The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[The Camel]

In order to have any chance in the next election I think Corbyn needs to go very hard left.

Promise to raise benefits, scrap university fees + bringing back full student grants, build 100s of thousands of cheap new homes, increase minimum wage, massively increase tax on multinational corporations, re-introduce super tax, renationalise the country's utilities.

Basically take from the rich and give to the poor.

He has zero shot the way he's going, so he might as well go down all guns blazing with a far left manifesto, which might just fire up the people who don't bother to vote right now.

Probably would need to completely halt immigration too though.

He would bankrupt the country either way, but less so if he halted immigration under that plan. However, while the Labour base would be happy with that, the Corbynistas would be against the immigration halting, which would lose him his mandate and get him ousted. Not that he ever would halt it anyway.

The thing which Brexit vote proved is that most people don't give two hoots about the economy.

What difference to them if FTSE collapses or the pound falls through the floor?

Yet give someone the chance who has only ever lived in rented accomodation the chance to own their own flat or house and you have a supporter for life.

Sort of like Thatcher did when she sold off all the council houses.

Jury's still out on the economy of course, but think you are on to something with owning houses and Thatcher etc, lot of hopelessness in young folk these days based around that (lots of em living with parents till their 30s).

Course I hope it doesn't happen because 18 months on we will all be homeless roasting rats of campfires in that 'give everyone free shit' Corbyn Utopia.

I think renationalising the railways would be a huge winner too.

Sure I read something like 40% of Tories were somewhat in favour of that.

Need lots of populist policies.

[TightEnd]

In order to have any chance in the next election I think Corbyn needs to go very hard left.

Promise to raise benefits, scrap university fees + bringing back full student grants, build 100s of thousands of cheap new homes, increase minimum wage, massively increase tax on multinational corporations, re-introduce super tax, renationalise the country's utilities.

Basically take from the rich and give to the poor.

He has zero shot the way he's going, so he might as well go down all guns blazing with a far left manifesto, which might just fire up the people who don't bother to vote right now.

Probably would need to completely halt immigration too though.

He would bankrupt the country either way, but less so if he halted immigration under that plan. However, while the Labour base would be happy with that, the Corbynistas would be against the immigration halting, which would lose him his mandate and get him ousted. Not that he ever would halt it anyway.

The thing which Brexit vote proved is that most people don't give two hoots about the economy.

What difference to them if FTSE collapses or the pound falls through the floor?

Yet give someone the chance who has only ever lived in rented accomodation the chance to own their own flat or house and you have a supporter for life.

Sort of like Thatcher did when she sold off all the council houses.

they'd give two hoots if inflation roared away (the deficit would go even more bananas than it has been since the 2008 crash) while wages didn't increase to match and their purchasing power eroded massively

this happened under Wilson and Callaghan labour goverments, not under Blair

i understand the plan would be to raise the money from corporations, rich individuals etc and transfer to other sectors of society but the tex avoidance industry is too smart to allow collection of all the money you think should be raised. corporates will move offshore etc

Increase inheritance tax too.

the sums have never worked under hard left governments.

for example the plan to build zillions of new homes (agree, housing policy is a shambles) you have to buy the land off the very people you are planning to squeeze til their pips squeak in tax take

over and above that the majority of voters vote in self interest. the working class left is a minority compared to people who would like tax cuts, and you'd be slamming many of them into unemployment too as firms adjust to the harsher corporate environment

[DaveShoelace]

I think renationalising the railways would be a huge winner too.

Why? Genuinely asking, bit of a blind spot for me and all my experiences of rail (reasonable amount) have been positive.

Is it because its so expensive or a poor service? If its the former then it makes sense, if its the latter than I disagree.

[The Camel]

In order to have any chance in the next election I think Corbyn needs to go very hard left.

Promise to raise benefits, scrap university fees + bringing back full student grants, build 100s of thousands of cheap new homes, increase minimum wage, massively increase tax on multinational corporations, re-introduce super tax, renationalise the country's utilities.

