group of people considered experts who have no ulterior motives to decide on this issue would be another matter altogether, politicians seem to have ruled themselves out due to their self serving biases...

Yah cos the PM & those super talented expert MPs nail complex decisions. Take the Iraq war for example.

[Marky_Crash]

Can anyone here think of a more interesting time in British politics than this week? I guess Thatcher becoming PM in 1979 was probably quite seismic at the time.

Never hear anybody talking about politics, now everywhere I go I can hear people discussing it, a subject people never would have thought to bring up pre-referendum. Its the best thing that ever happened to politics in this country and if they fail to honour all they will do is prove ppl were right to not give a shit. Even if the results turn sour then everyone has learned the result of not participating, neglecting parts of the electorate and how not to run an election. For years in this coutry labour/tory have done little more than tear strips off eachother instead of offering credible positives. We are seeing the results of this today, the only politicians actions are self-serving, fingerpointing and totally undemocratic. They really dont care people have spoken, they are in politician mode and making sure someone else is blamed and they arent the ones answering questions. Hilarious remain supporters crying about the working class destroying stuff when theyve totally ignored their plight for years. I dont think anyone calling for the vote to be nullified has any idea of the public backlash it will have.

It is great that people who have been generally marginalised from politics are talking about these issues and I agree if the vote is nullified it will have a huge backlash. I do tend to think there are things the general public should vote on and things they probably shouldn't be voting on. I have been studying politics amongst other things in the last couple of years and looked into the EU issue in quite some depth and I couldn't decide what the correct vote would be. While some people will have voted and have had extremely valid points which swayed their vote, just how many will have voted for the most idiotic reasons which had no grounding in reality?

The whole issue of whether to stay or leave the EU is such an extremely complex issue which will have profound implications for the UK/EU/World for many years to come. I don't feel comfortable leaving such decisions to 'Jack & Jill' who might have been taken in by a compelling extremist 'Britain's First' post on Facebook but have no clue about politics or economics etc. In the same way I wouldn't want a referendum of the general population to decide the best way to carry out a triple heart bypass if I needed one, I would want a qualified surgeon to decide, I don't think the general public were the best way to weigh up the deep implications of EU membership. This should have IMO been considered by experts in the field with no ulterior motives. How you would bring together a group of people considered experts who have no ulterior motives to decide on this issue would be another matter altogether, politicians seem to have ruled themselves out due to their self serving biases...

Yah cos the PM & those super talented expert MPs nail complex decisions. Take the Iraq war for example.

I said at the bottom MP's seem to have ruled themselves out.

MP's are not necessarily experts in economics or politics, they have just had the votes to be in their position. I mean real experts.

[JohnCharver]

Can anyone here think of a more interesting time in British politics than this week? I guess Thatcher becoming PM in 1979 was probably quite seismic at the time.

Never hear anybody talking about politics, now everywhere I go I can hear people discussing it, a subject people never would have thought to bring up pre-referendum. Its the best thing that ever happened to politics in this country and if they fail to honour all they will do is prove ppl were right to not give a shit. Even if the results turn sour then everyone has learned the result of not participating, neglecting parts of the electorate and how not to run an election. For years in this coutry labour/tory have done little more than tear strips off eachother instead of offering credible positives. We are seeing the results of this today, the only politicians actions are self-serving, fingerpointing and totally undemocratic. They really dont care people have spoken, they are in politician mode and making sure someone else is blamed and they arent the ones answering questions. Hilarious remain supporters crying about the working class destroying stuff when theyve totally ignored their plight for years. I dont think anyone calling for the vote to be nullified has any idea of the public backlash it will have.

It is great that people who have been generally marginalised from politics are talking about these issues and I agree if the vote is nullified it will have a huge backlash. I do tend to think there are things the general public should vote on and things they probably shouldn't be voting on. I have been studying politics amongst other things in the last couple of years and looked into the EU issue in quite some depth and I couldn't decide what the correct vote would be. While some people will have voted and have had extremely valid points which swayed their vote, just how many will have voted for the most idiotic reasons which had no grounding in reality?

