The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[BigAdz]

This whole thing comes down to the fact Britain has lost it’s identity over the last few decades

Some people care about that a lot.

Some people don’t care about that at all.

I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested in this.

What is " The whole thing" how would you define Britain's identity, and what, or who exactly has lost it?

The divide has been present throughout and in fact those differences have become more entrenched across the last two years. Several commentators have identified a generational divide between old and young and that appears to be statistically true. Rhetoric towards the 'old' has been rather condescending imo and they've been labelled racist, stubborn or stupid. Trying to look at the situation objectively I would guess that the old are more invested in the generation-defining WWII than the young. Even today look at the % of old wearing poppies vs the young. Must say that if a loved one was blown to bits fighting for certain freedoms I would be heavily invested in those freedoms, whatever the cost.

So we can take war as an example to answer your question. All those British kids who lost their lives were fighting for something, to protect certain values. Whatever those values are equals identity and it can mean different things to different people. But we do have a vivid history of entering conflicts in all corners of the world and that has created an identity. We are always told that it's vital for Britain to defend freedom from tyranny. Go to the other side of the world and throw thousands of innocent lives away along with gazillions of pounds to protect values. It would make major economic sense not to enter these conflicts. Who would care if we appear spineless?

Remain argument says people should happily and readily toss aside deeply ingrained values because of the threat of marginal economic decline. Think that's a major divide. 

Another example would be immigration. Growing up in Birmingham it was rare to see a face that wasn't white. Fast forward a few decades and there are vast swathes of the city where there are no white people at all and English isn't spoken in the shops. A very multicultural city just like many across the country, another very clear change in identity. But hey it's something that British people have embraced and we've created one of the most multi-cultural, tolerant countries in the world. Brits should be proud of that identity. However, due to austerity and population growth social infrastructure has been put under immense pressure and it's impacted our daily lives. So makes sense uncontrolled movement into Britain is a concern for folk. Last time I went to hospital I sat there for 9 hours in a packed waiting room filled with majority foreign people. Families being worried about social support and facilities aren't racist and it's a groundless accusation from the other side. Folk just want control measures in place to offer a sense of reassurance.

Another sense of identity for me is that the British can rise to the challenge, plucky fighters, stiff upper lip, succeed against the odds, lead the world to new frontiers. Whatever it was that put Great into Britain. So I retain confidence in us, that we can rise to the challenge ahead, we are good at this. But all I'm hearing is we should capitulate in front of the challenge, crawl back apologising for any trouble caused. Who cares if we're not Great anymore? Who cares if we're spineless now? I'm not willing to accept that identity mate.

Obviously it’s all beyond risible and well in to ridiculous fantasy territory. Let’s just focus on the experience at the hospital though. You vote for a political party that has provided less real terms funding to the NHS than any government before and then blame immigrants for the situation. When we know immigrants are big net contributors to the Exchequer. It’s just right wing tabloid fantasy.

Evening.

More data...less real terms funding?  Is that less money to the NHS than any other government, which i doubt, or less compared the the one before or less as a pro rata due to more bodies, less money.

Trust me, as a transplant receiver I have spent more time than most in the last 8 years in hospitals all round the south west of England, and the waiting rooms i spend time in always have a disproportionate number of non English speaking people in them, certainly as their first language. I dont see the south west being hotbed of immigration in the UK, i.e., I cant imagine what it.is like in big cities, but I doubt what they put in covers what they take out...

[kukushkin88]

This whole thing comes down to the fact Britain has lost it’s identity over the last few decades

Some people care about that a lot.

Some people don’t care about that at all.

I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested in this.

What is " The whole thing" how would you define Britain's identity, and what, or who exactly has lost it?

The divide has been present throughout and in fact those differences have become more entrenched across the last two years. Several commentators have identified a generational divide between old and young and that appears to be statistically true. Rhetoric towards the 'old' has been rather condescending imo and they've been labelled racist, stubborn or stupid. Trying to look at the situation objectively I would guess that the old are more invested in the generation-defining WWII than the young. Even today look at the % of old wearing poppies vs the young. Must say that if a loved one was blown to bits fighting for certain freedoms I would be heavily invested in those freedoms, whatever the cost.

So we can take war as an example to answer your question. All those British kids who lost their lives were fighting for something, to protect certain values. Whatever those values are equals identity and it can mean different things to different people. But we do have a vivid history of entering conflicts in all corners of the world and that has created an identity. We are always told that it's vital for Britain to defend freedom from tyranny. Go to the other side of the world and throw thousands of innocent lives away along with gazillions of pounds to protect values. It would make major economic sense not to enter these conflicts. Who would care if we appear spineless?

Remain argument says people should happily and readily toss aside deeply ingrained values because of the threat of marginal economic decline. Think that's a major divide. 