Basically take from the rich and give to the poor.

He has zero shot the way he's going, so he might as well go down all guns blazing with a far left manifesto, which might just fire up the people who don't bother to vote right now.

Probably would need to completely halt immigration too though.

He would bankrupt the country either way, but less so if he halted immigration under that plan. However, while the Labour base would be happy with that, the Corbynistas would be against the immigration halting, which would lose him his mandate and get him ousted. Not that he ever would halt it anyway.

The thing which Brexit vote proved is that most people don't give two hoots about the economy.

What difference to them if FTSE collapses or the pound falls through the floor?

Yet give someone the chance who has only ever lived in rented accomodation the chance to own their own flat or house and you have a supporter for life.

Sort of like Thatcher did when she sold off all the council houses.

they'd give two hoots if inflation roared away (the deficit would go even more bananas than it has been since the 2008 crash) while wages didn't increase to match and their purchasing power eroded massively

this happened under Wilson and Callaghan labour goverments, not under Blair

i understand the plan would be to raise the money from corporations, rich individuals etc and transfer to other sectors of society but the tex avoidance industry is too smart to allow collection of all the money you think should be raised. corporates will move offshore etc

Increase inheritance tax too.

the sums have never worked under hard left governments.

for example the plan to build zillions of new homes (agree, housing policy is a shambles) you have to buy the land off the very people you are planning to squeeze til their pips squeak in tax take

over and above that the majority of voters vote in self interest. the working class left is a minority compared to people who would like tax cuts, and you'd be slamming many of them into unemployment too as firms adjust to the harsher corporate environment

Compulsory purchase the land needed to build new homes.

That's what the MoD does if it needs land, or the Ministry of Transport does for widening or building new roads.

I agree people vote on self interest and it would be a delicate balancing act, targetting the rich, but not the middle classes.

I'm whistling in the dark really, but they have to accept Corbyn has no chance of winning at the moment. Labour needs to be populist, at the moment they are appealing to minorities and political activists. They need policies that fire up the people who voted for Brexit and Trump.

[Woodsey]

I think renationalising the railways would be a huge winner too.

Why? Genuinely asking, bit of a blind spot for me and all my experiences of rail (reasonable amount) have been positive.

Is it because its so expensive or a poor service? If its the former then it makes sense, if its the latter than I disagree.

British Rail was shit back in the day, it would be a terrible move. I''m on the train 2-3 days per week and they do a pretty decent job now on the whole.

[The Camel]

I think renationalising the railways would be a huge winner too.

Why? Genuinely asking, bit of a blind spot for me and all my experiences of rail (reasonable amount) have been positive.

Is it because its so expensive or a poor service? If its the former then it makes sense, if its the latter than I disagree.

The rail network is a complete mess.

They spend a third of the day running trains which are packed to bursting point and the rest of the day running empty trains.

Monopolies (or virtual monopolies) should not be in private hands. Leads to excess profit taking and bad service.

[Jon MW]

I think renationalising the railways would be a huge winner too.

Why? Genuinely asking, bit of a blind spot for me and all my experiences of rail (reasonable amount) have been positive.

Is it because its so expensive or a poor service? If its the former then it makes sense, if its the latter than I disagree.

British Rail was shit back in the day, it would be a terrible move. I''m on the train 2-3 days per week and they do a pretty decent job now on the whole.

This - most of the people complaining never had to commute under British Rail. Either because they were too young, or because so few people did at all (at least compared to now).

There's plenty wrong with the trains now, including (sort of) what Camel says - you 'shouldn't' really let virtual monopolies be run as a private company - but by all I've heard it's many times better than it was and that's with many, many more passengers to transport.

[Jon MW]

...

They spend a third of the day running trains which are packed to bursting point and the rest of the day running empty trains.

...

I don't really see how that's much to it being in private hands (?)

