The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[nirvana]

I'm a Labour voter and of course this is all a mess of the Tories' doing but pointing out that Labour are fucking useless and contributing to this mess isn't saying it's their fault.

Haha, excellent, that sounds like me.

[Mark_Porter]

Michael Gove

A senior brexiteer responds to his decision to stay on gvt: “Michael’s wrestling bouts with his conscience constitute the longest winning streak in British sporting history.”

[kukushkin88]

I don't know if the line that this was the only deal possible is true. But it's pretty certain that this is the only deal possible now given the time left - there is no possible way that any debate in parliament could reach a consensus that gave negotiators a clear set of changes required that would then ensure it got voted through.

It feels like the 4 week wait before a vote is pretty sensible as it gives the cockends (excellent) time to think through the consequences of voting this down.

If it goes the way of no deal and it is disastrous it will be interesting to see which party suffers the most electorally. My money would be on Labour suffering most - it looks like they want to vote this down for the devilment of it and I think their tactical rather than principled position on Brexit for the last 2 years is going to hurt them quite badly

What leads you to the conclusion that they’d be voting it down for ‘devilment’? It just seems convenient to think that, rather than evidence based. Why would they be voting it down for devilment, rather than the more obvious reason that it’s an incredibly shit deal that only Adz in the whole country (including May herself) seems to like.

What is shit about it specifically, genuine question, I'm interested. . If you take the view that leaving is totally the wrong thing and a disaster (perfectly reasonable position) how does this deal make the fact we are leaving worse ? I mean it can't, can it

I’ll have to rejoin this later or tomorrow :-(.  Basically it just kicks the massive problems further down the road. While ensuring we pass the point of no return, having still paid no meaningful attention to the aforementioned problems.

[kukushkin88]

I don't know if the line that this was the only deal possible is true. But it's pretty certain that this is the only deal possible now given the time left - there is no possible way that any debate in parliament could reach a consensus that gave negotiators a clear set of changes required that would then ensure it got voted through.

It feels like the 4 week wait before a vote is pretty sensible as it gives the cockends (excellent) time to think through the consequences of voting this down.

If it goes the way of no deal and it is disastrous it will be interesting to see which party suffers the most electorally. My money would be on Labour suffering most - it looks like they want to vote this down for the devilment of it and I think their tactical rather than principled position on Brexit for the last 2 years is going to hurt them quite badly

What leads you to the conclusion that they’d be voting it down for ‘devilment’? It just seems convenient to think that, rather than evidence based. Why would they be voting it down for devilment, rather than the more obvious reason that it’s an incredibly shit deal that only Adz in the whole country (including May herself) seems to like.

What is shit about it specifically, genuine question, I'm interested. . If you take the view that leaving is totally the wrong thing and a disaster (perfectly reasonable position) how does this deal make the fact we are leaving worse ? I mean it can't, can it

I’ll have to rejoin this later or tomorrow :-(.  Basically it just kicks the massive problems further down the road. While ensuring we pass the point of no return, having still paid no meaningful attention to the aforementioned problems.

and there’ll still be massive problems in the short term and no one (other than Adz) seems to have got anything that they wanted.

Caveat: It’s entirely possible that the voices of those who are pleased with the deal can’t be heard in the racket.

[TightEnd]

someone talking sense

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1063397578920869891

[Pokerpops]

someone talking sense

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1063397578920869891

I am shocked to find myself admitting this, but Tony Blair’s piece in the Telegraph today is, ummm, worth a read.
The key sentences for me

“You can do Brexit in a way that honours the mandate of Brexit, but that will mean breaking cleanly from the single market and customs union and it will cause - at least short term and arguably for much longer - real economic disruption.
Or you can stay.
But what is completely pointless is to do a Brexit in name only...”

[ripple11]

Paddy Power.....


GEOFFREY BOYCOTT TO RECEIVE A KNIGHTHOOD IN 2018? 10/1

 

[ripple11]

May is defeated on vote.....heavy odds on atm
EU wont budge on deal.....ditto
Parliament wont allow a no deal brexit .....certainty
 So is the only option is for parliament to extend Article 50 and have another referendum?

A SECOND IN/OUT EU REFERENDUM TO TAKE PLACE BEFORE END 2019
No  1/2         Yes 13/8

[Mark_Porter]

So the country primarily voted leave because:-

Sovereignty - we wanted to make our own decisions

Immigration - we wanted to take control of our borders

Can someone, in laymans terms, explain how the deal that is on the table does or doesn't tick those boxes?