Another example would be immigration. Growing up in Birmingham it was rare to see a face that wasn't white. Fast forward a few decades and there are vast swathes of the city where there are no white people at all and English isn't spoken in the shops. A very multicultural city just like many across the country, another very clear change in identity. But hey it's something that British people have embraced and we've created one of the most multi-cultural, tolerant countries in the world. Brits should be proud of that identity. However, due to austerity and population growth social infrastructure has been put under immense pressure and it's impacted our daily lives. So makes sense uncontrolled movement into Britain is a concern for folk. Last time I went to hospital I sat there for 9 hours in a packed waiting room filled with majority foreign people. Families being worried about social support and facilities aren't racist and it's a groundless accusation from the other side. Folk just want control measures in place to offer a sense of reassurance.

Another sense of identity for me is that the British can rise to the challenge, plucky fighters, stiff upper lip, succeed against the odds, lead the world to new frontiers. Whatever it was that put Great into Britain. So I retain confidence in us, that we can rise to the challenge ahead, we are good at this. But all I'm hearing is we should capitulate in front of the challenge, crawl back apologising for any trouble caused. Who cares if we're not Great anymore? Who cares if we're spineless now? I'm not willing to accept that identity mate.

Obviously it’s all beyond risible and well in to ridiculous fantasy territory. Let’s just focus on the experience at the hospital though. You vote for a political party that has provided less real terms funding to the NHS than any government before and then blame immigrants for the situation. When we know immigrants are big net contributors to the Exchequer. It’s just right wing tabloid fantasy.

Evening.

More data...less real terms funding?  Is that less money to the NHS than any other government, which i doubt, or less compared the the one before or less as a pro rata due to more bodies, less money.

Trust me, as a transplant receiver I have spent more time than most in the last 8 years in hospitals all round the south west of England, and the waiting rooms i spend time in always have a disproportionate number of non English speaking people in them, certainly as their first language. I dont see the south west being hotbed of immigration in the UK, i.e., I cant imagine what it.is like in big cities, but I doubt what they put in covers what they take out...

Obviously per capita is the only meaningful measure and ageing population will mean more resource is needed but:

Increase in funding under this government ~0.6%, average increase under all other UK government’s so far ~3.3% (that’s a massive difference) This includes massive real terms pay cuts for staff.

https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/

[kukushkin88]

funnily enough, finding it difficult to attract staff

So NHS is actively trying to recruit another 100,000 staff and the Labour bloke says this is caused by austerity?  Run that by me again?

Haha, was it Diane Abbott by chance or is there another Uber clown in their ranks? 🤣🤣🤣🤡🤡🤡

Do we think 8 years of real term pay cuts has played a part in this situation?

The financial crisis probably did of which labour would not have dealt with better than the Tories, highly likely worse as they like to piss money down the drain....

Like spending money on people to staff our hospitals? It’s kind of hard to see your point in this context, since we are taking specifically about a failure to provide funding to staff our hospitals.

The funding is there though.  They are actively recruiting.  The reason they are struggling to recruit is largely due to uncertainty over Brexit for potential overseas workers.

8 years of running something in to the ground, then providing limited emergency money once things are desperate, doesn’t count as funding something in my eyes.

Significantly increasing the NHS budget with consistently above inflation funding increases doesn’t constitute “running something into the ground”

The will never be enough money for the NHS in its current structure.

https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/

The last paragraph is quite telling.

Anyway back to the original point.....

So I'm saying the reason they are struggling to recruit because they have dramatically cut pay. Do we agree that:

1: Pay rises have been frozen at 1% since 2010?
2: Inflation in this period is 24.8%?

Anybody for a massive pay cut? Nothing to do with difficulty retaining staff and recruiting?

I guess we’re back to this.

[hhyftrftdr]

I'm still curious to know what identity has been lost for a number of decades that is suddenly going to be found again come March 2019?

[kukushkin88]

This is the great fact that Remain failed to build their campaign around and Leave lied about.

The average adult migrant from the European Economic Area yielded £2,370 more for the Treasury in 2017 than the average British-born adult did. Reducing immigration will hurt now, and in the future

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/09/26/migrants-contribute-more-to-britain-than-they-take-and-will-carry-on-doing-so

Good morning all,

Just re-quoting this for Adz (and Apez I guess) You might “doubt what they put in covers what they take out”. It looks as though using the number of foreign languages you hear in the hospital waiting room isn’t a reliable way to measure whether immigrants are net contributors to the exchequer though.

[RickBFA]

I'm still curious to know what identity has been lost for a number of decades that is suddenly going to be found again come March 2019?

I think “identity” is a red herring.

In my opinion, a big factor in the leave vote was self determination and control of our own future.

The public preferred to vote for controlling our own laws, borders etc rather than having more and more EU control, directives etc.

Generally it’s a basic human condition to want to determine our own future. Add in the EU needing reform, freedom of movement, generally disillusionment with the political establishment and you get to where we are today.

Whether you agree or not it’s at the core of why we voted leave.

[BigAdz]

This is the great fact that Remain failed to build their campaign around and Leave lied about.

