The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[The Camel]

Extreme right wing government?

I don't see much in the attitudes of the declared candidates that makes them extreme anything.

UKIP wins 100 seats and forms a coalition with the Tories.

Some things Farage has voiced support for in the past: privatised NHS, legalised handgun ownership, restoration of the death penalty, scrapping racial and sexual equality laws.

How's that little lot for starters?

[The Camel]

Find it increasingly ridiculous that leave voters are dismissed as thick yet we havent had a GE in years where the person who simply looked most like a prime minster didnt win.

That's really funny.

You have just contradicted your first statement with your second.

So people don't vote for the policies which they agree with. They vote for the man who can eat a bacon sandwich without looking silly.

You made my point for me. Thanks.

My point was all elections usually result for the wrong reason, the one time people show any passion they are dismissed as thick. The electorate as a whole are thick/ignorant to the reality, because experts only say what they do for self serving reasons.

You dont really have any points camel, you believe what you have been spoonfed, and because youve been told it, you believe anyone who doesnt believe what we were told is stupid or thick.

Yeah, we are fed up with those stupid experts feeding us with facts and details.

Trusting gut instinct, irrational fears and the way the wind is currently blowing is a far more reliable way to get the result you want in a plebiscite.

So called experts have already made up their mind, are speaking on someone behalf or are financially attached to their result.

LOL irrational fears, like paranoia? Same person whos spent the last 3 pages demeaning the leave supporters over a decision that has already happened.

Irrational fears. Like the Sunderland electorate who voted to leave because they were afraid an immigrant would take their job.

The immigrant population in Sunderland is less than 3%.

The Nissan plant in Sunderland relies on EU funding and is likely to relocate once the UK leaves the EU. Losing more jobs than if every immigrant took a job from a UK worker in Sunderland.

I think that counts as an irrational fear.

I gather you read http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/08/sunderland-how-labour-city-became-one-of-the-uks-most-eurosceptic

I have to say that the few people quoted do appear to have made decisions using less than a full deck. But this was in The Guardian and was unlikely to ever offer a balanced view.


Nissan's faith in the longevity of the North East Male is impressive btw, a 57 yr old apprentice? Whatever next.

PS The immigrant population in Sunderland is given as 3.6% in the article.

PPS pretty sure we can find lots of examples of thick people choosing bad reasons to vote remain too if we wanted to.

PPPS even more certain that we can find some ignorant politicians on both sides too. Ultimately, no matter what you may think of those who voted Leave, the failing was not theirs. The fault lies with the politicians who have ignored genuine concerns about EU migrants over the past 10 years or so, and concerns over the growth of Federal ambition within the EU for over 20 years.

The immigration figure I read was from the Northern Echo I think, I've not read that Guardian article yet, will put on my reading list.

What I have been clumsily trying to say all the way through is very few people had the knowledge or expertise to make a compitent judgement whether the UK is better off inside or outside the EU.

Not most politicians, not most industry leaders, not most trade unionists and certainly not the vast majority of the electorate.

Let's leave stuff we don't understand to people that do.

[The Camel]

Will anyone lay me a sensible price about UKIP having a restoration of the death penalty in their manifesto for the next general election?

[JohnCharver]

Tory policy is dictated by labour at next GE imo. If they have a big old lefty tory can move right and still hold centre but hold off ukip. Where it becomes impossible for tories if labour get a centre candidate (who can eat a bacon sandwich, resist a few jokes as labour has enough of that) tory have to defend the middle and hand alot of right to ukip.

Camel do you not think tory centre will resist a ukip coalition as there could end up with a lot of blurred lines. Theres clearly a lot of ukip tory mps whove put career over their principles, if ukip grows who knows which side they end up when it breaks.

[PokerBroker]

I don't see the Conservative candidates as extreme right wing, I see them as neoliberals and to me that is were the problem starts and end.  Traditional left and right positions are blurred.  

I don't see the EU as good and Brexiteers as bad.  I think both are proably as shady as each other in terms of power brokers but we can get more control of our own democracy outside the EU or at least on the fringes.  

During the Scottish indyref my default position was always for a place in EFTA, I think that is probably a good place for the UK to be now.  

[PokerBroker]

Extreme right wing government?

I don't see much in the attitudes of the declared candidates that makes them extreme anything.

UKIP wins 100 seats and forms a coalition with the Tories.

Some things Farage has voiced support for in the past: privatised NHS, legalised handgun ownership, restoration of the death penalty, scrapping racial and sexual equality laws.

How's that little lot for starters?

What price you think UKIP are to get

10 - 19 seats?
20 - 33 seats?
34 -51 seats?
51 - 60 seats?
61 - 67 seats?
67 + 

[JohnCharver]

Extreme right wing government?