If the nearly empty trains didn't run you'd have less of a service for the few people who were using them at that time - and if the nationalised option was to get more rolling stock for the busy times it would leave even more wasted over capacity for the quiet times (and that's assuming the signalling and infrastructure would even allow extra rolling stock to be running).

[Doobs]

I think renationalising the railways would be a huge winner too.

Why? Genuinely asking, bit of a blind spot for me and all my experiences of rail (reasonable amount) have been positive.

Is it because its so expensive or a poor service? If its the former then it makes sense, if its the latter than I disagree.

British Rail was shit back in the day, it would be a terrible move. I''m on the train 2-3 days per week and they do a pretty decent job now on the whole.

This - most of the people complaining never had to commute under British Rail. Either because they were too young, or because so few people did at all (at least compared to now).

There's plenty wrong with the trains now, including (sort of) what Camel says - you 'shouldn't' really let virtual monopolies be run as a private company - but by all I've heard it's many times better than it was and that's with many, many more passengers to transport.

Agree with Woodsey too.  On a train right now.  Such an improvement over times past.  Much nicer experience than the plane, not much slower and cheaper too. 

Glad I don't have to use Southern tho. 

[arbboy]

Travelling virgin first class is an absolute pleasure for the tiny fares you pay in advance.   Can't imagine the service would be anything like that in a communist world.

[The Camel]

Here you go:

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/08/06/support-radical-left-and-right/

How about Labour offering 6 or 7 of those policies?

[Woodsey]

Travelling virgin first class is an absolute pleasure for the tiny fares you pay in advance.   Can't imagine the service would be anything like that in a communist world.

Free booze too!

[TightEnd]

Brexit could be reversed, government lawyers may argue
Legal team looking at possibility of arguing in supreme court appeal that MPs’ vote not needed as article 50 can be revoked

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/11/brexit-could-be-reversed-government-lawyers-may-argue?CMP=twt_gu

[doubleup]

Brexit could be reversed, government lawyers may argue
Legal team looking at possibility of arguing in supreme court appeal that MPs’ vote not needed as article 50 can be revoked

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/11/brexit-could-be-reversed-government-lawyers-may-argue?CMP=twt_gu

an irony

Supreme Court will likely have to consult with ECJ over whether A50 is irrevocable

https://polcms.secure.europarl.europa.eu/cmsdata/upload/303548f7-ed4b-4a35-bfb8-efa4c183ff76/AFCO%20Brexit%20Memorandum%2008-11-16%20(Andrew%20Duff).pdf

Click to see full-size image.

Can they do that?  I thought that appeals could only be on points of law at issue in the original case or new evidence (in some circumstances)? 

[RickBFA]

In order to have any chance in the next election I think Corbyn needs to go very hard left.

Promise to raise benefits, scrap university fees + bringing back full student grants, build 100s of thousands of cheap new homes, increase minimum wage, massively increase tax on multinational corporations, re-introduce super tax, renationalise the country's utilities.

Basically take from the rich and give to the poor.

He has zero shot the way he's going, so he might as well go down all guns blazing with a far left manifesto, which might just fire up the people who don't bother to vote right now.

Probably would need to completely halt immigration too though.

He would bankrupt the country either way, but less so if he halted immigration under that plan. However, while the Labour base would be happy with that, the Corbynistas would be against the immigration halting, which would lose him his mandate and get him ousted. Not that he ever would halt it anyway.

The thing which Brexit vote proved is that most people don't give two hoots about the economy.

What difference to them if FTSE collapses or the pound falls through the floor?

Yet give someone the chance who has only ever lived in rented accomodation the chance to own their own flat or house and you have a supporter for life.

Sort of like Thatcher did when she sold off all the council houses.

I was talking to a good friend this week who asked if I'd heard the rumours about Corbyn's possible housing policy - allow tenants to buy from private landlords at up to 40% discount on current market value.

Not seen that myself but seems to be a rumour doing the rounds.

It's pretty irrelevant anyway because even with "popular" very left wing policies, we are never getting a Labour government under his leadership.