The average adult migrant from the European Economic Area yielded £2,370 more for the Treasury in 2017 than the average British-born adult did. Reducing immigration will hurt now, and in the future

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/09/26/migrants-contribute-more-to-britain-than-they-take-and-will-carry-on-doing-so

Good morning all,

Just re-quoting this for Adz (and Apez I guess) You might “doubt what they put in covers what they take out”. It looks as though using the number of foreign languages you hear in the hospital waiting room isn’t a reliable way to measure whether immigrants are net contributors to the exchequer though.

Ok. If you havent digested previously what I have said about immigration, ie if you bring a skill and are willing to integrate and learn and speak our language, then yes you are spot on.

But most of these people I see, have brought relatives who translate,a nd we got back to the post earlier about the man who has brought his wife over with no intention of integrating, therefore getting a job, therefore probably taking out more than putting in.

Those are the immigrants the majority of Brexiteers want curbed.

[kukushkin88]

This is the great fact that Remain failed to build their campaign around and Leave lied about.

The average adult migrant from the European Economic Area yielded £2,370 more for the Treasury in 2017 than the average British-born adult did. Reducing immigration will hurt now, and in the future

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/09/26/migrants-contribute-more-to-britain-than-they-take-and-will-carry-on-doing-so

Good morning all,

Just re-quoting this for Adz (and Apez I guess) You might “doubt what they put in covers what they take out”. It looks as though using the number of foreign languages you hear in the hospital waiting room isn’t a reliable way to measure whether immigrants are net contributors to the exchequer though.

Ok. If you havent digested previously what I have said about immigration, ie if you bring a skill and are willing to integrate and learn and speak our language, then yes you are spot on.

But most of these people I see, have brought relatives who translate,a nd we got back to the post earlier about the man who has brought his wife over with no intention of integrating, therefore getting a job, therefore probably taking out more than putting in.

Those are the immigrants the majority of Brexiteers want curbed.

It might sound good in theory, it’s not realistic though. Means testing and vetting every potential immigrant will cost a fortune, not great when the government already won’t fund the public sector adequately. Integration will happen in time and the current system/level of immigration benefits our country and our economy.

[buffyslayer1]

This is the great fact that Remain failed to build their campaign around and Leave lied about.

The average adult migrant from the European Economic Area yielded £2,370 more for the Treasury in 2017 than the average British-born adult did. Reducing immigration will hurt now, and in the future

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/09/26/migrants-contribute-more-to-britain-than-they-take-and-will-carry-on-doing-so

Good morning all,

Just re-quoting this for Adz (and Apez I guess) You might “doubt what they put in covers what they take out”. It looks as though using the number of foreign languages you hear in the hospital waiting room isn’t a reliable way to measure whether immigrants are net contributors to the exchequer though.

Ok. If you havent digested previously what I have said about immigration, ie if you bring a skill and are willing to integrate and learn and speak our language, then yes you are spot on.

But most of these people I see, have brought relatives who translate,a nd we got back to the post earlier about the man who has brought his wife over with no intention of integrating, therefore getting a job, therefore probably taking out more than putting in.

Those are the immigrants the majority of Brexiteers want curbed.

I think its going to be asking a lot to have people coming here to work to fill skills shortages but not bring their families with them.

Also your personal experience doesn't stack up against the facts. Levels of non Uk employment are the same as UK citizen employment rates pretty much. Plus even if this did happen again the facts don't stack up on average like someone posted earlier the average adult migrant contributes more than they put in. This takes into account that small proportion of immigrants who are not integrating as you put it since its an average.

I feel like you are blindly ignoring where all the data points to based on some personal experiences, which is something we all do and is really hard to overcome.   

[TightEnd]

John Major says leading Brexiteers will never be forgiven

[TightEnd]

The full list of no deal notices and whether they:

- require new legislation (50+)
- require a 'side deal' w/ EU (25+)
- require new IT systems/processes (50+)

And then there's a big long list for businesses...

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/charts/what-government-needs-do-prepare-no-deal-brexit

[TightEnd]

This isn't sounding too optimistic for the summit in the next 48 hours

May is there too, meeting them all day

[TightEnd]

Will Hutton‏
 
(political economist and writer)


"This is the most profound crisis of my adult life. Davis,Johnson,Rees-Mogg and the DUP are taking an entire country into prolonged stagnation& social division for fantasies.

a brutal economic contraction - 5% of GDP - blighting the future of the young - from which Rees-Mogg BoJo et al will be personally insulated.. The ultimate selfishness

May can’t face them down. Labour plays games. "

[TightEnd]

Could the EU have erred in insisting on a backstop in the withdrawal agreement?

Will the price of this insistence be a disorderly Brexit?

FT

https://www.ft.com/content/0df6434e-d12c-11e8-a9f2-7574db66bcd5

[TightEnd]

Eight Cabinet ministers meet for 'pizza plot' to block Theresa May's Brexit strategy

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/news/99100/eight-cabinet-ministers-meet-pizza-plot

my thought: waiting for the first domino(s) to fall