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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2396665 times)
nirvana
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« Reply #17880 on: June 05, 2019, 06:48:57 AM »

I posted this a few days back and didn't any response, but I am genuinely curious. Why does the Tory leadership contest need to take so long?

Can we not simply have two weeks of them campaigning to get MP's votes, then two weeks of whittling those candidates down to 2 and getting that done too? 10 candidates to 1. Yo could whittle them down each day! Done by the end of this month, rather than next month.

As the EU said at the last extension, don't waste your time, we simply will have had 3 months of no progress by the end of July....

It does seem ridiculous..and they think they're acting quickly. I assume they want to look considered.
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« Reply #17881 on: June 05, 2019, 07:41:00 AM »

Been furiously Googling and can’t nail down why all racists set fire to money!
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« Reply #17882 on: June 05, 2019, 07:56:14 AM »

I posted this a few days back and didn't any response, but I am genuinely curious. Why does the Tory leadership contest need to take so long?

Can we not simply have two weeks of them campaigning to get MP's votes, then two weeks of whittling those candidates down to 2 and getting that done too? 10 candidates to 1. Yo could whittle them down each day! Done by the end of this month, rather than next month.

As the EU said at the last extension, don't waste your time, we simply will have had 3 months of no progress by the end of July....

It does seem ridiculous..and they think they're acting quickly. I assume they want to look considered.

It’s a system that works better in the relative obscurity/privacy of opposition and to some extent it’s designed for that. It’s far from ideal when time is of the essence.
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« Reply #17883 on: June 05, 2019, 07:57:07 AM »

I posted this a few days back and didn't any response, but I am genuinely curious. Why does the Tory leadership contest need to take so long?

Can we not simply have two weeks of them campaigning to get MP's votes, then two weeks of whittling those candidates down to 2 and getting that done too? 10 candidates to 1. Yo could whittle them down each day! Done by the end of this month, rather than next month.

As the EU said at the last extension, don't waste your time, we simply will have had 3 months of no progress by the end of July....

Nah, we need maximum wind up time for the lefties before Boris is finally crowned 

Yeah, consecutive Conservative PM’s resigning in tearful disgrace and the shambolic squabbling clown troupe that are paraded to decide who will do it next is tough on us lefties.
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« Reply #17884 on: June 05, 2019, 08:02:11 AM »

I posted this a few days back and didn't any response, but I am genuinely curious. Why does the Tory leadership contest need to take so long?

Can we not simply have two weeks of them campaigning to get MP's votes, then two weeks of whittling those candidates down to 2 and getting that done too? 10 candidates to 1. Yo could whittle them down each day! Done by the end of this month, rather than next month.

As the EU said at the last extension, don't waste your time, we simply will have had 3 months of no progress by the end of July....

Nah, we need maximum wind up time for the lefties before Boris is finally crowned 

Yeah, consecutive Conservative PM’s resigning in tearful disgrace and the shambolic squabbling clown troupe that are paraded to decide who will do it next is tough on us lefties.

Even tougher when you still can’t get into power and can’t stop Brexit despite the shambles  Boris as PM will finish you lot off, the hum of whining will be off the charts! 
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« Reply #17885 on: June 05, 2019, 08:44:00 AM »

Been furiously Googling and can’t nail down why all racists set fire to money!

It’s just pathetic trolling, from a man who was recently (hilariously) held up as an exemplar of reasonable debate.
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« Reply #17886 on: June 05, 2019, 09:43:17 AM »

I posted this a few days back and didn't any response, but I am genuinely curious. Why does the Tory leadership contest need to take so long?

Can we not simply have two weeks of them campaigning to get MP's votes, then two weeks of whittling those candidates down to 2 and getting that done too? 10 candidates to 1. Yo could whittle them down each day! Done by the end of this month, rather than next month.

As the EU said at the last extension, don't waste your time, we simply will have had 3 months of no progress by the end of July....

It does seem ridiculous..and they think they're acting quickly. I assume they want to look considered.

It’s a system that works better in the relative obscurity/privacy of opposition and to some extent it’s designed for that. It’s far from ideal when time is of the essence.
True dat. Also, listening to the radio today, the bulk of the time, 4 weeks or so, is to poll the membership.. Seems reasonable now I think about it a bit more
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« Reply #17887 on: June 05, 2019, 10:26:58 AM »

Been furiously Googling and can’t nail down why all racists set fire to money!

It’s just pathetic trolling, from a man who was recently (hilariously) held up as an exemplar of reasonable debate.

If all economically astute folk vote Remain and all racists vote Leave how are all racists illogical and financially naive?

You presented this position but can’t justify.

Squealing about trolling doesn’t help validate
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« Reply #17888 on: June 05, 2019, 10:30:31 AM »

the Wikipedia opinion poll graph has been updated

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#Graphical_summary

won't see many graphs like this in politics
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« Reply #17889 on: June 05, 2019, 10:31:49 AM »

No-deal Brexit would be economic lunacy, say UK manufacturers

quite interesting that they waded into the leadership contest, with of course some of the candidates prepared to go against the warning

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jun/03/no-deal-brexit-would-be-economic-lunacy-say-make-uk-manufacturers
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« Reply #17890 on: June 05, 2019, 10:32:54 AM »

Also interesting that this appeared on Conservative Home

"There’s no majority in this Commons for anything. This Conservative contest is faltering because candidates won’t face that fact."

really is a very good read

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/06/theres-no-majority-in-this-commons-for-anything-this-election-is-faltering-because-candidates-wont-face-that-fact.html
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« Reply #17891 on: June 05, 2019, 10:33:36 AM »

Been furiously Googling and can’t nail down why all racists set fire to money!