I don't see much in the attitudes of the declared candidates that makes them extreme anything.

UKIP wins 100 seats and forms a coalition with the Tories.

Some things Farage has voiced support for in the past: privatised NHS, legalised handgun ownership, restoration of the death penalty, scrapping racial and sexual equality laws.

How's that little lot for starters?

What price you think UKIP are to get

10 - 19 seats?
20 - 33 seats?
34 -51 seats?
51 - 60 seats?
61 - 67 seats?
67 + 

Youd need to know whether brexit is honoured, free movement is ended and whos on the hotseat for big 2?

[The Camel]

Extreme right wing government?

I don't see much in the attitudes of the declared candidates that makes them extreme anything.

UKIP wins 100 seats and forms a coalition with the Tories.

Some things Farage has voiced support for in the past: privatised NHS, legalised handgun ownership, restoration of the death penalty, scrapping racial and sexual equality laws.

How's that little lot for starters?

What price you think UKIP are to get

10 - 19 seats?
20 - 33 seats?
34 -51 seats?
51 - 60 seats?
61 - 67 seats?
67 + 

I've bought UKIP seats at 25.

If Corbyn holds on until the next election and goes with a pro Brexit, anti free movement manifesto, which seeems increasingly likely if you listen to John McDonnell, I think the UKIP march will be halted somewhat.

If Corbyn goes and is replaced by a more pro-Europe leader, Labour will be wiped out in NE, NW, much of Wales and Midlands.

I would make the U/O for UKIP seats somewhere in the 70s.

[The Camel]

Tory policy is dictated by labour at next GE imo. If they have a big old lefty tory can move right and still hold centre but hold off ukip. Where it becomes impossible for tories if labour get a centre candidate (who can eat a bacon sandwich, resist a few jokes as labour has enough of that) tory have to defend the middle and hand alot of right to ukip.

Camel do you not think tory centre will resist a ukip coalition as there could end up with a lot of blurred lines. Theres clearly a lot of ukip tory mps whove put career over their principles, if ukip grows who knows which side they end up when it breaks.

Cameron has given up our membership of the EU for power and he's about the most one nation Tory as you'll find this side of Heseltine and Clarke.

If it means staying in power, I have little doubt the Tories will cosy up to Farage.

[The Camel]

Is knowledge knowing that a tomato is a fruit but wisdom knowing not to put it in the fruit salad?

No. Knowledge is knowing when someone is trolling but wisdom is knowing not to argue with them.

You troll me relentlessly despite me asking you politely on more than one occasion to ignore my posts.

I have no idea why I annoy you so much, but I am not going to change my outlook on life just to please you.

I don't know why you assume I was referring to you, but there's a simple solution, just ignore my posts.

I dunno, maybe "Oh, sorry, I thought we were having a serious discussion. I'll leave you to it." made me think you were referring to me.

Well maybe I thought "My definition of thick is someone who votes in a referendum for something which is clearly against his and his families best interest" was not a serious answer.


Just for clarity, (although I'm sure I've said this before) this is a public forum, I have absolutely no intention of ignoring your posts, If I have an opposite opinion to yours I will post it, if I have a question for you, I will ask it.

I have no problem with people who disagree with me. DungBeetle and RickBFA couldn't have be much more polar opposite with their views on politics. Yet my interaction with them always manages to be cordial yet robust.

You seem to always want to make sly little personal digs. As I said earlier I don't know why you do it.

You drove me off the forum once for 6 months, but I came to realise how much I enjoyed posting here, so I won't let you do it again.

That's just not true though. We had differing opinions. As far as I can remember you said old people shouldn't be allowed to vote and I didn't agree with you. You couldn't get your own way so you sulked for 6 months.

If I'm wrong please link me to what ever it is you are referring to and I will look at it again and re evaluate.

See, there you go again, with an unnecessary personal dig.

Maybe it's just your posting style and you don't realise you are doing it.

[RickBFA]

Extreme right wing government?

I don't see much in the attitudes of the declared candidates that makes them extreme anything.

UKIP wins 100 seats and forms a coalition with the Tories.

Some things Farage has voiced support for in the past: privatised NHS, legalised handgun ownership, restoration of the death penalty, scrapping racial and sexual equality laws.

How's that little lot for starters?

The vast majority, if not all of that list are never going to happen.

The world, UK, even the Tories have moved on over the years.

Even if UKIP get significant seats, no sane politician from the Tory party is going to allow those to be part of any agreement.

Do you think you are in danger of finding the most radial things Farage has said in his political life and painting them as the norm? (I don't support UKIP or Farage).

[JohnCharver]

Extreme right wing government?