The whole issue of whether to stay or leave the EU is such an extremely complex issue which will have profound implications for the UK/EU/World for many years to come. I don't feel comfortable leaving such decisions to 'Jack & Jill' who might have been taken in by a compelling extremist 'Britain's First' post on Facebook but have no clue about politics or economics etc. In the same way I wouldn't want a referendum of the general population to decide the best way to carry out a triple heart bypass if I needed one, I would want a qualified surgeon to decide, I don't think the general public were the best way to weigh up the deep implications of EU membership. This should have IMO been considered by experts in the field with no ulterior motives. How you would bring together a group of people considered experts who have no ulterior motives to decide on this issue would be another matter altogether, politicians seem to have ruled themselves out due to their self serving biases...

Yah cos the PM & those super talented expert MPs nail complex decisions. Take the Iraq war for example.

I said at the bottom MP's seem to have ruled themselves out.

MP's are not necessarily experts in economics or politics, they have just had the votes to be in their position. I mean real experts.

Experts who are impartial would be impossible, through their learning theyd have far since decided. Our system for this referendum was fair, and lets be fair and say there are morons on both sides. If people vote wrong through ignorance it is not them who failed us, its we who failed to educate them.

[kukushkin88]

Can anyone here think of a more interesting time in British politics than this week? I guess Thatcher becoming PM in 1979 was probably quite seismic at the time.

Never hear anybody talking about politics, now everywhere I go I can hear people discussing it, a subject people never would have thought to bring up pre-referendum. Its the best thing that ever happened to politics in this country and if they fail to honour all they will do is prove ppl were right to not give a shit. Even if the results turn sour then everyone has learned the result of not participating, neglecting parts of the electorate and how not to run an election. For years in this coutry labour/tory have done little more than tear strips off eachother instead of offering credible positives. We are seeing the results of this today, the only politicians actions are self-serving, fingerpointing and totally undemocratic. They really dont care people have spoken, they are in politician mode and making sure someone else is blamed and they arent the ones answering questions. Hilarious remain supporters crying about the working class destroying stuff when theyve totally ignored their plight for years. I dont think anyone calling for the vote to be nullified has any idea of the public backlash it will have.

You are right ideologically but what choice do they have? Cameron's desperate incompetence can't be allowed to destroy a nation just to protect democracy. Even though it's massively important to protect it, there have to be limits.

More people want to leave than stay, there was a vote. If we dont honour it our democracy ceases to exist and the people who dishonoured it cease to represent the people who democratically elected them. What would then happen in that situation? Chaos enough to make fridays economy swing look like a tea party imo.

I don't agree at all on the economic point, I think the market recovery on Friday happened primarily when it was recognised that there is hardly anybody who is dumb enough to actually lead us out, so a fudged remain is very much a player. Liam Fox is a big player too, I reckon he genuinely thinks it could work.

[The Camel]

I'm now convinced we won't leave the EU.

And I don't think the EU will give any significant concessions, if they do, several other countries will go down through the same path we have.

I'm also pretty sure there will be violence on the streets in the poor areas which overwhelmingly voted leave.

UKIP shift significantly to the right and become BNP-lite.

General election happens, Labour wiped out in the North, East and Midlands by UKIP.

And Labour wiped out in London by LibDems if Corbyn remains in charge.

Very very scary times. I envisage UKIP winning circa 100 seats.

[Marky_Crash]

Can anyone here think of a more interesting time in British politics than this week? I guess Thatcher becoming PM in 1979 was probably quite seismic at the time.

Never hear anybody talking about politics, now everywhere I go I can hear people discussing it, a subject people never would have thought to bring up pre-referendum. Its the best thing that ever happened to politics in this country and if they fail to honour all they will do is prove ppl were right to not give a shit. Even if the results turn sour then everyone has learned the result of not participating, neglecting parts of the electorate and how not to run an election. For years in this coutry labour/tory have done little more than tear strips off eachother instead of offering credible positives. We are seeing the results of this today, the only politicians actions are self-serving, fingerpointing and totally undemocratic. They really dont care people have spoken, they are in politician mode and making sure someone else is blamed and they arent the ones answering questions. Hilarious remain supporters crying about the working class destroying stuff when theyve totally ignored their plight for years. I dont think anyone calling for the vote to be nullified has any idea of the public backlash it will have.

