The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[DungBeetle]

Anyone who thinks there is a lot of poverty in this country (some politician was even saying 15 mill the other day) needs to get their arse over to India or somewhere similar for a reality check and a benchmark as to what real poverty is.......

They aren’t interested in the truth.  The term “poverty” has been childishly cannibalised over the last decade by the Left and it just hinders debate.

Loads of people are interested in the truth and think the massive inequality should be addressed. No one should live in poverty in the 5th richest country in the world. In your opinion is there a way this can be achieved?

Of course it can be achieved.  Scandanavian levels of tax where everyone pays more and the rich doubly so.

But on poverty you’ve made my point for me in your post by interchanging poverty and inequality.  When you say poverty are you referring to relative or absolute poverty?   They probably need different government policy to address.

The figures I cited were for relative poverty.

https://www.norden.org/en/news/increasing-income-inequality-nordics

In that case in answer to your question  I’d imagine it is undesirable to have zero people in relative poverty.  What would that income distribution look like?   You’d be moving into the ideology of communism?

  However 12 million(or whatever the UK number is is a worrying number and reflects a society that isn’t working.  To reform that though needs a change in mindset for all.  Yes, tax the higher earners more but you also need to ramp up tax burden on the 30k to 70k earners as well.  Reduce personal allowance to 2k.  VAT at 25%.  Higher band rates in the mid sixties.   It might well be the right thing to do but I wouldn’t fancy my chances with the electorate.

[StuartHopkin]

What is the level that means someone is classed as being in poverty?

Is it the 60% of the median household income, found that on a quick google....

Depends if you want to be dishonest and drop “relative” from the description “relative poverty” because you want to do some obvious political point scoring?  If so then yes that is your poverty definition.

?

No point scoring.

I set the wage for 90 people, I wouldn't like to think any of them are in the poverty bracket.

[Pokerpops]

The definition of poverty is a blunt instrument that as mentioned has been hijacked by the left.

I know a lady who has income of around £1,000 per month. She lives happily on it and wants for nothing she needs. She also happens to have £700k in investments that she doesn’t touch and a house she owns outright.

She would fall into the income definition of poverty when she couldn’t be further than poverty stricken.

This is meaningless. About as useful as saying all the poor people spend all their money on booze fags and watching subscription TV channels on 55” screens.

So she has no mortgage? Does she have children to support?
She wants for nothing she needs - what does that even mean? What are her needs?

[RickBFA]

The definition of poverty is a blunt instrument that as mentioned has been hijacked by the left.

I know a lady who has income of around £1,000 per month. She lives happily on it and wants for nothing she needs. She also happens to have £700k in investments that she doesn’t touch and a house she owns outright.

She would fall into the income definition of poverty when she couldn’t be further than poverty stricken.

This is meaningless. About as useful as saying all the poor people spend all their money on booze fags and watching subscription TV channels on 55” screens.

So she has no mortgage? Does she have children to support?
She wants for nothing she needs - what does that even mean? What are her needs?

It means she has a basic lifestyle that she is happy with.

I was trying to demonstrate that income isn’t the only factor. It also depends how you define poverty. The dictionary definition is “extremely poor.”

Like it or not, lifestyle has an impact on putting a roof over your head, getting enough to eat etc.

[Sheriff Fatman]

right back for the election results tomorrow

who wants to guess the Brexit Party vote share?

closest wins a banana


i will start,37%

32%.  Suspect that remain turnout was relatively higher than the leave one, so they’ll be towards the lower end of expectations.

Wouldn’t be surprised to see Lib Dems 2nd overall in vote share.

Thanks to Tighty for posting this graphic the other day.

Personally I think it looks better sitting next to this quote 

[Woodsey]

Yep arguments always carry more weight when they’re true

 

[DungBeetle]

What is the level that means someone is classed as being in poverty?

Is it the 60% of the median household income, found that on a quick google....

Depends if you want to be dishonest and drop “relative” from the description “relative poverty” because you want to do some obvious political point scoring?  If so then yes that is your poverty definition.

?

No point scoring.

I set the wage for 90 people, I wouldn't like to think any of them are in the poverty bracket.

Sorry wasn’t aimed at you.  More a general grumble at the merging of absolute/relative poverty when quoting stats which prevents proper debate (in my view).

[TightEnd]

Decision of District Judge Margot Coleman in Ball v Boris Johnson delivered at Westminster MC https://bit.ly/2EGjgxP

interesting read

[TightEnd]

another good chart, FT

"The squeeze on major parties continues, as voters opt for clearer or harder Brexit messages. Hard Brexit groups gained, but big winners were anti-Brexit parties, whose share doubled."

[TightEnd]

speaking yesterday

"Unless UK never wants to trade with the EU again, it will have to enter negotations even if there is no deal. And the top three things the EU will demand are:

1. the money
2. EU citizens
3. Irish border"

Prof Sara Hobolt, Sutherland chair European institutions, LSE

[TightEnd]

We should beware saying "there is only one option left", but here's Finkelstein

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/there-s-no-avoiding-election-or-a-second-vote-8rqn087zt

[TightEnd]

There is another half-option, which is further delay, but a new PM will have to make a choice by 2022 election deadline

[TightEnd]

What both major parties badly need is a way to move politics beyond the Remain-Leave binary – but it is not at all clear that any such way forward can be found says Bush

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/05/why-labour-and-tories-have-no-future-parties-defined-brexit

[TightEnd]

this is worth 4 mins of your time

subtitled so can be watched at work

its been out 15 hours and haven't seen a debunk of his arguments re cars and agriculture yet

Impressive man, no doubt set to go far whatever happens in this contest

Stewart "advocating for no deal is neither democratic or patriotic."

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1133813666992787456

[Sheriff Fatman]

I like this Rory Stewart guy.

His videos are endearing and I like the language he uses.

Purposefully not looking at his past voting record as assume he voted to kill poor people or something. He seems nice. Does he have a chance?

The type of Conservative that appeals to non conservatives. The new Ruth Davidson

I like him, refreshingly different approach. Surely can't win but who knows

We like Rory


Later he tells an anecdote from Afghanistan. He was in a blizzard following 9/11, “completely lost.” “Suddenly I saw bumping towards me two big Toyota Land Cruisers. The electric window came down, and there was an SAS guy who served with me in the Balkans. He stuck his head out and said: ‘You are a f**king nutter.’ And then wound up the window and drove off.”

I worked on a project with Rory Stewart in 2013/14-ish.

Very down to earth and easy going, gave the impression that he was just one of the lads, which in my book is the mark of a true aristocrat

I would vote for him

I think he's the one candidate who non-Tory supporters could see as not being a complete disaster as PM.  I like him as he genuinely tries to answer questions when put to him, which is unusual for a politician.

Sadly, he's too credible for the Tory leadership process to ever elect him, so we'll end up with one of the other idiots.