It’s just pathetic trolling, from a man who was recently (hilariously) held up as an exemplar of reasonable debate.

As small but important point- The debate was held up as an example of reasonable debate.
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« Reply #17892 on: June 05, 2019, 10:34:44 AM »

No-deal Brexit would be economic lunacy, say UK manufacturers

quite interesting that they waded into the leadership contest, with of course some of the candidates prepared to go against the warning

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jun/03/no-deal-brexit-would-be-economic-lunacy-say-make-uk-manufacturers

and more

"The fact that this isn’t bigger news says a lot about recent politics, including how little force such warnings have for many people. The concept of ‘Project Fear’ is powerful and convinces many to discount warnings like today’s as mere scaremongering and shroud-waving. To a lot of people, no deal holds no fear and should be positively embraced. A lot of those people have a vote on who becomes our next Prime Minister."

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/05/the-question-that-no-deal-brexiteers-must-answer/
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« Reply #17893 on: June 05, 2019, 10:47:45 AM »

Been furiously Googling and can’t nail down why all racists set fire to money!

It’s just pathetic trolling, from a man who was recently (hilariously) held up as an exemplar of reasonable debate.

If all economically astute folk vote Remain and all racists vote Leave how are all racists illogical and financially naive?

You presented this position but can’t justify.

Squealing about trolling doesn’t help validate

The first sentence is something you completely made up, isn’t close to making sense and is not remotely close to anything I have ever said. If you don’t understand that is a shame, unfortunately it’s something I don’t really have sufficient time to help with atm. If you do understand, you are a troll.
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« Reply #17894 on: June 05, 2019, 10:48:39 AM »

The newly appointed Leader of the Conservative Party and Prime Minister sits alone in 10 Downing Street.

After a frenzied leadership campaign, he/she was elected by the Party on a promise to renegotiate the Irish backstop or go for No Deal.

It’s the middle of September and in a month’s time the leaders of the EU member states meet for the final European Summit before the end of the extension period.

The re-negotiations, such as they were, have stalled. Now the new PM must decide what to do

The arguments in favour of No Deal have been endlessly promoted. The problem is that each is flawed. It was always very unlikely the substantial amendment of the backstop could be negotiated whatever the personal qualities of the PM. Even before Theresa May’s resignation, there was not a scintilla of evidence the EU would materially compromise its red line. However, some continue to profess that no deal contains nothing to be scared about.

This has been disputed by a formidable host of opponents, including most economists, the Government’s own economic analysis, and the civil service’s apparent warning of risks incl food price rises, a fall in sterling and a potential dislocation of the stability of the union.

No matter though, the will of the people must be respected and the UK must leave irrespective of the consequences. then again the Leave campaign assumed a deal with the EU and never really suggested any material adverse impact. After all, that was Project Fear and many voters did not believe it.

The new PM ponders.  Unsurprisingly, nothing has really changed between May and October, not the political landscape, not the composition of the House of Commons, not the negotiations, not the endless wrangling between Leave and Remain, but he/she has been elected after firmly supporting No Deal, the strong preference of a large majority of Conservative party members and a majority of Conservative voters.

Surely the choice must be No Deal?

But of course the decision is not and will not be straightforward.

The negative consequences of No Deal will not have changed. Whoever is PM, No Deal will still be opposed by a majority of MPs, a minority of Conservative MPs, a majority of the public, and most major business organisations.

And now the new PM will need to consider the most difficult of questions although one that is, strangely, rarely asked.

Does No Deal make the UK more likely to get its desired deal?

The answer is no.  No Deal’s fatal flaw is that it is not an end in itself. It is not even a means to an end. After a no deal you still have to negotiate. The EU has been categorically clear that after No Deal the focus of the negotiations would remain on the principal parts of the Withdrawal Agreement, including the backstop.

As the negotiations become even more tortuous and the negative consequences of No Deal further evident, who will receive the lion’s share of the blame?

The public will not need to look far. No Deal may have eased the electoral threat from the Brexit Party but if and when it all goes wrong neither the new PM nor the Conservative Party will be popular.What chance then of winning the next General Election?

So what does our beleaguered PM do?  Elected on a No Deal platform, confronted with the reality of No Deal, stuck between a rock and a hard place. He or she may pick up their pen, frown pensively, and draft two speeches - one for a General Election, the other for a Referendum. Or a third.....as neither of those two is palatable, the third speech may be "revoke". The outsider of the three options, for sure but unless you are prepared to accept losing an election badly (they surely would) or leave winning another referendum (it might well do, but still no "good" way to leave after that) there are very little in the way of places to turn.

Enjoy ripping this to shreds  Kiss





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