It is great that people who have been generally marginalised from politics are talking about these issues and I agree if the vote is nullified it will have a huge backlash. I do tend to think there are things the general public should vote on and things they probably shouldn't be voting on. I have been studying politics amongst other things in the last couple of years and looked into the EU issue in quite some depth and I couldn't decide what the correct vote would be. While some people will have voted and have had extremely valid points which swayed their vote, just how many will have voted for the most idiotic reasons which had no grounding in reality?

The whole issue of whether to stay or leave the EU is such an extremely complex issue which will have profound implications for the UK/EU/World for many years to come. I don't feel comfortable leaving such decisions to 'Jack & Jill' who might have been taken in by a compelling extremist 'Britain's First' post on Facebook but have no clue about politics or economics etc. In the same way I wouldn't want a referendum of the general population to decide the best way to carry out a triple heart bypass if I needed one, I would want a qualified surgeon to decide, I don't think the general public were the best way to weigh up the deep implications of EU membership. This should have IMO been considered by experts in the field with no ulterior motives. How you would bring together a group of people considered experts who have no ulterior motives to decide on this issue would be another matter altogether, politicians seem to have ruled themselves out due to their self serving biases...

Yah cos the PM & those super talented expert MPs nail complex decisions. Take the Iraq war for example.

I said at the bottom MP's seem to have ruled themselves out.

MP's are not necessarily experts in economics or politics, they have just had the votes to be in their position. I mean real experts.

Experts who are impartial would be impossible, through their learning theyd have far since decided. Our system for this referendum was fair, and lets be fair and say there are morons on both sides. If people vote wrong through ignorance it is not them who failed us, its we who failed to educate them.

Valid points. There are independent panels put together to consider all manner of things though. I don't think it would be impossible to put together an objective panel who at least overall had no ulterior motives. Maybe comprised of people representing different sections of society, different political parties and with different values (capitalists, socialists etc) but with one thing in common, they must have studied the issues to limits of the education system and have years of practical experience working in their area and be held in high regard.

[Marky_Crash]

I'm now convinced we won't leave the EU.

And I don't think the EU will give any significant concessions, if they do, several other countries will go down through the same path we have.

I'm also pretty sure there will be violence on the streets in the poor areas which overwhelmingly voted leave.

UKIP shift significantly to the right and become BNP-lite.

General election happens, Labour wiped out in the North, East and Midlands by UKIP.

And Labour wiped out in London by LibDems if Corbyn remains in charge.

Very very scary times. I envisage UKIP winning circa 100 seats.

Unfortunately that is generally how I see this panning out too.

[DaveShoelace]

I'm now convinced we won't leave the EU.

And I don't think the EU will give any significant concessions, if they do, several other countries will go down through the same path we have.

I'm also pretty sure there will be violence on the streets in the poor areas which overwhelmingly voted leave.

UKIP shift significantly to the right and become BNP-lite.

General election happens, Labour wiped out in the North, East and Midlands by UKIP.

And Labour wiped out in London by LibDems if Corbyn remains in charge.

Very very scary times. I envisage UKIP winning circa 100 seats.

Certainly dont see all of that happening, doubt LibDems win in London, doubt UKIP win as many seats as you suggest........but yeah, as a rough blueprint I fear there is some foresight here.

[kukushkin88]

I'm now convinced we won't leave the EU.

And I don't think the EU will give any significant concessions, if they do, several other countries will go down through the same path we have.

I'm also pretty sure there will be violence on the streets in the poor areas which overwhelmingly voted leave.

UKIP shift significantly to the right and become BNP-lite.

General election happens, Labour wiped out in the North, East and Midlands by UKIP.

And Labour wiped out in London by LibDems if Corbyn remains in charge.

Very very scary times. I envisage UKIP winning circa 100 seats.

Certainly dont see all of that happening, doubt LibDems win in London, doubt UKIP win as many seats as you suggest........but yeah, as a rough blueprint I fear there is some foresight here.

And it's using austerity as a tool to farm people to the right that did it.

[The Camel]

How about Corbyn refuses to leave.

Anti Corbyn Labour leaves - SDP style - and joins Lib Dems as a Pro Europe Party.

Brexit campaigner takes charge of the Conservatives, leading to One Nation Tories leaving and joining the PEP.