[BigAdz]

I don't know if the line that this was the only deal possible is true. But it's pretty certain that this is the only deal possible now given the time left - there is no possible way that any debate in parliament could reach a consensus that gave negotiators a clear set of changes required that would then ensure it got voted through.

It feels like the 4 week wait before a vote is pretty sensible as it gives the cockends (excellent) time to think through the consequences of voting this down.

If it goes the way of no deal and it is disastrous it will be interesting to see which party suffers the most electorally. My money would be on Labour suffering most - it looks like they want to vote this down for the devilment of it and I think their tactical rather than principled position on Brexit for the last 2 years is going to hurt them quite badly

What leads you to the conclusion that they’d be voting it down for ‘devilment’? It just seems convenient to think that, rather than evidence based. Why would they be voting it down for devilment, rather than the more obvious reason that it’s an incredibly shit deal that only Adz in the whole country (including May herself) seems to like.

Oh dear.

Yet another misquote.

I said her version on the radio sounded fine.....read the rest before you misquote again.

No wonder your views are so strange if you only take from comments what you want to........

[BigAdz]

Always laugh at those that suggest a deal was never possible.

None of us know how bad a negotiator TM is/was, and I for one suspect the mass resignations tell us that she has been pretty damn poor.

One wonders if even a half decent used car salesman could have done a better job.......

Not sure how I think this was good deal Kush.......you sir are an arse.

[kukushkin88]

Always laugh at those that suggest a deal was never possible.

None of us know how bad a negotiator TM is/was, and I for one suspect the mass resignations tell us that she has been pretty damn poor.

One wonders if even a half decent used car salesman could have done a better job.......

I don't think there was more available at any point, but seriously, what more do you (or anyone) think a better negotiator could have got?

I really don't know.

I listened on the way home to TM laying out what she has achieved. It seemed to tick all the boxes for me, but I don't know the detail. But  therein lies the obvious weakness, in what she is claiming as a victory yet Brexiteers are leaving toot sweet.

A bit like my golf club got burgled last night and hundreds of years worth of memorabilia and trophies nicked. Our club secretary said we could have done nothing else, we had an alarm system. However members have today found out it was the cheapest on the market and had minimal cctv coverage......get my drift.....

It seemed to tick all the boxes for you. I don’t know why it’s funny to be called Sir and ‘an arse’ but it is :-)

[BigAdz]

Always laugh at those that suggest a deal was never possible.

None of us know how bad a negotiator TM is/was, and I for one suspect the mass resignations tell us that she has been pretty damn poor.

One wonders if even a half decent used car salesman could have done a better job.......

I don't think there was more available at any point, but seriously, what more do you (or anyone) think a better negotiator could have got?

I really don't know.

I listened on the way home to TM laying out what she has achieved. It seemed to tick all the boxes for me, but I don't know the detail. But  therein lies the obvious weakness, in what she is claiming as a victory yet Brexiteers are leaving toot sweet.

A bit like my golf club got burgled last night and hundreds of years worth of memorabilia and trophies nicked. Our club secretary said we could have done nothing else, we had an alarm system. However members have today found out it was the cheapest on the market and had minimal cctv coverage......get my drift.....

It seemed to tick all the boxes for you. I don’t know why it’s funny to be called Sir and ‘an arse’ but it is :-)

Because I'm polite, and you are!!!

As you can read(and not twist) I said I heard her state headlines in the car, whilst driving, which sounded fine, but without the detail I wasn't sure, but if you do only read the few words you will be misinformed, as you clearly do quite often....sir!

You clearly then didn't read the subsequent posts either as you made the same comment in a later post.......you arse...

Thank you.

[booder]

.

[TightEnd]

So the country primarily voted leave because:-

Sovereignty - we wanted to make our own decisions

Immigration - we wanted to take control of our borders

Can someone, in laymans terms, explain how the deal that is on the table does or doesn't tick those boxes?

Sovereignty. What applied in Locke's economic theory for individuals also applies for states. By being in the EU you give up sme sovereignty in exchange for a seat in the trade bloc. A Hard Brexiteer wants complete sovereignty but some struggle to accept that by doing that you lose frictionless trade, amongst other things

For this deal, which is a "Brexit in  name only" or "soft brexit" through an undefined transition stage and probably thereafter (feared to be permanent by those against it) you are still subject to the ECJ and other EU bodies. This in reality is because these are globally accepted institutions but its anthema to a hard brextieer

The funny thing is the argument "by being in this deal we lose soveriegnty" there by implying that in the EU you have some!

Immigration has not as far as i have seen been mentioned as a negative with regard to this deal, far less contentious than sovereignty in this case.