I don't see much in the attitudes of the declared candidates that makes them extreme anything.

UKIP wins 100 seats and forms a coalition with the Tories.

Some things Farage has voiced support for in the past: privatised NHS, legalised handgun ownership, restoration of the death penalty, scrapping racial and sexual equality laws.

How's that little lot for starters?

What price you think UKIP are to get

10 - 19 seats?
20 - 33 seats?
34 -51 seats?
51 - 60 seats?
61 - 67 seats?
67 + 

I've bought UKIP seats at 25.

If Corbyn holds on until the next election and goes with a pro Brexit, anti free movement manifesto, which seeems increasingly likely if you listen to John McDonnell, I think the UKIP march will be halted somewhat.

If Corbyn goes and is replaced by a more pro-Europe leader, Labour will be wiped out in NE, NW, much of Wales and Midlands.

I would make the U/O for UKIP seats somewhere in the 70s.

UKIP are in reality a one policy party though, if the tories dont allow free movement, whats their purpose anymore? I can imagine them making inroads if brexit negotiating doesnt give leave voters what they wanted but other then that they were never a viable political choice; hence last elections failure. As long as we got what we wanted tories are as far right as was tolerable. Labour only gets wiped out if they go rejoining or something as silly.

[RED-DOG]

Is knowledge knowing that a tomato is a fruit but wisdom knowing not to put it in the fruit salad?

No. Knowledge is knowing when someone is trolling but wisdom is knowing not to argue with them.

You troll me relentlessly despite me asking you politely on more than one occasion to ignore my posts.

I have no idea why I annoy you so much, but I am not going to change my outlook on life just to please you.

I don't know why you assume I was referring to you, but there's a simple solution, just ignore my posts.

I dunno, maybe "Oh, sorry, I thought we were having a serious discussion. I'll leave you to it." made me think you were referring to me.

Well maybe I thought "My definition of thick is someone who votes in a referendum for something which is clearly against his and his families best interest" was not a serious answer.


Just for clarity, (although I'm sure I've said this before) this is a public forum, I have absolutely no intention of ignoring your posts, If I have an opposite opinion to yours I will post it, if I have a question for you, I will ask it.

I have no problem with people who disagree with me. DungBeetle and RickBFA couldn't have be much more polar opposite with their views on politics. Yet my interaction with them always manages to be cordial yet robust.

You seem to always want to make sly little personal digs. As I said earlier I don't know why you do it.

You drove me off the forum once for 6 months, but I came to realise how much I enjoyed posting here, so I won't let you do it again.

That's just not true though. We had differing opinions. As far as I can remember you said old people shouldn't be allowed to vote and I didn't agree with you. You couldn't get your own way so you sulked for 6 months.

If I'm wrong please link me to what ever it is you are referring to and I will look at it again and re evaluate.

See, there you go again, with an unnecessary personal dig.

Maybe it's just your posting style and you don't realise you are doing it.

You said I drove you off the forum for 6 months. I think that qualifies a personal attack and warrants a robust reply.

However, I'm not so conceited as to think I couldn't be wrong so I will invite you once again to link me to what ever it is you are referring to and I will look at it again and re evaluate.

[david3103]

Extreme right wing government?

I don't see much in the attitudes of the declared candidates that makes them extreme anything.

UKIP wins 100 seats and forms a coalition with the Tories.

Some things Farage has voiced support for in the past: privatised NHS, legalised handgun ownership, restoration of the death penalty, scrapping racial and sexual equality laws.

How's that little lot for starters?

When do you think the next GE will be?

Tories hang on to what they have till 2020, or call an early election in an attempt to 'get a mandate' for the new leader and to muddy the waters around the referendum result?

[The Camel]

Extreme right wing government?

I don't see much in the attitudes of the declared candidates that makes them extreme anything.

UKIP wins 100 seats and forms a coalition with the Tories.

Some things Farage has voiced support for in the past: privatised NHS, legalised handgun ownership, restoration of the death penalty, scrapping racial and sexual equality laws.

How's that little lot for starters?

The vast majority, if not all of that list are never going to happen.

The world, UK, even the Tories have moved on over the years.

Even if UKIP get significant seats, no sane politician from the Tory party is going to allow those to be part of any agreement.

Do you think you are in danger of finding the most radial things Farage has said in his political life and painting them as the norm? (I don't support UKIP or Farage).

I think we'll have the death penalty back before 2025.

I've seen a Tory minister already championing the removal of the constraints the EU make on workers rights.

The NHS is being stealth privatised already. And it areas where they aren't doing that, they will go down the classic route of underfunding and then screaming out "the NHS isn't working".

I will be dead before firearms are legalised hopefully. But I fear Jake won't be. What a country we will have turned into by then.