General Election: PEP cleans up in London and other Remain areas. UKIP cleans up in the North and Midlands.

Tories then make a coalition with the PEP on a stay in Europe agreement.

Plausible?

[arbboy]

Labour have been finished as a serious party for ages now.  As soon as they lost the Scottish vote they were done.  The tories should never have got a majority in the last GE but were gifted it by Labour.  The fact Labour will now lose a monster chunk of votes in their English heartlands and will never be able to win the key swing seats in middle England (maybe not even finish 2nd now in most of these seats never mind win them).

I don't understand why people think leaving the EU is so bad since we voted for it.  Everything we were warned would happen financially short term has happened so far.  There are no surprises.  There will always be short term pain financially just like setting up a new business you don't turn a profit in the first year.  This is no different.

Why wouldn't a Boris or Gove risk their political life/image going for it and making it work?  There is no reason why in 10-20 years this could be looked back on as a great decision by the UK voters to leave the EU when we did (being ahead of the game so to speak) in a results orientated manner if and when the EU collapses.

[JohnCharver]

Can anyone here think of a more interesting time in British politics than this week? I guess Thatcher becoming PM in 1979 was probably quite seismic at the time.

Never hear anybody talking about politics, now everywhere I go I can hear people discussing it, a subject people never would have thought to bring up pre-referendum. Its the best thing that ever happened to politics in this country and if they fail to honour all they will do is prove ppl were right to not give a shit. Even if the results turn sour then everyone has learned the result of not participating, neglecting parts of the electorate and how not to run an election. For years in this coutry labour/tory have done little more than tear strips off eachother instead of offering credible positives. We are seeing the results of this today, the only politicians actions are self-serving, fingerpointing and totally undemocratic. They really dont care people have spoken, they are in politician mode and making sure someone else is blamed and they arent the ones answering questions. Hilarious remain supporters crying about the working class destroying stuff when theyve totally ignored their plight for years. I dont think anyone calling for the vote to be nullified has any idea of the public backlash it will have.

You are right ideologically but what choice do they have? Cameron's desperate incompetence can't be allowed to destroy a nation just to protect democracy. Even though it's massively important to protect it, there have to be limits.

More people want to leave than stay, there was a vote. If we dont honour it our democracy ceases to exist and the people who dishonoured it cease to represent the people who democratically elected them. What would then happen in that situation? Chaos enough to make fridays economy swing look like a tea party imo.

I don't agree at all on the economic point, I think the market recovery on Friday happened primarily when it was recognised that there is hardly anybody who is dumb enough to actually lead us out, so a fudged remain is very much a player. Liam Fox is a big player too, I reckon he genuinely thinks it could work.

Friday recovery was a natural rally due to overreaction of the drop. Tories wont ignore the result as they might aswell hand their seats outside london to ukip. Boris/Gove will announce  Boris will run and how this will take place. Why else would he run for leave? He has nowhere else to go but to run on this ticket? I dont buy that johnson is scared I believe he is continuing the lie that he thought Cameron should continue and reacting too fast would show that up. The same Liam Fox who treat the MOD like thomsons?

[TightEnd]

Labour have been finished as a serious party for ages now.  As soon as they lost the Scottish vote they were done.  The tories should never have got a majority in the last GE but were gifted it by Labour.  The fact Labour will now lose a monster chunk of votes in their English heartlands and will never be able to win the key swing seats in middle England (maybe not even finish 2nd now in most of these seats never mind win them).

I don't understand why people think leaving the EU is so bad since we voted for it.  Everything we were warned would happen financially short term has happened so far.  There are no surprises.  There will always be short term pain financially just like setting up a new business you don't turn a profit in the first year.  This is no different.

Why wouldn't a Boris or Gove risk their political life/image going for it and making it work?  There is no reason why in 10-20 years this could be looked back on as a great decision by the UK voters to leave the EU when we did (being ahead of the game so to speak) in a results orientated manner if and when the EU collapses.

because the next 10-20 years could be an economic nightmare, and with huge social problems when the penny drops that you can't access the single market without being made to accept freedom of movement and if you can't access the single market the future is bleak. It's ok though we'll do 55 trade deals on our terms and no multinationals will leave . Errrrr